Skill based fights..

So apparently people wanted skill based fights. What qualifies as skill based if not:

Using cooldown on time (applies for both defensive and offensive)
Dodging aoe
Interruption on time
Managing threat list (applies for tank swaps as well)
Situational awareness (clicking on objects.. interacting with stuff.. not doze off..split damage.. stack together/away, stand somewhere)
???

Just wondering, cause people said it's boring and it's that all over again, but they've kinda used all the mechanics..? What is your so amazing idea that means something revolutionary, new, and fresh?

Skills in deep MMORPG games which are missing here, unfortunately:
- adapting the strategy used to the jobs you have in your party composition - NOT NEEDED IN ARR besides ranged vs melee
- choosing cross class abilities of the party jobs depending on the battle you're facing - NOT NEEDED IN ARR (way too few useful cross class abilities so you just take all)
- choosing the equipment you use depending on the battle you're facing - NOT NEEDED IN ARR, as generally higher iLvl means better, no matter the fight
- adapting the battle tactics to actions of the boss - NOT NEEDED IN ARR (scripted encounters)
- cooperating with others in the sense that actions of Player 1 are influencing the potency of the actions of Player 2 - VERY FEW CASES IN ARR

It's not only Pinball that requires skill. Chess requires quite a high amount of it, just of a different kind. Hopefully ARR will become less Invaders and more Baldur's Gate, so to say ^^

Please note that I'm not saying what you list above is bad. It's cool, itt's good. But it's simply not enough. A MMORPG game can't be based so much on dodging red areas on the screen. It should be mainly a rock - paper - scissor - shotgun game, with great depth. I love SE, I want this company to succeed. And if ARR will succeed in the casual area, so be it, I'll still be happy for them, even if I won't play the game. I'm just afraid they're in for a quick buck and in the long run this will not work. Maybe I'm simply wrong. I won't be upset if I am :)

-Lak

"Boring" tends to be a dogwhistle for it's too hard for me, illegitimate difficulty is difficulty that personally frustrates the player and can't accept challenges as is; you should take complaints of the game's difficulty with a critical mind.

For example the first reply of your thread raised some interesting points, but most of them he is wrong on and they're present in fights he actually hasn't done.

You gotta look beneath the surface ;)

I didn't do all the fights in the game, but I believe that if till my relic I didn't encounter the stuff I'm saying it's missing, I won't suddenly see a complete change of the game.

I was saying:

- adapting the strategy used to the jobs you have in your party composition - NOT NEEDED IN ARR besides ranged vs melee
In 99.99% of the case the party has the same balanced composition dictacted by DF. And the main difference between melee is ranged vs dps.
The fact that in many fights I simply don't need to be aware of the party composition (I play tank) speaks a lot. I know there's a healer there and some guys that deal damage. I don't cooperate with them besides keeping the mob still so they can hit from behind of flanks and the very occasional "Cover, get close to me!" macro (used maybe 2 times in 1 month). My abilities do not concern them. Their abilities do not concern me.

I did Titan HM and I honestly don't know what jobs where in the party. I tanked 90% standing still, 10% avoiding some bombs, battle finished, ktxbai! I just know we had 2 healeares, 1 tank (me) and 5 dd. What actual jobs they were didn't matter for my play AT ALL in that fight at least. And not for theirs, I'm afraid. The main skill is remembering the pattern or - in case of FC battle - listening to the guy that says "now it's landslide... now it's bombs... now it's stomp" ^^

If this DOES change at higher level fights, then I'm glad. Hopefully it will change even more in the future.

- choosing cross class abilities of the party jobs depending on the battle you're facing - NOT NEEDED IN ARR (way too few useful cross class abilities so you just take all)
I've NEVER saw a discussion or a request about something like "Hey, tank, please make sure you're bringing [cross class ability name] to this fight, as it really helps]. This speaks a lot, IMHO.

- choosing the equipment you use depending on the battle you're facing - NOT NEEDED IN ARR, as generally higher iLvl means better, no matter the fight
I do believe I'm totally right here. As long as there's the term of BIS going around it means it's best for all fights. In other words, higher = better, no matter what. There's some talk about elemental resistances, but it seems nobody cares about them.

- adapting the battle tactics to actions of the boss - NOT NEEDED IN ARR (scripted encounters)
I guess you could say that stuff like:
Blue eyes = go away
Violet eyes = stack on the boss

count as adaptation to boss actions. But they're very basic. And for primal battles, it's about respecting a script, not adapting to random boss actions.

- cooperating with others in the sense that actions of Player 1 are influencing the potency of the actions of Player 2 - VERY FEW CASES IN ARR
Extremely few cases (Convalescence, Mantra etc.). Nothing resembling a real, powerful interaction between two player abilities.

If I'm wrong, np ^^

-Lak

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Originally Posted by Lakshmana

Skills ...
- cooperating with others in the sense that actions of Player 1 are influencing the potency of the actions of Player 2 - VERY FEW CASES IN ARR

It's not only Pinball that requires skill. Chess requires quite a high amount of it, just of a different kind. Hopefully ARR will become less Invaders and more Baldur's Gate, so to say ^^
....
-Lak

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What he said. This is why the end game fights are limited to just reaction mechanics. It's because the game does not have any other option to make encounters more "difficult" or complex.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

"Boring" tends to be a dogwhistle for it's too hard for me, illegitimate difficulty is difficulty that personally frustrates the player and can't accept challenges as is; you should take complaints of the game's difficulty with a critical mind.

For example the first reply of your thread raised some interesting points, but most of them he is wrong on and they're present in fights he actually hasn't done.

You gotta look beneath the surface ;)

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Accuracy? Seriously. That's pretty much the only thing that you have to look out for and it's only applicable in coils. Lol

Well, let's compare it directly to XI since that was their previous, highly successful MMO.

In XI skill meant:

- Knowing what special attacks the enemy can use and being able to react accordingly, as they were generally done at random instead of a fixed rotation like in ARR
- Memorizing skillchains, magic bursts, and weaknesses/resistances to not just the 8 elements but enfeebling effects as well
- Having situational gear to maximize performance or adapt to a crisis situation, such as swapping out for an evasion set or -% damage taken gear.
- Having all applicable sub jobs at your disposal, for example Dark Knight for access to Stun on a Red Mage or Ninja for shadows.
- Some fights (mostly the CoP story fights) required advanced preparation generally involving farming special items to make the fight easier, like CCB Polymers for Omega Weapon.

More than anything though it came down simply knowing your role and being able to adapt to whatever gets thrown at you. There's really not a whole of that in ARR, it's largely just each player doing their own thing and only really paying attention to their rotations and AoE. A few fights now involve Tanks swapping hate vs certain mobs (Ultima HM, Garuda EX etc.) but otherwise the rule of thumb still applies. Limit Breaks honestly don't count either, and would be far more interesting if the LB effect actually changed with each individual job, for example DRG could have increased WS damage or TP regen for the party while MNK grants a large skill speed bonus, and BRD gives critical hit rate up instead of the stupid shared healing LB.


I honestly don't like that every fight is 100% scripted as it makes it dull and uninteresting over the long run. What if Titan were to skip doing a landslide or Tumult and fire off a second Mountain Buster after the 1st one? How many tanks do you know would be able to handle that? The RNG isn't always (though in most cases it is) a bad thing. A little randomness in the content, done right, keeps things interesting and helps weed out the truly good players from the bad.

Whereas Vana'diel felt like a world full of danger and wonder, Hydaelyn feels like a world on rails...

Honest question and hope to get an honest answer. Why are you playing FFXIV (new school mechanics) instead of FFXI (old school tactics).

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honest question and hope to get an honest answer. Why are you playing FFXIV (new school mechanics) instead of FFXI (old school tactics).

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Lol this is not new school buddy. This is dumbed down

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Originally Posted by Axidrain

Accuracy? Seriously. That's pretty much the only thing that you have to look out for and it's only applicable in coils. Lol

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Congrats on finding one of the 2 points I agree with.

