Why not an ingame damage tracker?

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doubt it, but would be kind of nice for us ps3(and/or soon to be 4) users. but, you could always go back through the battle log and calculate your own damage for the fight... would be a HUGE PITA, but it's doable if you do desire..

Because there's no point to it. You can judge by someones gear if they can potentially put out enough damage or not. Actually being able to measure that will do nothing short of shunning people or having it be used as a reason to attack or exclude people.

So no. Not only would i not want this in the game. I'd like everyone who does use programs like that to be dragged out of their houses and be executed infront of their families. Or at the very least banned from the game over it.

It will just make an already hostile and toxic endgame more of a disaster.

We don't need elitist behavior by people that happened to be on the top of the DPS chart. No.

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Originally Posted by ElenaKirei

We don't need elitist behavior by people that happened to be on the top of the DPS chart. No.

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This is why we can't have nice things.

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Originally Posted by Surian

Because there's no point to it. You can judge by someones gear if they can potentially put out enough damage or not.

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Not true. Too many people think Gear = Skill and it doesn't. I've seen some pretty decked out dps in this game put out some really bad damage.

SE did talk about adding something to the game to allow players to create add ons for the game, they had talked about implementing it around 6 months after launch which is around now-ish so hopefully they will actually follow through with it.

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Originally Posted by Denver_Max

everyone knows the ToS does not approve of parsers like ffxiv-app and the like, why doesn't SE incorporate a damage list in game, possibly at the end of battle. Anyone who has participated in PvP knows it tells you your damage, so why not one for the main game? It would keep people from violating ToS, and probably promote trying harder in game. Thoughts?

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They've said we'll eventually get a WoW style UI customization and plugins eventually. Just wait until then.

I am highly in support of this.

If people get chastised and rediculed because they aren't doing enough DPS, then they will either start doing enough DPS or stop playing with jerks.

Then the jerks who are awesome at the game will play together and be jerks, and the people who suck will play with nice people or other people who suck.

I hate the argument that parsers create a toxic environment. That's like saying a stop-watch caused a fight between two runners. The stop watch didn't do anything. Leave the stop watch alone.

The sole reason SE doesn't "allow" parsers so bad players don't get called out on with actual numbers.

Damage meters have their place in games like this, it points out the strong and weak points of your group, just because someone has the gear, doesn't mean they are playing up to their gear, they may suck at the class, or they could just be being lazy. "Elitist" behavior will always exist, die to plumes you get kicked, this is the same thing, but what is wrong with expecting people to do their part, and having something that shows either they are or aren't. Like not being able to dodge though, the people that can't do the damage will just blame it on lag, but the rest of the group will know what's really going on, and either get that person to step it up or replace them. Any game that has any type of enrage timers or dps races built into content damage meters have plenty of use.

As for add ons, I doubt this game will see them any time soon, if ever, it's true we were told we would have them, but this community has been told lots of stuff that hasn't panned out. They do everything they can to "stop" RMTs, and add ons will end up highlighting weak points in the games coding that we aren't supposed to know about.

If you can't figure out for yourself why this would be a bad idea, and why it would be so unfitting in the type of game that ARR is, then I can't help you.

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Originally Posted by Surian

I hate being able to see how I performed compared to others. Trying to maximize my own performance shouldn't be a concern at all. People that tell me I did poorly should die

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That's an intense over reaction you've got going on there.

I think an in-game tool that provides *accurate* numbers would be fantastic. If you find yourself getting harassed for putting out sub-par damage, instead of saying that people point out your under performance why not ask them if they know what you should be doing to improve? Why not check out the Damage role forums some day? There's usually a topic on the first page talking about whatever class it is you may play. The toxic environment isn't just caused by players lording over people that don't know how to play well -- the players that don't know how to play their class properly and freak out when you offer them any guidance are part of the issue too.

I know, I know -- you like just spamming fire III because big numbers. It's still wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

Sound logic

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This is a great example of why a parser is useful.

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Originally Posted by KenzieLynch

If you can't figure out for yourself why this would be a bad idea, and why it would be so unfitting in the type of game that ARR is, then I can't help you.

