[WHM] Garuda Extreme Threat Issues

I swear our FC has had the worst luck with Garuda, from the spiny plume's bubble not protecting us from Garuda's LB despite us killing it in time and all being in it before she starts casting, to wiping at 2% she's just not playing fair.

But the main issue that's been buggering up our runs has been the threat on surpana and chirada, and how much they want to give me a hug.

I heal as a WHM and have a SCH healing with me, for the first phase I maybe throw out one regen on the tank and maybe 1 medica but in general that's it and I holy the plumes. I have no regens out when Suprana and Chirada first come out and wait about 5 seconds before I start healing and for the most part that keeps me safe.

However as we move on in the fight and the tanks are taking more dmg, and I have to do raid healing it gets to a point that in the whirlwind phase I'm tanking the adds, the tank swears he sees a red box on his threat bar, but so do I and I definitely have suprana/chirada invading my personal bubble. My first reaction to this is to shroud (if it's available) which will cause her to leave and then come back, and during this time I just stop healing to avoid threat, but regens on the tank seem to be enough to piss her off.

Is anyone else having these issues? Any tips out there, for WHM or what I should ask the tanks to try (we've had WAR on Garuda and PAL on adds thinking of switching that up). I promise I'm not spamming medica and trying to leave tanks in the scholar's hands for most of it so that I'm not heal bombing.

I'm really hating shroud right now, as in Turn 4, I have a tiny window between shroud will not drop threat since I'm the only one with it, and death where it will actually be effective in dropping threat.

The regens on the tank will be enough to piss the sisters off if the tanks have to chase them around. Regen overheal is a lot of unnecessary threat. There should never be Medica 2 or Regens up on tanks if you know adds are popping unless you know they have had time to prime a Halone/BB combo (though it is possible on the sisters, yet the timing is very strict).

My advice to you would be to abuse Stoneskin. The Shriek before the vortexes should deal very little damage (especially with a SCH) and the sisters themselves deal very little damage with melee. Popping a low-threat Stoneskin on each tank should absorb more than enough damage for them to be put into position with no additional threat on your part.

For tanks, it is possible to do a Fast/Skull at the very end of Mistral Shriek, Savage/Heavy when Garuda respawns, and have Halone/BB up for the sister to have gg threat for that phase, but as I said the timing is very strict and 1-2 seconds off will lose the combo.

I haven't been using my beloved medica II, our tanks seem to be hit really hard, but I'll try stoneskin I'll just have to resist healing longer and hope the scholar can handle it then, I didn't go for stoneskin as the saving shroud for threat drops and holies had me sitting lower in MP than I'd like. But low MP is better than a dead WHM.

As Meru said, definitely try the stoneskin thing. I also use this in T4 if I can land it on my tanks right before phase switches because it buys time. Another thing to keep in mind is that you might try to use shroud more often, and not just as a straight up hate dump AFTER you've pulled hate. I start using mine after the first plume pop of the fight before sisters even pop, which puts me pretty low on the hate list because that first phase doesn't need much curing at all. A regen on the tank at the start, a medica after friction, and maybe a couple of cure 1s. I'm generally going in to first sister phase with green hate.

The part that I find most difficult is the subsequent sister pops. My best suggestion here is to stop curing in the plume phase about 10 seconds before it ends, and to use shroud as soon as its available. Also, ideally, get stoneskin on the off tank before you stop curing. This will give you a bit of time to lose some hate, and there's not much damage happening there if you're positioned correctly (Garuda's friction will ONLY target healers, so get yourself and the sch away from everyone else, it greatly reduces your need to cure.)

My last suggestion is to not run off immediately after the sisters pop. Stay near the center if you have hate so your tanks can get combos off without chasing the mob. If you take damage, let your sch cure you while your tanks are pulling sisters off.

Hope this helps!

Seems like a tank issue. They should be getting RoH or Butchers ready for the sisters which will secure hate. If you are having to heal to the point of pulling hate past that point then they are taking too much damage and not avoiding enough.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Seems like a tank issue. They should be getting RoH or Butchers ready for the sisters which will secure hate. If you are having to heal to the point of pulling hate past that point then they are taking too much damage and not avoiding enough.

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Talk to your tanks

I've never pulled the adds off my tanks

Positioning matters when you're at range in the nado sisters phase have your group not all stacked to reduce friction damage. Try to work on cutting down avoidable damage as a group.

Spiny plumes should be dead the moment she's gone.

If this all fails your tanks are slacking on threat enmity.

I have never had aggro problem when I tank even with just 1 tomahawk on suparna (I MT both garuda and suparna). It could also be your DPS is taking too much damage from Feather rain and wind burns that you needed to keep them alive. In that case, nothing you can do but ask your DPS to be more careful about dodging.

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

There should never be Medica 2 or Regens up on tanks if you know adds are popping unless you know they have had time to prime a Halone/BB combo (though it is possible on the sisters, yet the timing is very strict).

My advice to you would be to abuse Stoneskin.

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Yes I agree to the Stoneskin thing, but from personal experience I always keep Regen on both the tanks along with SS so when SS drops, they get a small buffer of health just incase another attack is coming, And for sisters I usually always have Medica 2 on everybody (except the very first sisters). Tanks have never had to fight me for hate, they grab the sisters quickly and hold them perfectly. At most all I see them use is their throwing skills with +attack abilities on them. Unless people are hitting Tornadoes and taking unnecessary damage, I never steal hate from the tanks.

Unfortunately this does seem like a tank issue, since you aren't spamming AoE heals and such (are you Crit'ing a lot?).

The few issues I had while learning the fight was when the sisters and spiney spawned. DPS goes ape nuts on one sister while OT is trying to corral the sister and spiney, until I fixed my rotation I would lose one or the other, especially if the spiney initially aggro'd on to a healer. Now it's a matter of having offensive CDs up, preloaded Butcher's Block (or Rage of Halone for PLD) to hit the sister so DPS can start to unload on it, Provoke and Tomahawk/Lob the spiney until in position, then back on sister for combo damage while throwing in Flash or Overpower to keep aggro on the Spiney.

A lil more practice for the tanks should fix it.

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Yes I agree to the Stoneskin thing, but from personal experience I always keep Regen on both the tanks along with SS so when SS drops, they get a small buffer of health just incase another attack is coming, And for sisters I usually always have Medica 2 on everybody (except the very first sisters). Tanks have never had to fight me for hate, they grab the sisters quickly and hold them perfectly. At most all I see them use is their throwing skills with +attack abilities on them. Unless people are hitting Tornadoes and taking unnecessary damage, I never steal hate from the tanks.

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Having Medica II and Regen up on the tanks is fine, but as mentioned above, if they are only pulling with Shield Lob/Tomahawk, they will lose enmity very quickly. They need a BB/RoH combo if they want to have regen/medica2 up and still keep enmity.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Seems like a tank issue. They should be getting RoH or Butchers ready for the sisters which will secure hate. If you are having to heal to the point of pulling hate past that point then they are taking too much damage and not avoiding enough.

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I have to agree with this. The tanks in my fc have no problem holding hate, even if I regen both ASAP when the sisters come down. The only time there is ever an issue is if a dps pulls hate, then sometimes it will come to me next if the tank isn't able to get it back fast enough.

Remind your tanks they can build their combo on garuda while she is invulnerable to have butcher/halone ready for sister spawns.

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Originally Posted by Tears-of-Death

Remind your tanks they can build their combo on garuda while she is invulnerable to have butcher/halone ready for sister spawns.

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This. Also as WHM save Shroud of Saints for all clone phases and stoneskin tanks before clone phases. At start of clone phase I put SoS up, then Eye my tank (off tank), then divine seal regen both tanks. No hate issues ever.

Joining the choir here. I hate to say "it's a tank problem", but based on your description, it's a tank problem.

Consider: You're in the five-way tornado phase, MT has Garuda/Suparna, you get Suparna threat. You Shroud, Suparna goes away.. then comes back a short while later.

That reads like an AOE threat generation issue. The tank is failing to Flash or to occasionally do something to the target that isn't Garuda. (PLDs get Circle, WARs get Overpower, both classes can target-switch to ensure threat remains established.) An alternate problem would be if your tank is forgetting to use Shield Oath or Defiance between attempts; extra threat gen is needed to hold AOE... but that's an easy one to notice.

My only advice as a heal would be to tone down Regen/Med2 during Sister pops, but it sounds like you're already there. The tanks can't have you not-heal and expect to survive. And like the other WHMs here, I Regen/Med2 a-plenty without threat issues.

As a tank I use flash once on the add I am responsible for once they appear on my threat list (usually Suprana, since we usually do the kill Suprana first method and I am the MT). This establishes solid initial aggro, since there seems to be a delay in the threat generated by flash is established. As I move in place I use 1 shield lob, then CoS and flash again. Once in place I start a RoH rotation while starting my midigation. I havent lost aggro to a healer or a dps using this rotation on adds since the shield oath enimity buff. As a warrior I do practically the same thing except I use BS instead of CoS.

Honestly it sounds like something is up with your tanks.

First...If you are using 2 ways pull, e.g.
MT: Garuda + Suprana
OT: Chidara

All you have to heal should be only MT & OT.

Garuda's Friction always target 1 healer. So you should stay away from each other as well as tell range dps to do so.

Now let's move on.

If you are killing Chidara first, Garuda & Suprana will swap place (after Chidara's HP ~50%), thus resulting in swapping enmity between them.

If you are saying that you are aggroed by suprana. Make sure to notice whether it is before or after swap, so you'll know what went wrong.

IF before swap, then your tank doesn't make enough aggro on suprana.