Like it's a pointless thing to say "most fights don't require this sort of skill" when by design the developers made a tiny minority of the content "challenging content". If you're not talking about primals or coil then what are you talking about?

I agree that itemization in this game is garbage and cross-class skills are restrictive, neither has much relevance to encounter difficulty though.

Skill = Memorization

This game pretty much personifies that idea. Boss fights only require you to know WHAT to do when it happens not what to do, SHOULD it happen. Big difference.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honest question and hope to get an honest answer. Why are you playing FFXIV (new school mechanics) instead of FFXI (old school tactics).

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I'll bite.

I'm playing XIV because I thought 1.23 was going in a great direction. I'm 90% certain that when my sub runs out, I won't be playing this game anymore because the dev team that gave us 1.23 seems to have been swapped with their bizarro world counterparts.

I'm NOT playing XI anymore because that game has changed and gone to iLevel weapons/gear. They're doing the same thing with XI that ARR is, vertical only. Oh, and good luck getting the new iLvl weapons and stuff, last time I was in XI, you couldn't get into a party to challenge the content that drops the weapons unless you already had a weapon.

I agree with everyone, in one side we can agree that the fights are too simple ( I am a bloody casual for heaven's sake), even I can easily figure out the most complex of fights without having to look at videos for the first time.
My gear is already BC1-4 ready and I acquired it without much effort, this is not good, it cheapens the gear. Let's take for example Monster Hunter, though its an action single player rpg with a multiplayer element, it forces you to prepare and know every single skill of the game to be able to tackle end game.You can not and will not win this game unless you bring appropriate gear with appropriate skills with appropriate items,food and be mentally prepared to get your ass kicked in one shot if you mess up.
All MMORPG today lack this, there is always an end game gear who can do it all, always a set of skills that can do it all, that is balls and needs to be fixed. The player needs to learn to strategize and prepare, to get some value of every piece of gear they pick up, for every action to have meaning on an upcoming battle.
Hell I do not even need to use food or potions anymore ( that is freaking sad, that was one of the things i miss in rpgs), the fights are so cake you can just go dry in and feel no pain because of it.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honest question and hope to get an honest answer. Why are you playing FFXIV (new school mechanics) instead of FFXI (old school tactics).

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Several reasons really.

1) I played XI for a good 9 years, and I was satisfied when I hung it up. There's new story content now, but it's just not enough.
2) I really, really hate XI's dated mechanics and horrible crafting & gathering. While I still think it's the best job system of any MMO and the UI isn't all that horrible once you get used to it, I rather like how polished and streamlined ARR is. I just wish we had more freedom within the armory system and combat was a bit more engaging than simply 1>2>3 over and over.
3) I'm fairly certain all my friends who used to play XI have quit, and I don't fancy going back alone (though I did keep all my gil and items just in case I ever decided to).


And lastly, I'm legacy. I stuck out 1.0 to the bitter end in the hopes of YP turning this game into something far grander than XI ever was. So far it's been about 50/50 - the potential is definitely there, but it's largely being squandered in my eyes to cater to the scrubs.

I have to agree this game really isn't very skill based when it comes to party mechanics. You go in tank it pew pew it and dodge it, you have a good memory you won the fight, there is nothing random about any of it. I have to say I am paid up through March and leaning on not resubbing as I'm getting pretty bored with the repetition. Honestly the only thing I've found that keeps me in the game is crafting anymore as I can't level any DPS classes without very long duty finder waits and I hate the fate system.

It boggles my mind how many players in this game can't dodge simple things and the bad part is you need 7 others that can do it near perfectly to win.

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Originally Posted by Doo

It boggles my mind how many players in this game can't dodge simple things and the bad part is you need 7 others that can do it near perfectly to win.

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Yeah, well not everyone has fast reflexes and fantastic motor memory.

It boggles my mind that no one knows the difference between their, they're and there, or the difference between lose and loose, and payed isn't even a real word, but that kind of stuff happens all the time around here and no one makes them feel like second class players or tries to convince them that they're worthless and dumb.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

Yeah, well not everyone has fast reflexes and fantastic motor memory.