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It isn't a bad idea. If the numbers were built into the game, then people would know where they stand. What ever happened to wanted to do well? What's so wrong with seeing that you aren't doing well and feeling a drive to do better? Are people actually happy with being the bottom of the barrel?

Personally, there already is an in-game damage parser.

When the final boss dies, that means the DPS was satisfactory. :3

Any game that has dps checks on fights should have a parser to help people better their own play and to help teams build effective combinations for fights. If this was a puzzle game with dps as a side focus than, yes, I could understand the clamor for not having a parser, but it is not. The players who always vehemently stand against parsers can play with people who do not value the feedback they give, but there is no reason to deny the whole community a parse because you are afraid of being called out for being sub par.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

Personally, there already is an in-game damage parser.

When the final boss dies, that means the DPS was satisfactory. :3

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Some people want to know who wasn't pulling their weight when the final boss doesn't die so the issue can be fixed.

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Originally Posted by Seig345

Personally, there already is an in-game damage parser.

When the final boss dies, that means the DPS was satisfactory. :3

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This is true of easy content. It was important to know who was pulling their weight and who wasn't when we were progressing through coil in average item levels of 60-65. The use of them also helped find meaningful number for gear choices to maximize output.

What about a personal parser for each player that shows them their own DPS, but you can check or uncheck it to share with your Group, FC, or Alliance at will?

It's quite clear that no one would EVER use a parser to check their own dps and try to work out how to improve it.

Parsers are obviously just there so you can ridicule other people with low dps.

Obviously.

I agree, as it stands now from a personal point of view the segregation already is happening. Open your party finder, what do you see?

"Experienced players only..."
iLvl requirements well above the required or necessary.

It's mostly passive aggressive elitism alongside the obvious elitists.

I would personally like an in game dps read out in detail because I like to improve myself, but have nothing for comparative data. I will probably leave this game if the UI ends up bloated like WoW.

I'm supportive of certain UI graces from third parties, but in WoW it got so bad if you didn't use xx add on then your pve/pvp experience was at a disadvantage of someone who did. It then becomes less about player skill, but who has the right add ons doing the work for them.

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Originally Posted by Surian

Because there's no point to it. You can judge by someones gear if they can potentially put out enough damage or not. Actually being able to measure that will do nothing short of shunning people or having it be used as a reason to attack or exclude people.

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Really. It will do nothing else? There are actually legitimate uses for parsers, you should know, including monitoring the efforts of your damage dealers during a dps check to better target improvements, post-fight analyses of damage done to the raid paired with healing done to keep track of overheals and assist in better timing preparatory spells, having an easy-access record of what exactly killed someone and by how much, and more.

Blame the people who use the tool badly, not the tool.

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Originally Posted by Miitan

It's quite clear that no one would EVER use a parser to check their own dps and try to work out how to improve it.

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^That one, too!

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Originally Posted by Miitan

Oh dear, are you from the US?

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Eh? Why?

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

What about a personal parser for each player that shows them their own DPS, but you can check or uncheck it to share with your Group, FC, or Alliance at will?

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I was thinking something along these lines. That takes care of the "I wanna see how I'm doing" issue.

The problem with this whole parser vs no parser thing, is it tends to boil down to the same thing as the forum White Knight vs Troll arguments, where both sides simply slap the respective labels on each other and ultimately make no progress in the argument. Here, it's elitist jerks vs slackers. You're inevitably going to have elitist jerks who are gonna start sniffing at people who don't meet whatever 'standard' they set as 'necessary' for a dungeon, kinda like the whole iLvl 90's only thing. Meanwhile you'll also have people who don't want to be told how to play the game.

Maybe it should just be FC only. PUGs are going to be hit or miss, and you're going to find yourself 'needing' that parser to tell people what's what in just about every single PUG. FCs are going to be the only setting where you're going to see any real 'progress' from using the parser to see someone else's DPS. In PUGs it's likely to just be used as a means of deciding who should be vote kicked, which isn't going to teach people to 'play better', it's just going to teach them to hate harder.

The 'Well then the 'elitists' and 'slackers' can just stay away from each other' bit doesn't quite work with SE wanting as little player division as possible. That's why PS3 (and soon PS4) and PC can play together, and that's why the in-progress button on the DF is an inclusive option, not an exclusive one.

