Summoner questions!

Hi,

I recently started playing SCH in an attempt to reach 50, but along the way I was asked to run low-level DPS and opted to switch over to SMN.

As I'm used to having Eos set into Obey > Heal whilst micromanaging her 3 primary spells, but when I summoned Ifrit, I had no idea what the best way is to control it's DPS was. I opted to leave him in free 'kill whatever you want' mode, but is this the best option?

I've seen people successfully using Ifrit in T4, but there's always arguments for Garuda as well. In which situation is Ifrit optimal, and in which situation is Garuda preferred?

tl;dr:
What stance should I keep Ifrit/Garuda/Titan in?
What type of damage do they deal?
In what situation is Ifrit/Garuda optimal?

Thank you in advance,
Ulric.

There is no situation where Ifrit is good. Garuda is always better.

Ifrit deals physical damage, Garuda deals magic damage. Ifrit works 'best' in Sic, Garuda works best in Obey. (mainly so you can control Contagion casts)

Ifrit is viable if there are DRGs and MNKs since they have debus that help ifrit, but otherwise Garuda is the better choice. SMNs may use ifrit if they are short melee since he'll help kill soldiers.

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Originally Posted by DBthaONE

Ifrit is viable if there are DRGs and MNKs since they have debus that help ifrit, but otherwise Garuda is the better choice. SMNs may use ifrit if they are short melee since he'll help kill soldiers.

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Ifrit is only buffed by MNKs, and no MNK is not going to Bootshine. Bane should be enough for a SMN to spread DoTs to Knights to break their stoneskin without needing extra physical DPS. There is no good reason to use Ifrit.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

There is no situation where Ifrit is good. Garuda is always better.

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While I am one to say Garuda always, I can't help be feel Ifrit is more worthwhile to use if doing t2 enrage. Simply because the shield it has when you just let it sic during the fight. Have had Garuda go down countless times there but manage to only need one Ifrit up through the whole fight. This is also while weaving a pet HoT instead of one ruin during rotation. But again, only place I really have found Ifrit being viable. Everywhere else... Gardua and Obey

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Ifrit is only buffed by MNKs, and no MNK is not going to Bootshine. Bane should be enough for a SMN to spread DoTs to Knights to break their stoneskin without needing extra physical DPS. There is no good reason to use Ifrit.

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Not really on topic here, I just wanted to say that a MNK will always keep up the Dragon Kick debuff at all times. You alternate Bootshine and Dragon Kick rotations. If you are only using Bootshine then you are doing it very, very wrong.

Now back to your Egi talk which I have nothing productive to add since I don't know much about SMN.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

There is no situation where Ifrit is good. Garuda is always better.

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I find Ifrit better during Copperbell Mine HM since he will follow the target out of the flames whereas Garuda (as a ranged) will sit in the flames and take damage. In fact, for fights where you have to move your pet out of harms way frequently, Ifrit is better. Contagion is nice but I can also manually maintain those buffs. The MP you save from contagion is negligible mostly. Ifrit also does slightly more damage?

Well, you can tell who in this thread doesn't play a summoner.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Contagion is nice but I can also manually maintain those buffs. The MP you save from contagion is negligible mostly.

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I don't think you understand Contagion. Contagion isn't about MP management. It's about extending the duration so that you can do other damage while the DoT's run. Time saved on re-applying is time spent on dealing more damage. It's especially useful with Raging Strikes, because you are extending the duration of BUFFED DoTs.

I would also agree that Ifrit is never better than Garuda. Unless, of course, you don't yet have Garuda and are left with no choice.

summon ifrit, use rouse, spur enkindle, smn garuda again thats it

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I would also agree that Ifrit is never better than Garuda. Unless, of course, you don't yet have Garuda and are left with no choice.

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Emerald Carbuncle is summonable when you don't have garuda and has the same abilities (though named differently) and an adorable corgi waddle.

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Originally Posted by Darkstride

I don't think you understand Contagion. Contagion isn't about MP management. It's about extending the duration so that you can do other damage while the DoT's run. Time saved on re-applying is time spent on dealing more damage. It's especially useful with Raging Strikes, because you are extending the duration of BUFFED DoTs.

I would also agree that Ifrit is never better than Garuda. Unless, of course, you don't yet have Garuda and are left with no choice.

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I was just mentioning the MP thing as a sidenote, I didn't say it was all about MP management. It's main effect is obviously about doing more damage. It's a great ability, but also essentially the only thing that keeps Garuda ahead of Ifrit. There are plenty of times where I don't care about Contagion e.g. when mobs are dying too fast for it to matter.

And while I understand it keeps your DPS up, I'm not going to freak out over a slightly lowered damage output because I prefer a more manageable Ifrit on some fights. For instance, using Ifrit to take on adds with radiant shield up etc. etc.

You mean besides that Garuda still out parses Ifrit, doesn't cause stun immunity, and has to deal with a lot of the stupid melee problems? No other reason to use Ifrit over Garuda than those?