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How do you have fun in this type of end game of phases/rotations dodging?


P.S I hate Lieing and dieing

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Originally Posted by Doo

How do you have fun in this type of end game of phases/rotations dodging?


P.S I hate Lieing and dieing

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I don't have fun, haven't had fun for the past couple of weeks, which is why I'm not logging in that much anymore.

That's also why I'm in a thread that is talking about skill based fights, rather than motor memory and fast reaction time fights :p

Pretty sure (90%) that I'll be canceling when my sub runs out. Problem is that I have a hundred and some days left on it, as I upped it shortly before 2.1 hit.

Everyone please remember this is just the first year of the game. They have to leave themselves somewhere to go in the future. Maybe they are doing the memorization fights now and the random fights come out later. I am not trying to be a fanboy or defend the game but you have to remember that this game is going to run a long time and they have to have some direction to move into...right? I hope so...I love the game so far and am having a blast. I am working on my 5th Relic now (SCH) and just love it. I cannot wait to complete T4 & T5 here soon and be ready for T6 come 2.2.

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Originally Posted by TrystWildkey

I don't have fun, haven't had fun for the past couple of weeks, which is why I'm not logging in that much anymore.

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Yeah end game is frustrating for most. In other games even if you have one or two that can't do it perfectly, the team can still win. FFXIV is extremely unforgiving when it comes to someone not knowing how the battle goes 100 percent. Then comes the finger pointing, the rage quitting, etc. It's totally non casual friendly for a casual friendly game.

First of all I agree that most fights in this game feel flat in terms of mechanics. But since FFXI was mentioned (played that since the start of NA release so around 2 years after the japanese release) and I'm really not remembering any fights at that point which did stuff differently. Sure we had no real dodge mechanics like we have here at the moment but for the most part the fights played out the same way if not a bit more limited.

Please don't understand that remark as me saying: No FFXIV:ARR is perfect the way it is. It is not. I'd love to have some of the stuff mentioned in this thread and I really hope that with the coming updates and addons we will get that sort of stuff. But how skill based can they go for if the current "easy mode" can't be completed by a large amount of the playerbase?

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Originally Posted by Miiu

First of all I agree that most fights in this game feel flat in terms of mechanics. But since FFXI was mentioned (played that since the start of NA release so around 2 years after the japanese release) and I'm really not remembering any fights at that point which did stuff differently. Sure we had no real dodge mechanics like we have here at the moment but for the most part the fights played out the same way if not a bit more limited.

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Divine might
Kings
Sky Gods
COP wyrms
NMS/BCNMS
Dynamis

etc

so many different types of fights rather than the same ol mechanics that FFXIV uses.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

Everyone please remember this is just the first year of the game. They have to leave themselves somewhere to go in the future. Maybe they are doing the memorization fights now and the random fights come out later. I am not trying to be a fanboy or defend the game but you have to remember that this game is going to run a long time and they have to have some direction to move into...right?.

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I understand your sentiment, but no matter how much content they add, I'm afraid that with the way they structured the fundamentals of the battle system, nothing will change.

The battle system is done in such a way that all fights are going to be about fast reaction times and a single, most effective skill rotation.

I don't even have my first relic weapon, there are LOADS of content that I haven't done yet. But I still have no desire to log in to this game anymore. The last few times I did log in, I sat around in Uldah going through my journal and the duty finder screens to see what I could do. My options were: instanced and level capped dungeon, leves that can only be done solo, quests that can only be done solo, or instanced and level capped dungeons.

For me, at least, it's not a lack of content that I'm dissatisfied with, it's the fundamental design of the game that I'm dissatisfied with. And that, unfortunately, is not something that can/will be changed with the next patch or even expansion.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

Honest question and hope to get an honest answer. Why are you playing FFXIV (new school mechanics) instead of FFXI (old school tactics).

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I'll also take this one.