While I don't want parser to ruin people's experience, I don't want mine to be ruined either.
When there's dps race in bosses, i need to know who aren't meeting the standard.

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Originally Posted by Naunet

^That one, too!

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Oh dear, are you from the US?

DPS meters ruin MMO's, so no i wouldn't like to see this added.

There will never be in game parsers, they've already spoken on this. Going by what they have said, if there ever are in game parsers, they will only parse YOUR damage. They want to avoid the whole "DPS Meter: The Game" mentality that has a tendency to ruin people's ability to actually enjoy the game because they are too busy trying to top a pointless meter.

You may have noticed that the game has a very very high emphasis on movement and dodging, it's a seldom occurrence for a fight to allow you to stand there and mash buttons for "deeps".

I'll tell you that I'd rather have my members focused on the game, not constantly trying to be number 1 on a meter and losing focus as a result.

And parsing after a fight does what exactly? Makes several people feel like crap, and inflates one idiot's ego. I can tell without parsers whether or not dps is sufficient. I'm surprised you can't.

While parsers can be awesome, Yoshi-P will probably not add them for the reasons many people have said in this thread. His design philosophy is all about making sure the players feel comfortable while playing the game. Because there is a chance someone could be rude while looking at an in-game parser for their party and yelling at another player, I doubt this will ever be added. SE will be opening up the game for 3rd party tools, but I have a feeling parsers still won't be acceptable. If you really want to know your group's dmg output, use a parser and play roulette with the ban hammer.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

You may have noticed that the game has a very very high emphasis on movement and dodging, it's a seldom occurrence for a fight to allow you to stand there and mash buttons for "deeps".

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The game does have dps checks, however, which is one spot where parsers can shine in usefulness. That said, it's also not the only use for them.

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Originally Posted by Anatha

I can tell without parsers whether or not dps is sufficient. I'm surprised you can't.

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I'm sorry for not able to keep track of all their buff, dots and combo properly?

Any sort of parse is by itself unreliable.

People would, in for instance XI, measure their damage output and those of others, not taking into account that:

A) They did not mention that they were parsing. So they themselves would blow all their abilities all the time and eat food while others would pace them out as normal.
B) The person parsing would have a higher damage output they would show-off on boards all over, disregarding that they never dodged an attack since they would stop attacking for a moment, went so wild they would (almost) pull hate off a tank and generally would waste the healer's MP by needing to cure bomb them to keep them alive.

Not to mention all sorts of factors a parse doesnt include.

We dont want this. We can tell with ease who is up to the task and who is not.

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Originally Posted by Denver_Max

If that were the case then Titan EX wouldn't exist.

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I don't understand how this is a counter-point. Titan EX is not a mandatory part of the game; a dmg parser would be applicable to any instanced run you do and someone who doesn't like your performance could potentially be rude to you about it. No one is going to be rude to you if you decide not to do Titan EX.

The design philosophy is not about making the game easy, though most things in the game are, it's about making sure players don't feel...what am I looking for...safe(?) while playing the game. It's the reason we still aren't able to send /tells while in an instance and why it took so long for us to get the vote kick feature.

There will be in-game damage parsers once the UI addon toolkit is released.

As to when that will happen, well...

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Originally Posted by Surian

A) They did not mention that they were parsing. So they themselves would blow all their abilities all the time and eat food while others would pace them out as normal.
B) The person parsing would have a higher damage output they would show-off on boards all over, disregarding that they never dodged an attack since they would stop attacking for a moment, went so wild they would (almost) pull hate off a tank and generally would waste the healer's MP by needing to cure bomb them to keep them alive.

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A)You have the ability to use food and dps cooldowns, any dps in my group that doesn't is slacking in my eyes and needs to be replaced, parser or not, that is dps you are not doing.
B)If you haven't noticed if you don't dodge in this game, you die most of the time, this will drop numbers on the person's parser, and it's easy to tell who isn't dodging, this community already avoids people that can't dodge on content where dodging is mandatory, being able to parse high while not dodging won't change that until you get to the point like on Garuda hard mode where you can ignore plumes, but then who cares when you are to that point.

