The Pigeonhole

So I've been seeing these posts for sometime and it's become quite apparent to me as well. All "jobs" are getting pigeonholed into playing a certain way, even though we have subclass abilities to allow us to supposedly diversify.

I've played PLD and WAR predominantly since 2.0 release (and beta), but recently I've branched out more and now also play BLM and SCH along with an up and coming BRD. My gripe, like most others is that once you pick up a job you get pigeonholed into a certain role. Now normally I'm all for specializing and focusing in on certain roles, but there's a few reasons that I, like so many others, am not enjoying it so much here.

1. lackluster subclass abilities. The cross class abilities that are on offer are either not suitable (there are to many in this category to list) or they don't provide much benefit because of missing class traits etc

2. Abilities that should be great, but aren't. the immediate abilities that springs to mind here for me is Cure for a PLD. No body expects this to be a massive heal or a complete life saver... but healing 240 HP when you have 6.5K HP on a 2 second cast is completely useless.

3. The pigeonhole. here is the main gripe that I see, SE have included a cross class system to help diversify classes and give people the ability to wield powers outside of the job they are currently playing. But to contradict this, we are so tightly pigeonholed into this job, with such a narrow role that these abilities become benign and seemingly useless. By squarely pushing these jobs into set roles, SE have denied the diversity offered through a cross class system, effectively severing any ability to make use of any cross class abilities outside of what our set roles require.

Now I love this game, and I enjoy playing because it is a great game with great things to offer. But how can I take advantage of my cross class skills when they don't fit with the role that I'm being pigeonholed into?

Hey man you DO have choices!



Like, like... Like you could cross-class Savage Blade or Skull Sunder and hope that maybe in patch 2.9 (release date: December 2017) SE will let you combo it.

The customization in this game is absolutely pathetic. Everyone wears the exact same un-dyeable gear, cross-classes the same abilities, and uses identical rotations. For a game that repeatedly boasts about its revolutionary armoury system it's unreal how few legitimate options you actually have.

Because that's kind of the point of Jobs. Classes are versatile and able to do other things besides it's designated role if you pick and choose the right gear and cross-class abilities. Jobs prevent such versatility but greatly improve your capacity to perform it's given role.

Conjurer can be a viable magic damage dealer, but White Mage will always be a healer. Lancer could probably pull off being a tank, but Dragoon will always be a melee damage dealer. The only problem is that such versatility with classes can't really be exploited in party settings, since you need to be really good in your role in order to not suck and die and probably make your whole party die. When you're walking into Titan EX, nobody's really going to care how good your healer Thaumaturge is when the Scholar and White Mage perform that role a thousand times better and with less effort.

I feel the same about paladin cross abilities. As you stated cure is just terrible; you'll take more damage while casting it than it heals. I feel warriors got a better deal from our (gladiator) abilities but we get some of their less useful ones. I'd love an AoE damage ability before 50.

If paladins have cure spells good enough to keep themselves alive, then what's the point of having healers? This isn't a single player game you know.

Using this PLD Cure as an example, would it be ok if they made it possible to have a insta-cast proc in it via riot blade maybe? keep the current potency while reducing/removing cast-time to make it more usable.

every battle in this game has only 1 way to win, every movement must be executed perfectly, giving some personalization to jobs or importance to classes will require real battle desing and balance.

Imagine a WHM using manawall to avoid getting hit by ladslide, or a dragoon using provoke to keep spiny plumes on grauda ex to aleviate tanking stress, SE want us to die ultil we find the victory road they desingned for us, we wont see personalization until they change their mind about this trial and error system.

@Nahara

Clases are useless no matter how you combine them, the stat boost and skills jobs gets makes them more useful than any combination you could make, SE dont want us to use classes.

I have Paladin and Warrior both 50 in Relic, and never have i felt the need to stop tanking and spam Cure on myself. Its nice as a pick me up between phases, But i have healers to heal me, why do i need to do it myself?

I think people are missing the point here getting caught up on the cure pld example.

Let me give another example. In v1.0 the abilities you could cross class were so much more varied it's ridiculous. You want to play as a DRK? They don't need to add the job, just play as a MRD and cross class THM spells and LNC abilities. You could actually use Fire, Aero etc. As a melee class.