Most of those who liked XI and moved on did so due to Abyssea. It pretty much changed XI in to ARR in principal, so for us there is no XI to 'go back to'.

A lot of people who stuck with it loved 1.2x. It was a great game. Would have been better with the ARR engine (lesser in some respects, but got rid of the 1.x issues at least). We had hopes 2.0 would follow what we had in the 2 previous SE MMOs. Like or hate it, it was unique and there were those who loved it. Most of us in this category don't appreciate the gear treadmill and don't want to hop games between content patches.

I'm spoiled. I reupped my XI sub for a month after v1 went down to hang out with old friends. As great as it was in its day I couldn't take the clunky controls, graphics, pace and so on. It has aged.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Divine might
Kings
Sky Gods
COP wyrms
NMS/BCNMS
Dynamis

etc

so many different types of fights rather than the same ol mechanics that FFXIV uses.

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Hate to burst your bubble but the same arguement can be used for those. Each fight had a "gimmick", "order", or "strat" attached to it. The fights were kited, tank/spank, "burn", or range only. I mean, every RPG pretty much implements kill monster don't die strat lol. FF11 is not the holy grail of skill-based fights as people clouded by nostalgia think it to be.

Also what you have pointed out in your list was more like... a variety of enemies. The game will have more enemies sure, but due to the mentality and way the game is design it will never have moments where people only bring blunt damage or piercing due to it being the "best." SE doesn't want people excluded from fights and when a game is designed that way, the sacrifice is that the fight will be based more on dodge mechanics, timing, and knowing when to push/hold dps. This is why the game feels... repetitive, boss fight wise


Aside (not to person I quoted):
This will sound elitest, but if people aren't capable of clearing EX primals/T5 easily each and every week (farm mode) then they can't really complain too much. They are part of the reason why boss mechanics don't get more complicated. I.E. if a larger percentage had T5 clears it might raise alarms at SE that content is beyond too easy. Thus we can't really blame the dev team for the majority of the community just being... bad, thus catering to them.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

Please don't understand that remark as me saying: No FFXIV:ARR is perfect the way it is. It is not. I'd love to have some of the stuff mentioned in this thread and I really hope that with the coming updates and addons we will get that sort of stuff. But how skill based can they go for if the current "easy mode" can't be completed by a large amount of the playerbase?

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Sometimes even being stupidly simple or, in ARR's case, scripted, can still be challenging in that it just doesn't meet the attention or playstyle of some. Moreover, the punishment of scripted fights, par for their course, is fairly strict.

That said, even at endgame, it does feel like we're playing with about the complexity of most MMO's half-game. We use dodge, add (kill order), and swap-mechanics, and... that's about it. There's little kiting, little defensive potential from dps classes, and relatively little class interplay except at a dull, unreactive, and/or compositional level. Even from a general aesthetic standpoint, the animations of large-scale battle in ARR, perhaps largely due to a lack of projectile or casts-in-movement animations, tend not to look as appealing as in other MMOs, such as WoW (though particular examples may be no better). It feels more like a melee mass and scattered or clumped ranged, with no artwork of casts or shots bridging or enwrapping the two. Boss movement and animation as well looks traditionally clunky or worse. In that field, ARR stands, but does nothing more. It has visibly learned nothing, and innovated nothing. And the sad thing is that there are already lively, and even FF-specific, concepts available to move us into something new.

For such to happen though, combat itself will likely need to be fundamentally revised. And that's not just about making available more to combat than just combo-cycling, but also allowing every player in a fight to more interestingly influence interplayable factors through underlying mechanics. AI improvements would also likely be important.

Beating a boss over and over and over 1000 times isn't skill. once you beat him, you know how to fight him and therefore the endgame becomes rather tedious. Every PvE encounter will be like this. Come over to PvP, where you fight other players. Being schooled by veteran groups will for sure make you think there are challenging aspects for final fantasy which you had no idea about before probably. Pc's don't change and adapt, players do.