IF after swap, it means you overaggro old garuda in vortex phase. This means either
1. your whole party taking too much and unnecessary damage up to that point (spread out in vortex after plumes are dead to avoid friction for whole party), or
2. you are overhealing too much (usually AoE heal after ministrel and reckoning)
3. your tank focus on suprana (before swap) too much.

I use Shroud of Saints when sisters first pop (pre-tornado phase) and then every time it is up after that.

In tornado phase, when the sisters are summoned the whole party should already be at full health and stoneskin on both tanks. So no regens should be active and no healing should be necessary. Not until the tanks have pulled their mobs to their assigned spots and have hate well established should you need to cast your first cure of this phase. Just refresh stoneskin once on the MT while you wait and then start in with regens and the healing once frictions start.

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Originally Posted by Jeykama

For tanks, it is possible to do a Fast/Skull at the very end of Mistral Shriek, Savage/Heavy when Garuda respawns, and have Halone/BB up for the sister to have gg threat for that phase, but as I said the timing is very strict and 1-2 seconds off will lose the combo.

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^It is good for your tanks to do this if they don't already.

It's your tanks :3

I can usually count to 5 after they spawn and be able to cure II, divine seal regen on both tanks, and heal the main tank without pulling agro.
Your tank should be tanking Suparna too, not just pulling initial hate and that's it.

Thanks for all the feedback guys, we went in last night after banging our heads against the wall a bit in twintania and one shot it, I just completely avoided medica II and only regened after the sisters were established hate, and we swapped which tank was on which add with our raid leader hammering into their head about the prepping their combo. I didn't get hate once. spiny plume was being a bit stupid, we had previously had me holding it as well so I could save shroud for then. So a combination of all that got it done.

Tanking issue, but there are some things you can do to reduce healing the raid. Keep in mind healers are targeted by friction and anyone stacked on you will also take damage. I ask that no one stack on the healers at any point after the pillars are down. Try to stand away from the other healer yourself. This will reduce a lot of damage to the raid. During tornado phases ask the scholar to main heal and have them stand on the opposite side of the room. We position the MT with Garuda and Sup SW, the OT with chirada NE, ranged dps and the WHM SE and the scholar NW by themself. The WHM stands where they can heal both tanks and ask that dps stand back so they don't get hit by friction.

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Originally Posted by HoolieWho

I use Shroud of Saints when sisters first pop (pre-tornado phase) and then every time it is up after that.

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Just a note here; Shroud's mechanic is to lower your threat on all enemies by 50% of its current value (while giving you some free MP, too). If you use Shroud the moment the Sisters pop, before you've got any real threat, you're basically using Shroud to cut your threat to 50% of almost-zero (since the Sisters don't pop with a deep threat count pre-built).

For threat purposes, it's more optimal to hold back on heals while tanks get threat, then do some healing, /then/ Shroud to cut any threat you built from your heals.

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Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur

Tanking issue, but there are some things you can do to reduce healing the raid. Keep in mind healers are targeted by friction and anyone stacked on you will also take damage. I ask that no one stack on the healers at any point after the pillars are down. Try to stand away from the other healer yourself. This will reduce a lot of damage to the raid. During tornado phases ask the scholar to main heal and have them stand on the opposite side of the room. We position the MT with Garuda and Sup SW, the OT with chirada NE, ranged dps and the WHM SE and the scholar NW by themself. The WHM stands where they can heal both tanks and ask that dps stand back so they don't get hit by friction.

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I might be wrong but doesn't friction spread out dmg on its targets? so that spreading out will make fewer people taking more dmg, versus a full group needing one medica to top off.

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Originally Posted by Nailkita

I might be wrong but doesn't friction spread out dmg on its targets? so that spreading out will make fewer people taking more dmg, versus a full group needing one medica to top off.

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Friction doesn't spread out damage. It's the same damage whether you get hit or other people and you get hit. My group does a bit different from Petite's group in that we have the SCH with the DPS to Succor and WHM separated to heal tank/cure III when needed but the idea is the same. Friction by Garuda only hits healers. Friction by Suparna/Chirada can aim at anyone but has circle on the ground.

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Originally Posted by Nailkita

I might be wrong but doesn't friction spread out dmg on its targets? so that spreading out will make fewer people taking more dmg, versus a full group needing one medica to top off.

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Lemon is correct. If you are stacking to "spread damage" this will contribute to your higher emnity. A simple regen or cure 1 on yourself or the other healer will be enough versus medica on the entire raid. When we do it this way (or Lemon's) the dps will take zero damage if they can dodge red circles with only occasional damage to one healer once every Garuda attack rotation. You can focus on keeping the melee topped off or even ask one healer to help dps.

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Originally Posted by Nailkita

I might be wrong but doesn't friction spread out dmg on its targets? so that spreading out will make fewer people taking more dmg, versus a full group needing one medica to top off.

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It's a downburst, not friction.

Unless you go with JP that use 3way pull, there is no need to share any downburst damage from chidara.