That's how the armoury system was advertised. You levelled up classes to unlock abilities you can then use on other classes.

Now it's just pointless. We have effectively zero class customisation. Not even a trait tree or anything which is usually the bare minimum in an MMORPG. And it's a shame.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nahara

Conjurer can be a viable magic damage dealer, but White Mage will always be a healer. Lancer could probably pull off being a tank, but Dragoon will always be a melee damage dealer.

---

Stop talking nonsense please. Conjurer as a damage dealer? Because Raging Strikes and Blood for Blood will turn them into
a viable damage dealer? Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.

Lancer as a tank? Skull Sunder and Savage Blade will turn them into a viable tank? Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.

Maybe some skills are useless, but the level 22 lancer skill (I forgot the name) that lets you restore 400 TP is awesome for any class that uses TP, that alone was worth the cross class abilities for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deifact

snip

---

Lmao, YES! lets cast spells as a marauder at 50 with my 78 INT! It'll hit for ... 20 damage if I'm lucky?

lolllllllllllllllllll

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Synestra

Using this PLD Cure as an example, would it be ok if they made it possible to have a insta-cast proc in it via riot blade maybe? keep the current potency while reducing/removing cast-time to make it more usable.

---

Then you give those Riot Blade spamming tanks more reasons to use it? It's bad enough watching them try and hold hate on packs of enemies. They would need to re-tool many abilities, however I'd rather they bring back the one from 1.0 where you had a half decent cure on yourself or it would be an even more potent cure on another party member and heal you for half of what it did for them as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wobi

Then you give those Riot Blade spamming tanks more reasons to use it? It's bad enough watching them try and hold hate on packs of enemies. They would need to re-tool many abilities, however I'd rather they bring back the one from 1.0 where you had a half decent cure on yourself or it would be an even more potent cure on another party member and heal you for half of what it did for them as well.

---

They could change Enhanced Convalescence to increase heals by others to 30% and self heals, ie cure, to do 200% more healing. This way you could properly self heal only during the buff so you're not a one man healing army. This way Gladiators/Paladins get a useful self heal but still need healers.

Thoughts?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylve

Lmao, YES! lets cast spells as a marauder at 50 with my 78 INT! It'll hit for ... 20 damage if I'm lucky?

---

he's talking about 1.0, back then you were able to use traits from other clasess and all the gear was crossclass, with elemental and damage weakness and resistances a gladiator could use some magic to exploit a weakness even to build TP/stamina, ofcourse it would be useless now, but its because the whole structure of the game is bad.

Also he broght an insteresting point, how will SE make an hybrid job like darknight? with the game like it is now, it would be overpowered or just useless, or maybe another bard, that is bard just by name... if they dont balance things to bring some personalization hybrid jobs like darknigh wont happen or they will just be another joke job like bard, because who will play brd once we get ranger?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renik

snip

---

Dark Knight is easy, Traits to give a STR -> INT conversion + bonus magic damage percentiles. Hell, a Cleric Stance like buff would work also. Though its yet another reason to make the DK its own base class to become a job from.

Ranger is also easy, Bards are useful enough just for their songs and mobility. Rangers I'd hope to have more cast time shots to truly differentiate them.

Personally i just want Riot Blade to combo Flash for a "Flashburn" effect so Flash can deal some damage when used in a combo.

We're going to give you 30 stat points to distribute into whatever stat you want to! Except everyone is going to dump all 30 into their primary stat.
We're going to give you cross class skills to make your jobs unique! Except they're so limited and restrictive that everyone is going to choose the same ones.
We're going to give you dyes so you can create a unique look! Except it doesn't work on 90% of the gear in the game so everyone ends up looking the same.
We're going to give you different sets of gear with different stats so you can pick and choose what works for you! Except the spell speed stat sucks and everyone is going to stack crit.

Everything in this game is an illusion of choice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renik

every battle in this game has only 1 way to win

---

Lies, Turn 2 has 2 ways to win, Rot or Enrage method.

All these complaints make me miss the FFXI job system and how much variety it offered.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Deifact

I think people are missing the point here getting caught up on the cure pld example.

Let me give another example. In v1.0 the abilities you could cross class were so much more varied it's ridiculous. You want to play as a DRK? They don't need to add the job, just play as a MRD and cross class THM spells and LNC abilities. You could actually use Fire, Aero etc. As a melee class.

That's how the armoury system was advertised. You levelled up classes to unlock abilities you can then use on other classes.

Now it's just pointless. We have effectively zero class customisation. Not even a trait tree or anything which is usually the bare minimum in an MMORPG. And it's a shame.

---

This exactly.
I remember in 1.0 tanking on my THM, this was back before they destroyed the class to add BLM. Threw on some plate, 1h shield, provoke, rampart, threaten(I think it was called this), etc. It worked pretty well. Now, the armory system is butchered butchered and THM is a travesty compared to what it was, but that is another topic. Anyone interested go look up the original 1.0 THM skills.

The whole armoury system seems like a leftover from 1.0, just like crafting.
It became clear that they have no intention of making it better since they made Thunder exclusive to thaumaturge.

I think using the heal for PLDs as an example was the wrong choice, people seem to have misunderstood and think I want it to be this amazing ability that lets you solo tank without the need for healers. What I meant by using it as an example, is that in its current state not a single PLD uses cure, though the majority will have picked it as a cross class ability because the rest of the abilities you can choose from are just as useless.

This is not just limited to PLD either, all classes have 5 cross class abilities they can choose from, however, there is usually only 1 or 2 abilities that are useful but they don't do anything aside from slightly buff your core role. Remove any, or even all cross class abilities and you still won't see any real difference in how people play or how effective their core role is. Pigeonholing is the term used when things are classified into single categories despite the fact that they could fit into multiple categories, and that is what jobs essentially do, they place your class into a category with a defined purpose, negating the fact that we have access to cross class skills. To help make matters worse, instead of embracing this ability to diversify (which was clearly the point), the skills we get access to are so watered down and/or unusable that we are further forced into this pigeonhole.

As pointed out earlier in this thread, hybrid classes like DRK can't possibly function with this current setup and the only way they will become a viable class is if SE stops pigeonholing and embraces the diversity that was claimed as a major attribute for FFXIV.

Agreed. From your post I see you haven't touched SMN yet, but the cross-class abilities are really pathetic for it too. The job itself is still very versatile, but outside of Raging Strikes and Swiftcast, they're mostly unusable. It's sad that out of 2/5 choices of cross-class abilities are all we really get to work with...which of course, every SMN [should] be using. It's not much of a customization as it is a branching attempt to fool us into freedom of choice...which mostly failed.

FFXIV is still a baby. The development team has to work to expand the game, at the moment the game is still stretching it's legs, it's not old enough to think of great things. It's still learning to crawl.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScummyGuy

All these complaints make me miss the FFXI job system and how much variety it offered.

---

Now that is the true definition of pigeonholed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ScummyGuy

Lies, Turn 2 has 2 ways to win, Rot or Enrage method.

---

They really should do something about that "enrage method." Enrage is supposed to be the end of a fight, not like heal spam -- tank and spank mode.
Someone coded that badly and now SE doesn't want to change it cause people like it like that apparently.

Party finder is full of people just wanting to do turn 2 enrage method... I mean like, how did they all get past turn 1 and not have cleared turn 2, not only that, but they also now want to do that way... :/

I wouldn't care but, Coil is such a short raid already as it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chiramu

FFXIV is still a baby. The development team has to work to expand the game, at the moment the game is still stretching it's legs, it's not old enough to think of great things. It's still learning to crawl.

---

We all understand that in the early days there is going to be a lot of features that don't feel fleshed out or need iteration and consolidating. This is all a learning curve and in time things will change, improve and feel more fleshed out.

Unfortunately though, that doesn't change the fact that current implementation is lacking. This is not the only thing that has been pointed out that lacks focus and vision, the 2 systems are at odds with each other and don't meld to provide any clear indication of what SE is trying to achieve.

The job system pushes us in one direction while the cross class system tries to pull us in another, most classes find little to no benefit from the abilities which give no gain in diversity for the class, nor do they provide more focus into your current role. On top of that, the balance across classes is terrible where a PLD has almost no gain in using cross class skills and a WAR gets a whole raft of usable abilities that actually do boost your role.

