Classes and Jobs - The issue of creating unique jobs

As far as I know, SE plans on adding additional jobs to the current classes. The big issue I see is that each class is very rooted into a core rotation that is minimally affected by its job. The multiple jobs worked well with arcanist because the class was designed from the start to support two seperate roles, but not every class seems to be built in such a way that different jobs would create different playstyles. The root of the issue is that there are only 5 job specific skills, most of which are situational or passive.

Take Pugalist/Monk as an example. The entire class is built around moving through its 3 forms with its 6 primary attack moves, all of which but one are pugalist skills. No matter what they do with the 5 skills there can't be much of a difference in play-style because it is so closely tied to its core rotation.

The same can be said of lancer/Dragoon, and I'm sure most other classes.

This is on top of issues such as instantly being level capped with a job as soon as it comes out because you already leveled its base class, creates more RNG on bosses that drop job specific gear, and stat allocation being tied to the class instead of the job.

They already said future Jobs will have more serious effects on Class Skills than current jobs.

Future Jobs will even completely change Class skills into new skills or change their effects and potency to suit their new roles.

GLA and MAR 2nd Jobs, for example, will have their Tank enmity skills changed into DPS Skills with DPS buff effects or debuff effects or perform higher potency with the increase enmity effect completely removed if they are given a DPS job.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

They already said future Jobs will have more serious effects on Class Skills than current jobs.

Future Jobs will even completely change Class skills into new skills or change their effects and potency to suit their new roles.

GLA and MAR 2nd Jobs, for example, will have their Tank enmity skills changed into DPS Skills with DPS buff effects or debuff effects or perform higher potency with the increase enmity effect completely removed if they are given a DPS job.

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Where was this said, can you provide a link to the source?

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Originally Posted by Vanifae

Where was this said, can you provide a link to the source?

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Ah found it
http://www.secrets-eorzea.com/en/new...rets-of-eorzea

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The Secrets of Eorzea (SOE)

Will you make the second jobs very different from their class or first job? For example, the Dark Knight is a very aggressive job and since you seem to want it to become the second Gladiator job (This has never been confirmed but since Yoshi-P always uses it as an example, you never know... ), don't you think Gladiator's abilities are in contradiction with his style?

• Naoki Yoshida (NY):

I see what you mean. We created the system, but we do not necessarily need to follow it all the time. For example, let’s say that the Dark Knight is the second Gladiator job (attention, it is still not a confirmation), when you get its job stone at level 30, all acquired Gladiator skills will certainly be modified to better fit the image of the Dark Knight.

It was just to give an example to explain that we are not going to destroy how players consider different classes / jobs. It could be an interesting way to introduce future classes / jobs. We will consider your concerns on this issue, rest assured.
This should make things more interesting, don't you think?

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For GLD (as another example), a dps job could make use of the mp generating attack - Riot Blade. Instead of the standard PLD rotation Fast Blade->Savage Blade->RoH, use Fast Blade->Riot Blade->Lightning Strike.
Pugilist does seem harder to handle .. I haven't leveled that enough to get a feel for it.

When they add a new class it should start at lvl 1 anyway and let us get the feel of the new class and not have one base class that branches off into 2 jobs like the Arcanist which have a stat distribution problem unless SE fixes said problem. Final fantasy 14/ARR has been waiting long enough for the musketeer class and we should not have to wait for them to increase the level cap in some unknown future patch just to get another class. Does the players here want to wait 3 or more years to get a new class I don't think so, vent ended sorry about that.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

They already said future Jobs will have more serious effects on Class Skills than current jobs.

Future Jobs will even completely change Class skills into new skills or change their effects and potency to suit their new roles.

GLA and MAR 2nd Jobs, for example, will have their Tank enmity skills changed into DPS Skills with DPS buff effects or debuff effects or perform higher potency with the increase enmity effect completely removed if they are given a DPS job.

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im hoping this is true, because it will be nice to have variety, but me personally, i would rather have more customization than just this

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Ah found it
http://www.secrets-eorzea.com/en/new...rets-of-eorzea

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Awesome, thanks

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Originally Posted by Hollow_Tears

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Muskteer class will probably get 2 Jobs when it is released anyways because they have more time to work on this class and what the 2 Jobs will require to unlock and cross-skills to obtain.

2nd Jobs for current classes are not only being held back by development but also there isn't a cross-class yet to introduce most of them into their 2nd Job.

For example, if Archer is to get a 2nd Job that 2nd Job may require Musketeer class as the lvl 15 required cross-class.

by 1st expansion there should be enough new classes to introduce most of 2nd Jobs of current classes if they add enough new classes in 1st expansion. (I'm looking at you Scout class and Melee Mage class)

"I see what you mean. We created the system, but we do not necessarily need to follow it all the time. For example, let’s say that the Dark Knight is the second Gladiator job (attention, it is still not a confirmation), when you get its job stone at level 30, all acquired Gladiator skills will certainly be modified to better fit the image of the Dark Knight.