Monster hunter - once you beat a boss, even though unscripted and random, said boss is easy, you know his moves, and how to dodge etc.
Mega man, Zelda, Mario, almost every mmo ever created, etc, all the pve bosses are jokes once you beat them a few times. Come PvP, and force SE to expand greatly on it^^

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Hate to burst your bubble but the same arguement can be used for those. Each fight had a "gimmick", "order", or "strat" attached to it. The fights were kited, tank/spank, "burn", or range only. I mean, every RPG pretty much implements kill monster don't die strat lol. FF11 is not the holy grail of skill-based fights as people clouded by nostalgia think it to be.

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Doesn't burst my bubble, I just find them more fun then rotation/phases memorization where one person messes up it's most likely a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Aside (not to person I quoted):
This will sound elitest, but if people aren't capable of clearing EX primals/T5 easily each and every week (farm mode) then they can't really complain too much. They are part of the reason why boss mechanics don't get more complicated. I.E. if a larger percentage had T5 clears it might raise alarms at SE that content is beyond too easy. Thus we can't really blame the dev team for the majority of the community just being... bad, thus catering to them.

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A couple of points here.. Not a personal attack just a couple of things that highly annoy me.

First yes he can complain all he wants. Valid points are valid points.

Second farming T5 is about having a consistent static, not individual skill.

And lastly we already had a far higher % of players beating T5 before 2.1 than Yoshi estimated. There were more than 100 on my server that cleared T5 before 2.1, let alone the entire game. The response was to make everything easier. Yay.

Way too much content in early FF11 was "Fail stun and you lose" or "Kite or you get 1-shotted".

Ironically enough it wasn't until after Abyssea that fights started to get interesting with Auras, interesting enemy counters, and other mechanics that they were able to put in place when they decided to be a bit more ambitious with what the engine could do.

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Originally Posted by Yashnaheen

A couple of points here.. Not a personal attack just a couple of things that highly annoy me.

First yes he can complain all he wants.

Second farming T5 is about having a consistent static, not individual skill.

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So true. Many players aren't beating these "tough" fights because they can't. Most of these leet guys all watch MrHappy videos and play a lot anyways. There's only a handful that actually do the work.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Hate to burst your bubble but the same arguement can be used for those. Each fight had a "gimmick", "order", or "strat" attached to it. The fights were kited, tank/spank, "burn", or range only. FF11 is not the holy grail of skill-based fights as people clouded by nostalgia think it to be.


Aside:
This will sound elitest, but if people aren't capable of clearing EX primals/T5 easily each and every week (farm mode) then they can't really complain too much as they are part of the issue mechanics don't get more complicated. I.E. if a larger percentage had T5 clears it might raise alarms at SE that content is beyond too easy. Thus we can't really blame the dev team for the majority of the community just being... bad, thus catering to them.

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I think people aren't mentioning XI so much out of a sense of nostalgia, but as an easy/familiar game to compare and contrast with. They're not saying it was the best thing ever, just providing a contrasting example.

Also, your aside doesn't sound so much eliteist as it sounds dismissive of people who don't play games the same way that you do.

This is probably going to be long, but please, hang in there with me.

I wasn't good at playing Mario, Sonic, MegaMan, Street Fighter, or any of the other games that required great motor skills and pattern memorization. However, when I discovered turn-based RPG's, holy crap was I happy! Finally, something I could play for more than just the first few easy levels. Something that made me think, and challenged me to figure out strategies. RPG's also gave me a story, how fantastic is that! So, I happily started playing RPG's instead of the action games everyone else was playing.

Jump ahead in time, and Halo happens. Friends of mine had LAN parties where we played Halo. I went, more to socialize than play the game since I SUCKED at it, but hey, fun with friends is fun with friends.

Then, a different friend introduced me to a different game, FFXI. This was fun AND strategy with friends. This was something that involved thinking and some basic motor skills. Nothing that was out of my reach, it just might take me a bit longer. Then I found out that there are OTHER MMORPGS, holy freaking crap! I tried out a couple, but didn't like them all that much and stuck with XI. Then XIV came out, it had some slowness issues, but the core game mechanics I enjoyed. Then 1.23 and OH MY HOLY GOD this is so good!! Ok, same dev team that gave us 1.23 is going to give us a revamped game, great!

