I've had no problems tanking any content skill or gear wise until I did Garuda Ex a short while ago with a WHM. Now I will throw down some basic PLD knowledge to start so people know:
TL;DR, skip to the line with >>>>> if you don't care about PLD mechanics.
While shield oath does increase enmity by 30%, it also reduces dmg done by 20%. Only a few PLD abilities have what is called an enmity modifier. That means some abilities do more enmity x dmg than others.
Most PLDs will pull with shield lob, then fast blade > savage blade > rage of halone. Some will add in off the GCD abilities like circle of win and spirits within. I have mine macro'd to my rotation with a /wait line so it goes off between the GCDs. If I need to not have them macro'd (waking up sleeping mobs with circle of win, silencing with spirits within on T2 for trash, etc) then I have the base abilities I can swap on my bars.
So the enmity modifiers, right? Shield Lob, Spirits Within, and Fast Blade do not have modifiers. So with shield oath up, they do dmg x 130%. Abilities with modifiers (they say additional effect: increased enmity") will do more threat. Those are Savage Blade (x6), and Rage of Halone (x10). There is more theory crafted math somewhere with more numbers but this isn't the point.
>>>>> The first ability we use to generate threat and start our combo, even with off the GCD abilities, does not generate enough threat to keep aggro off of you if you have Regen + Medica II HoT + Spamming Cure II or Medica AS I'M PULLING. Keyword is right at the pull. Not 2 seconds after or before. A crit heal will seal the deal with you dying unless I provoke but that has a 40 second cooldown. Oh, and since a lot of people don't seem to understand provoke, I will explain that as well:
It puts us at +1 enmity over whoever had the highest enmity when it hit. So we also have to hit the mob right after we do it. Know what that means? It means it's like starting the pull over again but with everyone already engaged with dots, hots, healing, and attacks. If the mob pulled over to you and is out of our melee range, we have to shield lob and try to get in range. Provoking does not immediately make you safe. If we provoke and you get a crit heal, well damnit, have fun.
There is no reason for this madness. Regen maybe to help ease the initial dmg but spamming cures as I'm pulling when no one has taken dmg is a no-no. I have not established threat with my measly shield lob > fast blade > spirits within. This is not a skill issue. This is low enmity generation at the start that ramps up.
Once I've gotten in at least a savage blade and going into rage of halone, threat is solid. A fully combo'd rage of halone produces ridiculous threat.
The whole point of this is to better educate WHMs since they seem unaware that they also produce a metric ton of enmity.
PLD enmity VS. Spam heals.
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01-30-2014, 06:04 PMNaxyrPLD enmity VS. Spam heals.
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01-30-2014, 06:51 PMTears-of-Death
If you are taking big spikes of damage on the pull you should pop a CD to mitigate the damage to stretch your stone skins and/or galvanize shields. Pop fight or flight and your 3 combo at start should be pretty good enough to keep initial agro.
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01-30-2014, 06:54 PMNaxyr
The point was WHMs spamming cures on the pull when no one has taken dmg, not damage mitigation. Please re-read.
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01-30-2014, 06:54 PMVelox
Well this would apply to either healing class really, it just so happens you had a WHM doing it in your party. A SCH spamming heals as you are pulling would have the same effect.
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01-30-2014, 07:01 PMTears-of-DeathNo need to be an ass. You edited it after the fact I posted so bugger off. If your whom is spamming cures then instruct him to only heal when damage is applied as all healing generates agro even if there is nothing to heal up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Naxyr
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01-30-2014, 07:25 PMNaxyrLast edited by Naxyr; Today at 03:07 AM. Reason: Longer postQuote:
Originally Posted by Tears-of-Death
Uhm, no? -
01-30-2014, 08:04 PMxAliceNo.. I read the post-edit, which I had read before you posted and is time stamped 47 minutes prior to yours. I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding somewhere. Anyhow, what I got from it was healers going crazy healing DURING the pull. That is, before the tank even stops moving and has yet to get any damage dealt to them (not sure how else to put it). Healers who have made it this far into the game to Garuda EX should know better than to drop Regens that early though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tears-of-Death
But yeah, thanks for the in-depth explanation. :) -
01-30-2014, 08:35 PMTears-of-Death
I probably missed the first edit after I loaded the topic then came back to it later without seeing the edit. I could say I didn't see the part about regens per fight so yea. Back to my second post just ask them to wait and see damage before applying regen and cure bombing.
The point is try to educate and mentor the healer. If you don't make any progress trying to teach them then its time to move on.
Some people do level from 1-50 without realizing there are jobs to specialize in and don't know how to manage their skills. Or they fate grind to the cap without developing their healing capabilities.
And in the worst case they came from WoW where HoTs and heals aren't necessarily as agro heavy where it was perfectly acceptable to pre hot.
Again my apologies. Posting mobile is odd at times. -
01-30-2014, 08:45 PMNaxyr
Well, the post was mostly to inform and I tried to leave out the bitchiness. The reason I felt the need to post it was because the WHM was ilvl 90 and experienced... but was tossing a fit because she kept getting aggro. I'm hoping this post will at least be seen by many healers so they get a little insight on how tanking is. A lot of people just look at their own class and nothing else.
Regen is easy enough to fight through, but medica II hot, regen, and then spamming big heals right after I shield lob... that kinda screws the whole group. -
01-30-2014, 09:31 PMPikken
This is an important point Naxyr. I myself main WHM but also have a PLD with decent gear. I helps when you get to see both sides.
Regen and Medica II are great healing spells, but the first thing you need to learn about them is that they should never be on when new mobs are about to enter the fight. So this applies both to a pull and anytime in a fight when adds will spawn.
For example the split on coil 1, Garuda or Titan Ex last phase. WHMs must time their heals so Medica II is never up when adds spawn, and preferably not any regens either.
And of course healing in general should be as "little as possible" when things join the fight. Stoneskin before pull gives you a few seconds at start where you dont need to heal. But in fights where things spawn you need to work hard to top tank (and possibly raid) up just before they spawn.
This is basically a matter of healer skill and experience. -
01-30-2014, 10:09 PMMissesWonderful
Quoted from the other thread. It really isn't hard to hold through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenhope
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01-31-2014, 01:05 AMMenae
The people you want to help with this thread are the very same people who probably don't care enough to read these forums.
Sorry, Nax. -
01-31-2014, 03:29 AMYuriRamonaThis is all you need to know. The curing ticks on Regen and Medica II will accumulate enmity even when the tank is at full HP. This means that you're gaining 200 potency of enmity every 3 seconds. If you do any curing on top of that, you'll likely rip enmity at the start of the pull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikken