How about a compromise?

Make Coil becoming easier optional. Players who beat it on original difficulty get an achievement and/or token(s) for special weapons a la EX. Players who simply want to get to the next stepping stone can opt for the echo buff.

Casual players who want to progress can progress.
Players who want to feel proud of their achievements get a special something the casual players can't.

Done.

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Originally Posted by OmegaFlare

Then the casual players are going to cry about not getting the tokens for the special weapons.

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How so? If they want it, then they can beat Twintania on normal difficulty. The option is still there. By making the nerfs optional and giving you the freedom to choose (similar to normal mode and hard mode, or in this case, "easy" mode and normal mode), you cater to both groups without alienating either. You don't hear people crying about not being able to get the EX weapons.

My 0.02~

Facts:

We currently have caps because there is nothing beyond the content.
People who currently don't do Coil, in all likelihood, are not going to do the new content either.

Idea:

Current Coil remains the same as it is, no change in difficulty, the only change is the removal of the lockout.
Duty Finder "Easy Mode" Coil has the lockouts current Coil has.

Result:

People who are going to do the new content can spam old Coil to gear themselves.
People who aren't going to do new Coil can still do old Coil.
If "Casuals" want to progress iLv90 faster, the challenge themselves with old Coil.
"Casuals" become better at the game as a result.

Other note:

Gear from Coil presumably isn't even going to be that worthwhile anymore, what with new Tomestone and new Coil gear. Mythology should lose its cap as well, with the introduction of new Tomestones. There is also the possibility of them adding new crafted gear in the iLv80~90 range; with Materia that should be great, and we got tV matter from the main quest last update which is redundant at the moment, hint hint. My point here? Current Coil gear shouldn't particularly matter to people not doing it, Mythology/craft/etc gear easily fills that hole. The point of making Coil easier is so they can progress the story.

I would like this. I wouldn't even care about the achievement if I'm honest, I just want to get a legitimate win against Twintania rather than steamroll her once she's turned into a shell of her former self.

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Originally Posted by TeganLaron

I would like this. I wouldn't even care about the achievement if I'm honest, I just want to get a legitimate win against Twintania rather than steamroll her once she's turned into a shell of her former self.

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You got 3 months to do it, since they told us the patch will be out then. You have plenty of time.

Then the casual players are going to cry about not getting the tokens for the special weapons.

IMHO SE should just sell some coil stickers for the "casuals" to make their allaghan cosplay equip and leave the content alone.
Yeah, allaghan stickers instead of tomestones. You'll get equip for the look but no stats.

If the difficulty is going to be handled using the echo buff as everyone assumes then the content itself isn't being touched. Instead players just get a buff to make themselves stronger with every wipe. Old coil will still be old coil, it'll just have the lockout removed. We also don't know if a loot lockout ala CT will be imposed in it's place either.

Bear in mind also that SE seems to like having a lore-friendly reason for there being different difficulties of some instances. I can't see a reason why Coil would suddenly get easier and have two different versions of the place. The other HMs actually take place after the normal modes...

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Originally Posted by Zumi

You got 3 months to do it, since they told us the patch will be out then. You have plenty of time.

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It's nearly February and the patch is in March...3 months?

My .02


No?

I'm a casual player, and I support the idea of Coil being nerfed optionally. Or an alternative version of Coil for the casual players, or pretty much anything other than just making it easier for everyone.

(Also, I may be a casual player, but it bothers me that just about every patch, something is being made easier due to player complaints)

Or could just put a special icon(along those lines) on the gear info if obtained through with it dumbed down. If they don't want the special icon on gear to show they obtained it with difficulty dumbed down, then they can go through it without it being dumbed down.

But yeah I doubt anything will be done to show who obtained gear through it normally or dumbed down. >.>

Best idea would be achievement. Anyone that's got a record of beating T1-5 pre-2.2 gets the achievement. Make a new tab for it and call it something like Veteran or Dominator or something. Give the ones that beat it pre-2.2 a little something that doesn't do anything but make their e-peen bigger. No vanity items, no special mounts.

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Originally Posted by TeganLaron

It's nearly February and the patch is in March...3 months?

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You forgot about the week lock outs so actually about 8 attempts tops... Well at least on the HM... I think they need to stop nerfing shit... I like the difficulty of coil and its not going to be as enjoyable after the patch...

Personally, I couldn't care less if people get equip, achievement, icons etc.
I just want to beat the content the way it's designed, without being "pitied" by the devs because I didn't reach that stage fast enough to enjoy it.

Even if I get better equip and get an easier fight, it will be because I worked to get that equip and not because some who knows what unique special power that in the end everyone has throws a +20% stats to me.

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Originally Posted by Ere

My wife was just watching the live letter (she is japanese) and what she said to me is Yoshii said that there will ba a buff that makes coil eaiser with each passing week. Players are also able to turn the buff off so coil 1-5 wont be made easier but players will gain a power that makes it easier but is optional.