Then I got slapped in the face and shoved back to the days where I couldn't get past the water stage in Mario.

It's disappointing. I play RPG's because their pace and depth really appeal to me and I suck at action games. Now, it seems as if all RPG's are turning into action games. Forgive me if I'm not very pleased with that.

Sincere question: Are all MMORPG's more action oriented than strategy? Are there any with a slightly slower pace to combat that might appeal to me? (please don't tell me to go back to XI, it's doing the vertical progression, item level crap now too and I don't like that)

I have a theory people who owned a original NES and played like Mario, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, the first Ninja Turtles or any of other classic NES games are much better at FFXIV then people who have never played a NES. Why because old school NES games required a lot of memorization and quick reaction to stuff to beat the game.

They wanted to put in more things in FFXIV that require quick reflexes and pattern memorization to make the game harder. If you only played turn based rpgs and never played a platformer or action game then you won't do as well. Even playing a competitive FPS that requires twitch actions to win those people will do better as well.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

I have a theory people who owned a original NES and played like Mario, Mega Man, Ninja Gaiden, the first Ninja Turtles or any of other classic NES games are much better at FFXIV then people who have never played a NES. Why because old school NES games required a lot of memorization and quick reaction to stuff to beat the game.

They wanted to put in more things in FFXIV that require quick reflexes and pattern memorization to make the game harder. If you only played turn based rpgs and never played a platformer or action game then you won't do as well. Even playing a competitive FPS that requires twitch actions to win those people will do better as well.

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That's not a theory, that's proven fact!

I just wonder why they went that direction instead of continuing with the 1.23 system.

EDIT: I wouldn't be so close to quitting the game if they hadn't also made crafting completely useless. If I could still craft solid, usable gear for my husband and friends, I'd be happy to stay with ARR.

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Originally Posted by Zumi

They wanted to put in more things in FFXIV that require quick reflexes and pattern memorization to make the game harder. If you only played turn based rpgs and never played a platformer or action game then you won't do as well. Even playing a competitive FPS that requires twitch actions to win those people will do better as well.

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I just look at FFXIV more as checkers while FFXI is more like chess.

Good points Tryst.

I really think the differences in the playerbase here isn't so much one is right and one is wrong, or that there is no counter argument to a type of playstyle. It's that there are 2 general types who play MMORPGs.

1. Those who love RPGs. The progression, story, lore, struggles and glory. The MMO part includes others which (depending on the company you keep) make it even better. Modern offerings tend to destroy your progression or reason to progress in general. These types will probably enjoy an evening with a few others and a tabletop RPG.

2. Those who enjoy the game time and consistency an MMO offers, and the social aspect. Not so much the RPG part. I don't understand this group as well so I won't try to go in to detail I don't understand well. But they would enjoy twitch games more than an RPG, like in Zumi's example- classic arcade style side scrollers.

FFXIV: ARR happens to be a Type 2 game, even though the franchise's previous 12 games were Type 1.

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Originally Posted by Doo

Doesn't burst my bubble, I just find them more fun then rotation/phases memorization where one person messes up it's most likely a wipe.

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Well, let's be frank. In FF11 the game was all about memorizing as well. Heck any boss is when it comes down to it. DM you had a kill order. Sky gods had attack rotations and 2hrs. Nyzul isle had specific room types. Jailers had specific tactics per jailer. Salvage you had to know who to unlock skills/stats for first and the path of gear to take. Now I liked FF11 for what it was, and I want a variety of fights and bosses to take down in dungeons, and open world as well! So Not trying really hate.

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Originally Posted by Yashnaheen

A couple of points here.. Not a personal attack just a couple of things that highly annoy me.

First yes he can complain all he wants. Valid points are valid points.

Second farming T5 is about having a consistent static, not individual skill.

And lastly we already had a far higher % of players beating T5 before 2.1 than Yoshi estimated. There were more than 100 on my server that cleared T5 before 2.1, let alone the entire game. The response was to make everything easier. Yay.

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What valid points? What I quoted was strictly opinion from him. Even my response alone is an opinion that so happens to be "valid points" against his "valid points." (Not trying to be a troll just have to point that out because something being valid is based on fact or sound reason.)

I didn't saying a person wouldn't be able to complain. "Can't really complain" is a idiom. So when I said it I was conveying that people complaining about skill based fights when they cannot do current "skill based fights" from lack of the said skill is in a sense ironic. Would be like getting a new computer built to run the highest taxing game out on the market, but you only ever play psx emulated games on it. For T5 comment sure, "more people cleared than he estimated" but just think of the majority that didn't. We are a drop in the bucket compared to the masses so I can see why the content was made easier for them to move on as we clear the new "hard" content. Thus further showing what I said to have some reason behind it, "majority is bad and will be catered to."

Also, at the individual skill comment. Individual skill in current MMO(s) only ever takes you so far anyways. To be able to bring together a team that can learn to work together, is a skill in it's own right. Learning to play with people you group with is just part of an MMO. Just as people who work on the development teams are in small teams of their own!

Now I will say that this game doesn't take much skill and I would like it to be more skill based. However due to the scope of game play design the odds of of seeing significant change without survey(s), data, and petitions is next to none.

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Originally Posted by Yashnaheen

Good points Tryst.

I really think the differences in the playerbase here isn't so much one is right and one is wrong, or that there is no counter argument to a type of playstyle. It's that there are 2 general types who play MMORPGs.

1. Those who love RPGs. The progression, story, lore, struggles and glory. The MMO part includes others which (depending on the company you keep) make it even better. Modern offerings tend to destroy your progression or reason to progress in general. These types will probably enjoy an evening with a few others and a tabletop RPG.

2. Those who enjoy the game time and consistency an MMO offers, and the social aspect. Not so much the RPG part. I don't understand this group as well so I won't try to go in to detail I don't understand well. But they would enjoy twitch games more than an RPG, like in Zumi's example- classic arcade style side scrollers.

FFXIV: ARR happens to be a Type 2 game, even though the franchise's previous 12 games were Type 1.

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This I agree with completely, well said. I wish this post could be a sticky'd.

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Originally Posted by Mardel

Well, let's be frank. In FF11 the game was all about memorizing as well. Heck any boss is when it comes down to it.

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It does but in FFXI you can go into most fights blind and win while ffxiv you and I know the majority of players have to watch Mr Happy videos to succeed.



edit: If it was a single player game, I wouldn't mind FFXIVs style as much since I don't think they are that difficult. But when you make me rely on 7 others to do their role perfectly, it makes me hate it.

So, from these posts.. I'd assume.. that what people don't like is the entire system itself? I mean from the game's perspective, they've done all they can with the fights.. right? Except the random part. Well, conflagrations' target is kind of random.. Landslide's target is random.. Who gets gaoled is random.. And um, Chimera's rotations are random? Blue eyes, Violet eyes? I found that interesting. But just like with each and every fight there is in every game out there.. All fights are just the same with reskinned images, aren't they?

I personally quite like what XIV has to offer. They've been quite creative, but of course your first victory's the charm. Any wins after that would have lost it's OH YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH moment..

Edit:@above..

When I go into new fights, I expect to lose. If I can win it within my first try, that's such a phail boss battle.. Remember playing Kingdom Hearts(if you did) and beating Sephiroth? I went from not being able to dent him at level 99 to able to beat him with a level 50 character.. And I still think it's a very badass battle. I didn't watch any videos beating the EX primals at all, took me about 30 hours to finally win Titan (cumulated, played 3 days 10 hours each) and now I kind of find the fight very relaxing. But these all satisfy me.

What doesn't satisfy you guys? Is it because of the internet age, you can't help but spoil yourself on how people beat it and then went and watched videos?

For me, the charm is losing, and not knowing where I did wrong, then ask others or try figuring that out myself until I can defeat the boss.