It was just to give an example to explain that we are not going to destroy how players consider different classes / jobs. It could be an interesting way to introduce future classes / jobs. We will consider your concerns on this issue, rest assured.This should make things more interesting, don't you think?"





While that sounds good It isn't. So lets use the GLD/DRK. We would have all GLD skills until level 30 and then when we equip a DRK crystal all skills change to better fit DRK? So what will they do change all the skills to new skills or just modify what each skill does? Like Fast blade is 150 potency @ lvl30 it will change to 300 potency? Or will they Change Fast Blade to Hard Slash? But that is assuming they are able to use Greatswords. Why not create a new Base Class that uses Great sword?

Some will make perfect sense, while others will be very hard to adapt. The Conjurer becoming a Geomancer for instance would be great. They already have a DPS stance and some wind/earth abilities. The job itself could add stone 3/Aero 3 and then Water, Tornado and Earthquake. The only thing they may have to alter are the traits to include the DPS abilities.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

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They mean skills will be either changed into new skills or adjusted to suit the new role or Job.

For example, going by GLA -> Dark Knight

For a minor change we will see..
If Dark Knight Follows a DPS role skills like Flash Blade will be kept the same but Savage Blade will have the enmity effect removed.

Medium Change will be like

Rage of Halone animation changed to fight a Dark theme attack compared to GLA/PLD version being a light theme attack with the enmity effect removed with its Potency increased from 260 into 300 potency.

Major Change would be...

Flash skill replaced by a new Skill called Darkness which turns this from a Enmity generating skill into a AoE Damage skill that does ??? Potency damage to all enemies in Melee range with a cloud of darkness spreading around the Dark Knight instead of generating Enmity like Flash with a flash of light appearing around the GLA/PLD.

They will not, however, give GLA a new weapon like a two-handed sword and they have stated all new weapons will be for new classes. If you're looking for a Two-handed sword class/JOb you will need to wait for the Two-handed Sword class they have planned which most likely won't appear until 1st expansion or Post 1st expansion Major Updates.

i still dont understand the point of the classes, i mean pre 30 and you have more abilities than the jobs, always makes me sad during a duty that an arcanist can cast stoneskin yet i can't on my whm >.>

I sure hope they don't add new jobs to current classes. I'll be pretty disappointed if the day the expansion comes out I am already lvl 50 and have i80 gear before even playing the job.

I was talking to friends about cnj second job could possibly be Geomancer. It would focus on the elemental side of conjurer and not as much on the heal side.

Secondary class would of course be THM, to encompass the rest of the elements.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I sure hope they don't add new jobs to current classes. I'll be pretty disappointed if the day the expansion comes out I am already lvl 50 and have i80 gear before even playing the job.

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You can't complain when those new Jobs will require the new Classes.

It is already planned for all classes to have at least 2 Jobs so current classes are already behind their 2 Job plan due to the lack of enough classes in the game currently to be used as their lvl 15 required class and cross-skills.

We will most likely see 2nd Jobs for current classes for 1st expansion since new classes will be released by then. Also the level cap raise in 1st expansion will require people to level the current classes again if they introduce new cross skill in the lvl 51+ range.

Arcanist is only the first to get its 2 Jobs.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

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I like the change of Flash to Darkness. But if they were to do some major changes like that (Which I think they should) then why not just give a new base class. And while speaking of DRK even though they used sword before Greatswords, I think most want them using Greatswords from what I've seen. I really could careless about weapons (what I said about DRK).

I would rather see them give new jobs, new base class abilities outside of cross-class, than to see them rework current abilities. If they did that then at least they would be unique. Now maybe for some classes it could work.

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Originally Posted by Bracken

i still dont understand the point of the classes, i mean pre 30 and you have more abilities than the jobs, always makes me sad during a duty that an arcanist can cast stoneskin yet i can't on my whm >.>

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Or how the lancer case stoneskin on the party....

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Originally Posted by Versiroth

Some will make perfect sense, while others will be very hard to adapt. The Conjurer becoming a Geomancer for instance would be great. They already have a DPS stance and some wind/earth abilities. The job itself could add stone 3/Aero 3 and then Water, Tornado and Earthquake. The only thing they may have to alter are the traits to include the DPS abilities.

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The opposite is true. CNJ has only 4 damage abilities (5 if you count Fluid Aura), and one of them is all but never used (Stone). Furthermore, Cleric Stance is an obstacle. The ability swaps healing and damaging stats, which means you'd still be MND-focused and basically just be a competent DPS and healer both. For any content where a second healer isn't necessary all the time (which is most content), you'd take the Geomancer instead. That's not to mention the issue with giving the player access to two jobs with the same bonus stat.

CNJ is the dead-on worst job to fix. It has 4 damage spells and two universal damage-related traits (Maim and Mend). It has nothing for tanking at all unless you want to count Stoneskin's marginally-related utility. It's less-suited to another role than any other class -- even GLA.