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If they keep it that way, it would be good.

My wife was just watching the live letter (she is japanese) and what she said to me is Yoshii said that there will ba a buff that makes coil eaiser with each passing week. Players are also able to turn the buff off so coil 1-5 wont be made easier but players will gain a power that makes it easier but is optional.

Not to sound like a dick or anything, but you guys do realize that SE stated this would happen before the game was even released, right? It's been a well known and documented fact for many months that as new content is released older content will be made easier. I mean, seriously, what did you think was going to happen? Did you, for some reason, think that Coil would be excluded from that? Or did you just think it was never actually going to happen, despite being told by official reps repeatedly that it would?

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Originally Posted by Marael

Not to sound like a dick or anything, but you guys do realize that SE stated this would happen before the game was even released, right? It's been a well known and documented fact for many months that as new content is released older content will be made easier. I mean, seriously, what did you think was going to happen? Did you, for some reason, think that Coil would be excluded from that? Or did you just think it was never actually going to happen, despite being told by official reps repeatedly that it would?

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I can't speak for everyone else, but personally I'm just shocked at the speed of it happening. Even with new Coil Turns coming, I think it's a bit premature to be nerfing the hardest content in the game already.

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Originally Posted by Ed_N_Ants

You forgot about the week lock outs so actually about 8 attempts tops... Well at least on the HM... I think they need to stop nerfing shit... I like the difficulty of coil and its not going to be as enjoyable after the patch...

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Uh you can spam twin as much as you want to get a single clear in until March. Honestly if you haven't cleared it by then then you need the nerf and the next challenge of hopefully equal or more difficulty will be in 6-9. There will still be content of that difficulty.

I mean it's reasonable to give a 6 month timeframe to down the hardest content before you move on to the next challenge, you have to call it at some point. Coil has and always will be hardcore progression content so you gotta keep up.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Uh you can spam twin as much as you want to get a single clear in until March. Honestly if you haven't cleared it by then then you need the nerf and the next challenge of hopefully equal or more difficulty will be in 6-9. There will still be content of that difficulty.

I mean it's reasonable to give a 6 month timeframe to down the hardest content before you move on to the next challenge, you have to call it at some point. Coil has and always will be hardcore progression content so you gotta keep up.

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Not everyone lives on the game 24/7 though. I'm not saying you do, or even knocking those who do, but I'm just saying everyone is different. It took me well over a month just to get my first level 50 because I just play the game slower overall. Why should I be denied the opportunity to take on Twintania the proper way just because I don't spend as long on the game as you do? Or more importantly, why does it matter to you what other people are doing on Twintania? You will be off doing T6-9 anyway.

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Uh you can spam twin as much as you want to get a single clear in until March. Honestly if you haven't cleared it by then then you need the nerf and the next challenge of hopefully equal or more difficulty will be in 6-9. There will still be content of that difficulty.

I mean it's reasonable to give a 6 month timeframe to down the hardest content before you move on to the next challenge, you have to call it at some point. Coil has and always will be hardcore progression content so you gotta keep up.

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I don't get why someone else gotta decide that timeframe in my place.
My static started a bit late with coil, doesn't do coil everyday, and with the time we had we finally reached turn 5. I don't see why I pay and someone else gotta decide how much I should play and if I need a nerf or not.

It doesn't really matter, for what it's worth I don't agree with a nerf this early but I don't really care either way. They have made it clear very early that is the design philosophy of this game, that old content will be nerfed as soon as new content comes out for the hardcore progression players with the idea that is satisfies both casual players and the progression crowd. I think this leaves a void in the middle though, and if I was game director nerfs will be way down the track. The difficulty ceiling should be high and not just a single piece of brand new content with everything else zeroed out, giving a vast spectrum of difficulty with all sorts of players at different stages.

To be honest though Twintania as it stands is something you need to grind out in a group, with no quitters or impatient people. I believe way more people could do it as it stands if they stop regarding coil as a 1-4 job, get everyone together for a straight weekend and play all day non-stop. I say this as someone who cleared it well after BG and certainly didn't down it fast, but it's content at a level where if you have a slow pace and never have long sessions it might be out of reach, and you get stuck in a rut. You have the opportunity to do it right now, but you have to put in a fair amount of work that I won't call casual play to down it, and if you can't then the nerf is probably what it will come to.

It is entirely possible to create content where a certain amount of casualness just doesn't meet the bar, and it's reasonable to expect it in content that the developers specifically branded as "hardcore content". When game developers dictate design decisions they are in fact, deciding many things for you including the timeframe. That is their right as a designer.

As I said though I don't agree with removing it altogether, game experiences should never be completely removed from the possibility to play it but in MMOs it's a matter of when not if.

Also I'd like to point out, that the amount of complaints about nerfs would be a thimble compared to how many there would be if they didn't nerf T5 when 6-9 comes out, considering downing twin is a requirement. All the whining about being denied content, Yoshida is damned if he does damned if he doesn't.