Here's an nice guide I found about which pet to use when: When to Garuda Egi when to Ifrit Egi

As one of the comments put it - tldr go Garuda. On certain fights you may want to use Ifrit of course. Atomos is a kinda weird one where you might want to send Ifrit to attack but the bad thing is it's out of range of Spur and Enkindle. I also believe Garuda's contagion effectiveness was lowered due to Lightning being taken off cross class, but not enough to warrant switching. Unless min maxing though or in a dps race encounter, I just use Ifrit sometimes because I like how it looks and ruin spamming gets a little boring.

Even if you took away her contagion you should always use garuda always everywhere on everything all the time.

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Originally Posted by RxRai

Here's an nice guide I found about which pet to use when: When to Garuda Egi when to Ifrit Egi

As one of the comments put it - tldr go Garuda. On certain fights you may want to use Ifrit of course.

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This is a great guide. Like I said, sometimes Ifrit is better, but Garuda is good most of the time.

Also, it hasn't really been mentioned but I use Titan for all solo content. My Chocobo heals. I have a nice three-man team.

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Originally Posted by RxRai

Here's an nice guide I found about which pet to use when: When to Garuda Egi when to Ifrit Egi

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This guide is garbage and simply put: wrong.

Every single time this guide recommends using Ifrit, it is backed up by one of three things: 1) nothing, 2) bad information, 3) neglected realities

Ifrit, even in Sic mode, does less DPS than Garuda. This isn't even considering Contagion. There is no content in the game that Ifrit can do more DPS. Then you consider Contagion, and Garuda blows Ifrit out of the water.

Garuda never gets melee range knock backs. Garuda never gets cleaves. Garuda never has to travel the full arena to get next to her target. Garuda never suffers from badly timed ability usage.

The basic premise the guide suggests is that Ifrit is better at killing trash, which again, is wrong. Between contagion'd DoTs and Aerial Slash, Garuda will always be better. All this nonsense about spending time summoning one pet, then doing some content, then summoning another, and switching back, etc. is the biggest load of rubbish. While someone is busy doing that, either wasting Swiftcast or literally standing there summoning, a SMN that isn't is busy doing DPS.

They actually suggested on some content that 'Ifrit chasing X around the arena' was a GOOD reason to bring him over Garuda. Guess what, when Ifrit is chasing something around, it isn't dealing damage. Which is what Garuda would be doing.

The general idea that if you have a fight where Ifrit isn't totally owned into the ground, that it is an OK substitute for Garuda simply on the merit of being 'comparable' DPS, is simply bad. If my pet choice makes me lose 5 DPS, while 'comparable', is still losing me 5 DPS. Why would I _ever_ want to do that?

Basically, Contagion aside, there is no situation where you want to use Ifrit. NONE. Then you consider Contagion, and there is really no choice in the matter. Until Ifrit is changed to simply be something better than it is right now, it will never see any significant use, and anyone who thinks there is an actual comparison to be made, is simply deluding themselves.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

They actually suggested on some content that 'Ifrit chasing X around the arena' was a GOOD reason to bring him over Garuda. Guess what, when Ifrit is chasing something around, it isn't dealing damage. Which is what Garuda would be doing.

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Garuda would also be sitting in a vortex losing HP and forcing you waste time and MP to cast Sustain. Of course you could manually reposition her but it's just one more thing to keep track of and having your pet die is far worse than losing minimal DPS.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

The general idea that if you have a fight where Ifrit isn't totally owned into the ground, that it is an OK substitute for Garuda simply on the merit of being 'comparable' DPS, is simply bad. If my pet choice makes me lose 5 DPS, while 'comparable', is still losing me 5 DPS. Why would I _ever_ want to do that?

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We're playing a game where the damage we do is based off of math calculations but we're not actually playing a math problem. I'm here to have fun, not nitpick every single detail until I play like a computer. If you want to tunnel vision yourself into ERMMAGAAAD THE HIGHEST DPS EVARRRRR, feel free. But some people have no problem losing 100% damage efficiency for some convenience in management.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Garuda would also be sitting in a vortex losing HP and forcing you waste time and MP to cast Sustain. Of course you could manually reposition her but it's just one more thing to keep track of and having your pet die is far worse than losing minimal DPS.

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I forgot, it is 'hard' to hit Heel once.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

We're playing a game where the damage we do is based off of math calculations but we're not actually playing a math problem. I'm here to have fun, not nitpick every single detail until I play like a computer. If you want to tunnel vision yourself into ERMMAGAAAD THE HIGHEST DPS EVARRRRR, feel free. But some people have no problem losing 100% damage efficiency for some convenience in management.

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And playing with Ifrit is somehow more fun? You know what is fun? Doing craptons of DPS. Ifrit is a drag, he pulls you down. Why would you ever want to do worse damage, simply for having something a little different to look at? What really are you after here, with wanting to use Ifrit? There is no convenience in managing Ifrit vs Garuda. There is nothing to nitpick. Use Garuda all the time. End of story.

If you just want to have fun and mess around, you can use Titan and I couldn't care less. But if it's a raid where you're required to be efficient, then you'll only use Garuda.

garuda garuga garuda. in obey stance, doing magical ranged damage, while you manually control Contagion, (and I macro'd Aerial Slash onto my own aoe's, bane/bliz2/shadowflare)

oh, there's a couple fights where ifrit is better. In Copperbell HM, on boss 1... there's a lot of moving, and intensely damaging ground effects, and garuda is a pain to micromanage positionally through that walkway-dps-race. Ifrit will follow the boss all the way through, instead of standing in fire shooting at range like a dope, and he requires no input at all, just sic him on the boss, and pay attention to your own self thereafter.

Also, there are a few fights where you lose your pet "often" to aoe. if you have to recast your pet 2-3 times during a boss fight, it starts to become very reasonable to use Titan egi instead. He doesn't hit as hard, but as long as there's no extra danger/damage from melee distance, he may stay upright much longer than either of the 'dps' pets.

good spots for ifrit or titan are rare. no one will look at you odd if you just use garuda full time.

Actually i also macro'd garuda to obey 'at' my target whenever i cast ruin, ruin2, or bio II, so that she's always being helpful to what I am trying to do when I have to switch targets.

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Originally Posted by NekoMancer

oh, there's a couple fights where ifrit is better. In Copperbell HM, on boss 1... there's a lot of moving, and intensely damaging ground effects, and garuda is a pain to micromanage positionally through that walkway-dps-race. Ifrit will follow the boss all the way through, instead of standing in fire shooting at range like a dope, and he requires no input at all, just sic him on the boss, and pay attention to your own self thereafter.

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I heard that recently, and tried it the other night. What ended up happening was that Ifrit would indeed follow _behind_ the boss, even if the boss was standing at the edge of the fire, meaning Ifrit would be standing in the fire. Ifrit was also a liability when the exploding bomb thingies spawned, as he would have to chase them around, rather than sit there shooting them constantly. There was no benefit to having Ifrit on this fight, only liabilities.

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Originally Posted by NekoMancer

Also, there are a few fights where you lose your pet "often" to aoe. if you have to recast your pet 2-3 times during a boss fight, it starts to become very reasonable to use Titan egi instead. He doesn't hit as hard, but as long as there's no extra danger/damage from melee distance, he may stay upright much longer than either of the 'dps' pets.

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If you are ever losing your pet 2-3 times in a fight, that tells me one thing: You aren't healing it enough. Healing a DPS pet instead of using a crappy tank pet is going to be the clearly superior DPS method.

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Originally Posted by NekoMancer

Actually i also macro'd garuda to obey 'at' my target whenever i cast ruin, ruin2, or bio II, so that she's always being helpful to what I am trying to do when I have to switch targets.

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That's bad. What if you tell Garuda to Contagion, then go to cast a ruin? Know what happens? Garuda stops trying to cast Contagion and goes back to Wind Slash. You could, say, just hit obey once when you switch targets. I know hitting two buttons instead of one is asking a lot.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

words

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point 1: "the tank can pull forward further"... problem solved. the best place for dps/heals is also behind the boss as well, so this is by far optimal. also, the bombs travel to the edge of the fire, right near ifrit. Ifrit is great in that fight, your tank not as much.

point 2: it's "very rare" to lose a pet that much. ergo it's "very rare" that titan would be helpful at all. If you go too overboard on heals, that itself can be a dps liability.

point 3: I have an alt-cast ruin II which does not include obey for those situations. it's debatable whether my settup saves any time or effort. it is 'slightly' faster at focusing down adds with fairly frequent/quick re-targeting. which is when i most feel the need for every possible advantage i can get.

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Originally Posted by NekoMancer

point 1: "the tank can pull forward further"... problem solved. the best place for dps/heals is also behind the boss as well, so this is by far optimal. also, the bombs travel to the edge of the fire, right near ifrit. Ifrit is great in that fight, your tank not as much.

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So now we're relying on the tank to position in such a way to prevent our pet from dying? Sounds like an awful thing to rely upon. Most tanks in DF or PF groups are going to simply sit on the edge of the flames when they spawn, since they don't need to move back towards the adds until more flames spawn. In this case, Ifrit is an additional liability. Plus, any situation where you have to rely on another player's positioning simply to justify something as 'being ok' is an obvious sign that it is not 'ok'. The only thing you need to do in this fight to make Garuda _easily_ a superior alternative is hit Heel twice throughout the entire fight. Not to mention Ifrit is _still_ doing less DPS than Garuda, is no easier to position (even if you do move him ahead of the boss, which is the only complaint people ever make about Garuda in that fight) and still doesn't have Contagion. I still haven't seen a single shred of actual evidence that Ifrit offers _anything_ in that fight, that Garuda doesn't. The only thing he does is less DPS.

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Originally Posted by NekoMancer

point 2: it's "very rare" to lose a pet that much. ergo it's "very rare" that titan would be helpful at all. If you go too overboard on heals, that itself can be a dps liability.

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Overboard on heals? You heal when your pet needs healing. In every scenario, it will always be better to heal occasionally instead of re-summon from scratch. It is never a DPS liability compared to the alternative.