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Originally Posted by Surian

Stuff

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Except a proper parser would show that they took drastically more damage than their party mates. As to the food thing in XI -- if you didn't have a food buff up you were generally wrong. Food was a tremendous impact in that game.

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Originally Posted by KyroeFelix

I don't understand how this is a counter-point. Titan EX is not a mandatory part of the game; a dmg parser would be applicable to any instanced run you do and someone who doesn't like your performance could potentially be rude to you about it. No one is going to be rude to you if you decide not to do Titan EX

The design philosophy is not about making the game easy, though most things in the game are, it's about making sure players don't feel...what am I looking for...safe(?) while playing the game. It's the reason we still aren't able to send /tells while in an instance and why it took so long for us to get the vote kick feature.

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Why do you think parsers would have any impact on what is already happening. People are rude to one another all the time over their rotations, use of cooldowns, and positioning. This would not be something "new"to the current game, and if anything parsers could seriously help those people failing with their rotations work things out and realize how big of an impact not using proper cooldowns or spells at the right time is.

The bottom line is parsers are around already and many people in end game content run them for good reason. Short of changing the way the game logs data, SE is not going to be getting rid of parsers. They could however put in an accurate one available to EVERYONE. This would help out ps3/4 players immensely and put everyone on the same level as far as having the option to utilize their own data and how they can improve.

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Originally Posted by Iymala

Why do you think parsers would have any impact on what is already happening. People are rude to one another all the time over their rotations, use of cooldowns, and positioning. This would not be something "new"to the current game, and if anything parsers could seriously help those people failing with their rotations work things out and realize how big of an impact not using proper cooldowns or spells at the right time is.

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That doesn't mean they wont make the community worse.
Even on joke dungeons like WP(lol) people will be fighting the entire time about who isn't putting "enough" damage when I don't think its necessary.
That's what I don't want to see.

Nope, while I can understand those that'd like it for normal, personal reasons, they are unnecessary to beat the games content. However it is also (most apparently) used to belittle and vent their miserable lives at other random players in game. Particularly Duty Finder groups which are what most of us use nowadays, especially new players. We have enough drama queen problems with gear, watching cutscenes and other miscellaneous s**t they like to bitch about without giving them another tool to point their fingers at because its not meeting their own expectation.

A personal in-game parser I would welcome with open arms.

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Originally Posted by Denver_Max

the ToS does not approve of parsers like ffxiv-app and the like

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ToS does not approve the harassing of other players, and parsers are one of the common cause of that.
Even if most of you will argue it is useful to improve your own gaming and bla bla bla, the fact is that very often it is used by players to blame other players because their performances are sub-optimal by reading parser numbers. It become an elitist instrument, to feed elitists.

I do not think your account will risks consequence, if you use passive parser for your own sake only, and you keep your mouth shut about other players performance while you playing. Passive = do NOT meddle with game client, and just looks at the data passing by.

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Originally Posted by Iymala

Why do you think parsers would have any impact on what is already happening. People are rude to one another all the time...

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I never said parsers would increase/decrease player civility. I understand some people are and always will be rude. My point is, Yoshi-P will not add something to the game that he feels players will use as a way to pick on others. Many of the comments here are stating people don't want an in-game parser because those who aren't performing well will get flamed.

As I said in my OP, I am all for parsing data. I like to see it and try to improve on it; but I don't think Yoshi-P will add it once 3rd party tool support is implemented.

I see "standard" mentioned. So you set the standard, and everybodys standard is different. It also seems pretty easy to blame close range dps everytime, never mind about having to dodge bs or tank moving mob around. What I have seen is it's always a RUSH to get through dungeons and always a RUSH to kill bosses.

Maybe that's part of the problem. Maybe someone's gear sucks by your "standards" , some people can't help it if they can't even get some things done. Not getting things done tends to be because some party decided there is a "standard" that needs to be met ie: overgeared for a particular instance.

Maybe they should just give you a personal parser and just that. To be honest, I have never seen the amount of bad behaviour and attitudes I currently see in this game than I ever did in FFXI. A game is just a game in the end, relax don't take it too serious and create memories.

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Originally Posted by Wulfyn

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I don't know what other people's standard are, but I was referring to SE standard. Such as titan heart/gaol and nails. If you can't destroy them in the time limit, then there's a problem.