The real issue is the community, not the developers. This happens with nearly every game without static skill sets, eventually the math wizards of the community work out the "best" variation and anyone who does not choose this is considered sub-par. They could tack on varying skills trees and hundreds of abilities, however each of these will need to be balanced so as not to provide a significant advantage to any class. So while there may not be the old "illusion of choice" you will have the right to make the "wrong" one, at which point players would be begging SE for skill tree reset items.

The people demanding more customization are somewhat of a vocal minority, whereas there are others who do not care one whit about it but if they detect a nerf to their class or feel another one is getting better treatment you will hear about it. For example lets say they created a raid boss that a specifically spec'd tank would perform better than another who was not the playerbase would be calling for a nerf or rebalance of the fight. It's just the nature of the community that no one class should have advantage over another, which is silly but then they would have to design many roughly equivalent raids that certain classes could excel in to create a need for the specialization which leads to more development time and balancing.

As a business it's evident they chose the path of least resistance and the one that will lead to the least amount of crying foul on their forums and I certainly do not blame them for it.

I actually miss pre 1.20 FFXIV sometimes. Sure, it was a hot mess, but I was able to do unusual things like cure bomb on my Lancer or tank on my Thaumaturge. Things don't need to be that extreme, but this game has become so sandboxed that it's sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gooner_iBluAirJGR

Stop talking nonsense please. Conjurer as a damage dealer? Because Raging Strikes and Blood for Blood will turn them into
a viable damage dealer? Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.

Lancer as a tank? Skull Sunder and Savage Blade will turn them into a viable tank? Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass.

---

In low-level dungeons, I've main healed on Arcanist and tanked on Pugilist. It worked but it was nowhere near as effective as just sticking to your given role, and that's the point. Right now, it's so much more effective to just stick to your role than to try and branch out into some other role and Jobs only emphasize this by making you even better in your given role. This won't always be the case, though, as Yoshi-P apparently plans to implement a "Hybrid" role into the game at some point; how that eventually works out (if it even comes out in the first place) is still up in the air.

armory was way better in 1.0, now i dont see why they still have it.

You are pigeonholed on your main. End of story. Class uniqueness was a huge thread in beta. Everybody became everyone else just like it was said in beta. Same rotation, same subs. There was so many white knights posting that there are sub abilities that you can switch out. HAHAHAHA. Congrats knights you got what you wanted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chiramu

FFXIV is still a baby. The development team has to work to expand the game, at the moment the game is still stretching it's legs, it's not old enough to think of great things. It's still learning to crawl.

---

Over 3 years and it's still crawling! There was no expansion to the Game since only shrinkage! 3 years we have nothing but a broken mess and no i don't mean by raiding content. I mean everything to the game like 3 rehashed Primal Fights (realy with all of the past FF summons this will make it simple to make quick-uninteresting content) or the Butchered PvP!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atheena

Over 3 years and it's still crawling! There was no expansion to the Game since only shrinkage! 3 years we have nothing but a broken mess and no i don't mean by raiding content. I mean everything to the game like 3 rehashed Primal Fights (realy with all of the past FF summons this will make it simple to make quick-uninteresting content) or the Butchered PvP!

---

Uh huh, ARR is 3 years old! oh wait... they remade the game and its about to be 6 months old... oh noes no expansion six months QQ...

I get it you guys want to complain. Try not to get too delusional. like complaining about a lack of an expansion after less then 6 months.

realistically... you all know their will be changes... like every other mmo.

even there are 1000 skill diversity, but ppl will use follow the best set one.
see DiabloIII for example.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wobi

The real issue is the community, not the developers. This happens with nearly every game without static skill sets, eventually the math wizards of the community work out the "best" variation and anyone who does not choose this is considered sub-par. They could tack on varying skills trees and hundreds of abilities, however each of these will need to be balanced so as not to provide a significant advantage to any class.

---

The problem with your analysis of the situation is that there is no math needed to get the "best" variation, because there simple is no variation to begin with. Nor is my argument in favour of tacking on hundreds of abilities for cross class, my argument is quite plainly that jobs in their current state give our roles focus (something I'm all for) but the addition of cross class skills as a way to diversify simply doesn't exist, nor does it enhance our roles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Atheena

I mean everything to the game like 3 rehashed Primal Fights (realy with all of the past FF summons this will make it simple to make quick-uninteresting content) or the Butchered PvP!

---

You have a thread devoted to moaning about rehashed content already, please don't bring it here.