//EDIT:

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Originally Posted by Bracken

i still dont understand the point of the classes

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I should find Kitru's response to this, which I feel is the best explanation. The gist of it is that jobs serve a story progression function. Any schmuck can join the Arcanists' guild. Walk in, ask for a book, get crackin'. When you become a Scholar, however, you're reviving an art lost 1500 years ago with the fall of the Nym. A job means that your character has been able to excel, to be come something remarkable. Part of growing as a character in Eorzea is surpassing the ordinary sods at the Gladiators' guild and joining the Sultansworn Elite.

There is some modification of skills already within the game. With SMN, once you complete the quests to summon Titan and Gardua, using the skills Summon 1 & 2 is altered to no longer summon Emerald or Topaz Carby, but the appropriate egi instead.

Also, using those same skills with a SCH Soul Crystal equipped will call Eos or Selene instead of Carby.

So one need look no further than that to see how this could be implemented with future jobs.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

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The amount of change most likely will be small and mostly limited to a select few animation, potency and effect changes to a few skills while keeping most of GLA original skills. Not quite enough for a new class but just enough to keep most of GLA concept in tacked like what they did with Arcanist and Scholar.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

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Most likely it will play out like Arcanist with Scholar for CNJ and Geomencer. Getting more DPS skills through Geo Job Quests.

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Originally Posted by EdwinLi

Most likely it will play out like Arcanist with Scholar for CNJ and Geomencer. Getting more DPS skills through Geo Job Quests.

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Your DPS job would have at best 9 DPS spells, 9 healing spells, no interesting mechanics, and identical equipment and bonus stats to WHM. You'd basically have a second WHM with a few extra DPS spells, and WHM already has the AoE nuke in the form of Holy. Moreover, WHM already has as high INT as you can get in Cleric Stance along with a 10% damage buff out of it. You'd have to completely replace Stone/II and Aero/II as well to have any reason to bring Geomancer DPS.

If you want a DPS job out of CNJ, you will have to take some of the healing abilities and completely replace them.

as stated by yoshida, they can modify the class skill for fit the role of the jobs added to the second jobs of any class.

let's take the example of the pugilist and conjurer.

for the conjurer, it seem pretty clear that the second jobs will be geomancer (mostly because the skill are based on the element and in french the class is called elementalist) they can make all the light spell become water spell when you become conjurer and even add an element type wood from them. it only recquire to change the healing capacity into an offensive capacity or debuffing one.

for the pugilist, i think they can introduce the jobs of dancer, using the stance as the mouvement of dance, the combo system can be changed for fit into this, instead to attack skill of pugilist you will have step of dance, leading to some buff or healing done, i can perfectly imagine this and how it will be really interesting as gameplay.

they are free to make anything since this statement from yoshida, but actually i think they will add what we miss before add second jobs from the actual class present. what i means by what we miss?
- dual dagger user (or dagger)
- 2h sword user
- gun user.
- mace/2h mace user

from Final Fantasy viewpoint or even mmorpg, the lack of dagger and two hand sword feel really strange. and before you say that we have two hand axe, they are not used in the same way ^^

I think that geomancers in ff tactics were more of a support/ dps class if I remember correctly. The cnj class will give them basic elemental and supportive skills and the job can expand on that.

Irrespective of the rest of the discussion, great swords could probably be done as a sword that disallows using the shield slot (rather than an entirely separate weapon). They already have armor that takes up 2 slots so the basic object class should be there.

There are plenty of ways they could shake up a new pugilist job. Here is some stuff off the top of my head.

1) Ascetic Form:
A buff similar to Warrior's Defiance ability. Using Ascetic form nullifies greased lightning. While Ascetic Form is active, using abilities fills up a gauge. Let's call it the Chakra Gauge.

2) New ability: Chakra! - based on the form you are in, expends your Chakra Gauge.
Trigger Chakra during Raptor = Spike Damage single target nuke. The more Chakra built up = the more the burst damage
Trigger Chakra during Coeurl = Mana Regen for team. More Chakra built up = more mana regen.
Trigger Chakra during Opo-Opo = something, maybe a TP related buff, or increased skill speed for nearby allies. This would make them synergize with monk/dragoon.

3) Wave Fist - requires Chakra. Ranged attack that will hit multiple enemies around your target with aero force. Good AOE nuke but the trade off is that requires chakra to be useful, so it won't rival BLM aoe or Holy.
While other Chakra abilities will require a specific form, Wave Fist will be neutral and can be used in any form.

4) A new off cooldown ability like Steel Peak, except with a very short cooldown. This means you will do more weaving attacks than a monk, and will need to fit weaving attacks into your rotation much more. So instead of greased lightning, this will still render a pretty fast play-style.

5) Change perfect balance so that it no longer does anything with forms, but instead grants a full Chakra gauge.

I think that's all enough to change the playstyle of monk quite a bit.


ANYWHO

I don't think Scholar and Summoner are an exception to the rule at all. If you think Scholar and Summoner work as different jobs, I think they could easily make a lot of other interesting jobs for other classes.