What are Guildleves? I mean, I've done hundreds of them but what exactly are they?
As near as I can tell, Guildleves are basically another iteration of Assaults (FFXI: ToAU) or Campaign Ops (FFXI: WotG), but without the obvious narrative or structural framework of their predecessors. I know that mentioning FFXI on these boards is a bannable offense, but please just bear with me as I try to understand this.As this concept developed, it went from well-defined (Assaults) to less-defined (Campaign Ops) to random daily quest generator (Guildleves). Assaults were tied to the core experience of FFXI: ToAU and later events such as Nyzul Isle Investigations and Salvage were bound to it. Campaign Ops had no bearing on FFXI: WotG and were just a side activity. Guildleves seem to be there just as something to do.
- Assault - assignments provided by the Empire to registered mercenaries. As mercenaries rose in rank, they were trusted with more dangerous and more sensitive missions. Mercenaries are only eligible to rank up by completing these assignments. Assaults were non-random.
- Campaign Ops - assignments provided by the allied nations to volunteer soldiers. As soldiers rose in rank, they were trusted with higher level assignments. Soldiers ranked up by time spent doing campaign battle (an unrelated activity). Campaign Ops were non-random.
- Guildleves - assignments brokered by the Adventurer's Guild. Anyone can sign up for any assignment without qualification except for being within a certain level range. Guildleves are randomized in the following parameters: availability, goals & difficulty (for local leves), reward.
So that is how I see it. Maybe I missed something, but from my time in the game I haven't seen anything that ties guildleves to the world, to the lore, to the story in part or in whole. I haven't found any reason to do guildleves except for their immediate reward: there's no progression, no storylines, no benefits to having completed all guildleves. (Not counting those faction leves with a tiered structure to unlock NMs, though that is at least a step in the right direction.)
Unless I'm missing something, and I'm not the type to skip cutscenes or spam enter through dialogue, here's what doesn't make sense about guildleves:I don't see anything in the .plan about guildleves except adding more of them. I kinda hope that by the time this game is out of beta, the following changes are made:
- Weak connection to lore: the individual leves seem to exist just arbitrarily without connection to each other. If a guy needs me to supply parts for his ship, then weapons for his ship, then armor for his ship, why doesn't he ever sail? Or remember that I've made him stuff like fifty times now?
- NPCs have no sense of importance: "kill some rabbits" and "assist in the capture of a dangerous fugitive in a sting we've been preparing for months" are equally important and can be trusted to just anyone who shows up?
- No progression: adventurers don't build reputation, so any leve is available to anyone regardless of skill or experience.
- No need for progression: I'll just kill the same 6 goats every day because you keep paying for it.
- Weak connection with lore: the existence of the guildleve system is not adequately explained or justified.
I'm sure I must be missing something, because S-E has done this kind of thing in the past (Assaults in FFXI, missions in FFTA/2) and made it wonderfully coherent and cohesive. Since 90% of FFXIV is guildleves, I'd really like to see more attention paid to them.
- Guildleves are given an existential purpose.
- Adventurers progress in the Adventurers' Guild as they complete guildleves and build a reputation.
- New and existing leves are tiered by reputation and reliability, such that the more important ones can only be taken by adventurers who have established reputations through completing lower level leves.
- Guildleves are given storylines and continuity; ie, if I supply a merchant ship then next time they might say "Thanks to those fine sails we made record time and have a new trade route, so now we need you to make X" or even the leve asking for you by name.
- More diversity than just kill quests. Or at least throw in some revenge kill-quests, like "After you killed X for us, his clanners kidnapped some merchants and asked for you by name."
- Consequences in the world. If a DoL does a bunch of survey leves, shouldn't the guild shop's variety change a little? If I kill a bunch of bandits for a leve, then make the bandits roaming around in the wild stick closer to camp for a while.
What are Guildleves?
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06-23-2011, 07:51 AM_C-a-e-r-i-t-h_What are Guildleves?
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06-24-2011, 01:03 AMnormalforceGuildlevesI think there are some very important points made here (it was a bit too long to quote the entire thing) that needs to be considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_
To me, here's a perfect example of a meaningless guildleve because it has a weak connection with the lore.
Farmers, really? I haven't seen any out there. In fact, I haven't seen a single settlements, or any indication that anyone is living out there. The closest establishment is Wineport and that itself is a dull and lifeless town.Quote:
Save the Lettuce, Save the World
A flock of game dodos has begun devouring the crops of La Noscean lettuce farmers living near Camp Bloodshore. Attempts by the local militia to drive off the ravenous cloudkin have resulted in numerous injuries and the untimely death of a one-eyed tracking hound. Travel to the area and eliminate the dodos before they can cause further damage.
Would it hurt to have a little continuity in the game? Maybe the farmer's settlement can be seen off in the distance, up the cliffs a way. Some sort of indication that the game has life outside walls of text.
And just from the descriptions of the leves alone, it seems like the world is teeming with life and rich in culture. But then the leve starts and it turns out to be just a mindless kill fest. Just another soulless leve to rush through so I can get to the 7 others after it.
I honestly don't think it would have been hard to make the leves something more compelling. Take Save the Lettuce, as an example.
After starting the quest, one of the militia steps out of the tent and explains their current predicament. In the background, an old man sobs, a collar tightly clutched in his hand. He makes a personal plea for you to kill those damned dodos and avenge his dearly departed dog.
Renewed with purpose, you find and dispatch these diabolical dodos. You turn around just in time to see the milita, farmers and old man come up and thank you for your assistance. Two people step forward, one holding a puppy, and they hand it to over to the old man. They tell him, while it has two good eyes, it was born with a bad nose and it can't "smell no good". But the old man doesn't care as he cradles the puppy to his chest, tearfully thanking the people, and the heartwarming scene ends with everyone celebrating. -
06-24-2011, 01:10 AMShydQue the fanfair music!Quote:
Originally Posted by normalforce
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06-24-2011, 02:51 AMObeiKinstar
Agree 100%
Nothing in this game really ties in with anything else. This guildleve system must have been a rushed after thought. The dev coming up with the stories for guildleves must not have had ANY communication from the other devs and was like, Im just gonna make up a bunch of generic 2 line stories that could fit in with ANY rpg.
Caerith, implementing your suggestions is a no-brainer, I would have expected that quality from SE to begin with (well 10 years ago I guess) -
06-24-2011, 07:05 AM_C-a-e-r-i-t-h_You mean this scene?Quote:
Originally Posted by normalforce
The real problem is that the generic 2-line stories don't actually fit. Normalforce in the first response shows exactly how they could have fit, but that's not what happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by ObeiKinstar
I just wish I knew what they were thinking. -
06-24-2011, 06:27 PMKarbine
I absolutely love the design behind assault, einherjar etc and wish leves were more in line with these. When I first heard of them thats exactly what I thought of. An all level massive assault system would have been fantastic.
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06-27-2011, 05:30 PMRowyne
I agree with this thread.
As I've said in other posts, before the game was released, I had thought that leves were going to be more story-driven and help facilitate progression, not feel like glorified dailies. Making a game centered around empty daily quests is one of the worst designs I could think of. I agree that they shouldn't be scrapped as they really have great potential. But they were badly executed.
Right now I think we can all agree that this game is seriously lacking on fun factor and substance. It's time to take a look at why leves are a major culprit. Given the fact they are meant to be the backbone of leveling, I think they're in serious need of some TLC. -
06-29-2011, 11:07 PMlun4tic
Guildleves are currently serving their purpose, as a way for players to get into the game and accomplish something in a short period of time.
I think what you want are quests, of which there are currently many, with more to come.
My only gripe with levequests is the distinct lack of BEASTMEN. I want to fight my enemy, the orcs. -
06-29-2011, 11:16 PMGidonoidon_Sur
Agree with the thoughts in this thread.
My thoughts:
The major flaw to me is there is no explanation (or lacking one) of why the guild leves are important. Like the intro scenes and story should emphasize the purpose of the Adventurers Guild and its role in Eorzea (each city little different maybe) and why you should be interested in it. Is the Adventurers Guild just a place where random NPCs hire mercenaries for odd tasks? That is what it seems like. Let's just say that is the case. At least they could have given you ranks and such so that you worked up the Guild to more challenging leves with access to gear/rewards for more challenging leves. Seems like a lot of missed/lost potential. However, I do think they can rectify it and have made some of the first steps (lower SP rewards etc). -
06-29-2011, 11:23 PMnormalforceI agree that there seems to be a lot of missed potential with levequests. They could have been so much more compelling and tied in with the overall story that it actually feels like you're fighting the good fight. But I get no sense of accomplishment for completing them, nor am I emotionally invested in them. I complete them for the guild mark points mainly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gidonoidon_Sur
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07-07-2011, 12:03 PMSerioYou forgot one very important comparison: Fields of Valor. This is basically what Guildleves are. FoV was plain and simple, raw killing spree with a exp bonus. Guildleves are basically just the same thing except with some weird little fragment of random lore text and, very importantly, they are instanced. They are the backbone of leveling simply because they provide the only bonus to exp/sp (which totally undermines regular grinding since there is no type of bonus for that).Quote:
Originally Posted by _C-a-e-r-i-t-h_
As far as lore is concerned, yeah it sucks, but the idea is that you belong to the Adventurer's Guild and Guildleves are your little side jobs. I don't really think that Guildleves should have much more lore to them though, just that they should add new content with richer lore ties.
In terms of rewards, they are comparable to obtaining Beastmen Seals, which of course would be Faction Points (Not to mention Guild Marks). And Faction Leves are basically BCNMs. Now I don't remember any BCNMs having much lore to them either. The important distinction is that obtaining seals in FFXI was totally random, whereas in this game, they are guaranteed upon completion.
Now I'm not really disagreeing with the OP, but I'm trying to look at it in a more practical way. Guildleves are always going to be pretty static, and I think this is one situation in which less is more. People just want to use them to level up, and it would be a pain to have to go through cutscenes and other quests to unlock higher level Leves and whatever else.
You can't really fluff up leveling content that much is all I'm sayin. -
07-08-2011, 04:44 PM_C-a-e-r-i-t-h_
Ah yes, FoV.
BCNMs were a lot more focused in design than Faction Leves. Despite their similarity, BCNMs were completely different from the method you acquired seals (boss fight vs random drop off exp mobs) and were pretty much just treasure runs. Faction Leves are functionally the same as their means of entry (leves = leves) and are otherwise identical: same type of encounter, same difficulty, same type of reward.
I'm not expecting Steinbeckian lore behind all FFXIV's level content. Just for a little significance.