Let 2 SCH shields stack with diminishing returns

Let the second SCH shield stack at a 50% rate if another SCH in the group already has a shield on. WHM are already the better healer, but have a lot of groups that will not allow 2 SCH seems sad.

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Originally Posted by Squa

Let the second SCH shield stack at a 50% rate if another SCH in the group already has a shield on. WHM are already the better healer, but have a lot of groups that will not allow 2 SCH seems sad.

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WHM isn't a better healer. SCHs can work really well together just as 2 WHMs can but they need more communication. When I am with a SCH I always make sure we have a Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination rotation. Also, if the fight as phases (most fights do) I will work it out that during such and such phase I will do shielding and the other will just spam Physick so we don't waste MP. Because my MP will run out more we then switch for a phase and all I do is Physick and my MP recovers. I would actually say that 2SCHs is better than 2WHMs given that the two know how to work together. It just so happens that it is rare to have 2 of us that can work well. I do prefer having a WHM buddy though. ^^

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Originally Posted by Maku

WHM isn't a better healer. SCHs can work really well together just as 2 WHMs can but they need more communication. When I am with a SCH I always make sure we have a Whispering Dawn and Fey Illumination rotation. Also, if the fight as phases (most fights do) I will work it out that during such and such phase I will do shielding and the other will just spam Physick so we don't waste MP. Because my MP will run out more we then switch for a phase and all I do is Physick and my MP recovers. I would actually say that 2SCHs is better than 2WHMs given that the two know how to work together. It just so happens that it is rare to have 2 of us that can work well. I do prefer having a WHM buddy though. ^^

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SCH has extremely weak AOE healing. THey can heal fine except any fight with large aoe damage. WHM has amazing aoe healing, and also can single target heal great with regen/cure/free cure ii. A SCH helps a WHM do his job well (not the other way around)

There definitely should be some benefit. Its a huge waste for them to not stack at all.
You can get two regen stacks from 2 whm medica 2s.

Do we really need to go through this again? SCH has a large arsenal of damage mitigation on top of easier MP management. WHM does nothing but heal. If WHM didn't have stronger heals, there would be a serious problem.

I'm all for seeing better synergy between SCH/SCH but please refrain from claiming SCH or better than WHM or vice-versa as that does nothing but make both parties mad.

WHM is NOT the better healer. As a matter of fact, wanna talk single target heal?

WHM Cure II average 1600 for 266 MP - you really don't want to spam this both for MP problems and full enmity.
SCH Physick + Embrace macro average 1600 for 133 MP (also with high crit like any SCH should have and because the pet can crit too this can go up as high as 2700+) - easily spammable and half enmity

WHM Benediction theoratical 100% (non-)instant skill on 5 minute timer
SCH Lustrate 25% heal - faster than lustrate 3x spammable within a minute or usable in between to easy your healing spams. If you have a Aetherflow saved up it's even spammable 6X in a row.

2 SCH working together and cycling succor and a roused + Fey Illuminated Whispering Dawn = pretty awesome.

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Originally Posted by Squa

A SCH helps a WHM do his nob well

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Just chiming in only to say I laughed out loud at this highly amusing typo. :eek:

SCH def takes alot of work especially when coordinating with another SCH.

In my eyes if you let SCH shields stack, WHMs needs a buff.
At end games yes WHMs hit hard and that is something i'm jealous of, but seriously the amount of heals they can get out at a time is hard on them in comparison to SCH where we can throw rouse up and spam embrace and lustrate while running, just saying.

If Sch gets a buff like this, WHM def needs some.

I wonder why ppl keep complaining about WHM being better than SCH (or vice versa).

I think, the healing classes are quite well balanced and synergize each other well.
Yes, of course in some situations one class has the upper hand in others not, but I'd not want to miss a WHM buddy in coil, while I'm healing with my SCH.

I rather put the blame on a general lack of or misunderstanding of the Scholar class. There's still people who expect us to have some kind of cure III, or (ugh) benediction/unlimited lustrates.

On the other hand, I can see why someone would want two SCH's adlo shield to stack. I recall a very very happy tank in Titan HM with 6 regen stacks. 3 x Medica II, 3 x Regen. And yeah, I know, it's Titan HM. Still.

(To bash myself, I could also say that it's OP of us to be given the ability to sit and twiddle our fingers because Eos could practically solo heal AK so that we can function as 5th DPS. This is especially true in the low level roulette.)

Edit: I'm optimistic. Want to give it some time to see how it all pans out. I'm still a newbie anyhow.

I think it would be nice for |SCHs to have stacked shields, however this must only apply to Succor at least for the time being, two SCHs with stacked crit shields would be stupid.

It would be nice for WHMS to get a CD which allows them to temporarily cast on the go, or give regen a boost.

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Originally Posted by Squa

SCH has extremely weak AOE healing. THey can heal fine except any fight with large aoe damage. WHM has amazing aoe healing, and also can single target heal great with regen/cure/free cure ii. A SCH helps a WHM do his nob well (not the other way around)

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Again, I don't think SCH AoE is weak at all IF stacked with another SCH. Yes a single SCHs AoE isn't that great but I have done Titan EX (arguably the most AoE Healing Intensive fight we have currently) with 2 SCHs and if you work out rotations like I mentioned in my first post we do just fine if not better than WHMs cause we don't need Ballads.

A Sch only saving grace is its ability stay active with little management. The whm has to damn near micro manage its rotation and heal himself to stay in the game. ill take the extremes as an example titan dislikes healers that can cast one heal on the party and erase all his 2 hour damage. while he could care less about soil, succ prior as everyone is still half dead. without soil succ the group takes more damage but it can be erased easily with an empowered cure 3. ifrit whm pops in med2 and party is Is good for a while. a whm with a bard and ballad can solo heal extremes. it is very difficult for a sch to do the same. HELL, my sch is i90 and whm is i80 and if im soloing healing hards and extremes im going with whm.

Just a bad idea

if scholar shields stacked it would essentially be the death of whm in 8 mans, at least in progression and end game. guaranteed 1300 "relatively" spammable hp shield or double the chance (2x the adlo's thrown) at a big 2.6-3k or more hp shield. dual sch will also finally have caught up to whm in spammable aoe.

Scholars already have hidden synergy in their lustrates as well, 2x lustrate at the same time on a low hp tank is +50% hp (plus embraces thrown 70% or so, rarely does a tank dip below 20 or 30% anyway), which is pretty huge and enough to mitigate most disasters. Benediction thrown at the same time as a lustrate is just wasted though.

I guess its just human nature to ask for more but seriously stop! We are going to have a situation similar to 2.0 warriors and paladins if anything like this goes through.

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Originally Posted by Volsung

There definitely should be some benefit. Its a huge waste for them to not stack at all.
You can get two regen stacks from 2 whm medica 2s.

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is this true? never played whm at 50, but if regen stacks with other regen, then it doenst make sense for 2 shields to not stack

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Originally Posted by chumsy

is this true? never played whm at 50, but if regen stacks with other regen, then it doenst make sense for 2 shields to not stack

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They definitely do not stack. If you cast a spell that grants the Galvanize effect (i.e. the shield) on someone who already has a Galvanize effect, then one of two things will happen:

1. If your new Galvanize effect is larger than the current remaining Galvanize effect, then the old one is overwritten and they receive the full effect of your new one. You can see this by noting that both before and after your cast there is only one green Galvanize icon on the target.
2. If the current remaining Galvanize effect is larger than your new Galvanize effect, then you get a flying text message on your target stating, "Your Galvanize has no effect!"

As for Regen, it's easy to tell they stack, because you can see multiple icons on the target. One for each regen effect on them. Notably, Regen and Medica II also stack both with themselves and eachother. So if you have 3 WHM in the party you can have 3 regens and 3 Medica II regens running on a single target at the same time.

SCH do just fine in AOE situations you just have to heal proactively. Yes A SCH has a weak AOE if he tries to imitate a WHM and just spam Succor like a fool.

But if you look at a case like Titan's Tumults. A SCH can precast Galvanize, lay down Soil, pop Whispering dawn then follow up with one more Succor. Then follow up with Eye for an Eye + Virus + soil with the Galvanize precast and Succor for the next round of tumults.

This is what I do when I solo-Heal Titan HM and I do all the healing for tumults on Titan Ex (while other healer only focus tanks).

Yes, it requires you to be more knowlegdable about the fight, but that's what a SCH is: a Strategist. WHM are more of the "Oh, s**t" healers

There are 0 fights which double sch can't heal atm.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

They definitely do not stack. If you cast a spell that grants the Galvanize effect (i.e. the shield) on someone who already has a Galvanize effect, then one of two things will happen:.

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I already know shields dont stack, im a sch, but with whm stacking regens, that i didnt know. extremely powerful , essentially having 2-3 regens on a tank means you can forget about even healing them. I doubt many ppl have even healed as a sch end game. Ive done titan ext and it aint easy, having to hit 3-4 different keys/making sure fairy is in good position for tumult, whm just hit one cure III/medica. imagine your pet dying mid battle, you lose essentially a huge amount of healing or lots of time trying to resummon, if swift cast is on CD.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

There are 0 fights which double sch can't heal atm.

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no one said it was impossible, but the difficulty is at least 2-3 times harder. you either have to be super geared, or dps/tank have to be perfect dodgers.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

no one said it was impossible, but the difficulty is at least 2-3 times harder. you either have to be super geared, or dps/tank have to be perfect dodgers.

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Why perfect dodgers? Whm does not spot heal better then sch , in fact whm is worse at heal sniping then sch is. Since sch can heal others with fairy while casting and can lustrate.

Due to how the game is designed. When aoe damage happens. You generally get a break before next damage happens. The aoe damage is also predictable.

Honestly I wouldn't even care if they let shields stack. I would just play double sch and then every fight would become a joke , By premigitating the predictable aoe with 1k hp succor shields stacked and negating single target with 1600-5k hp shields.

If SE has any clue when it comes to balancing. They would not buff SCH shields by letting them stack.
If they are going to buff sch aoe healing(which should come with a whm buff) then they should add an aoe heal effect to sacred soil. Making sch choose between lustrate and aoe healing.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

Why perfect dodgers? Whm does not spot heal better then sch , in fact whm is worse at heal sniping then sch is. Since sch can heal others with fairy while casting and can lustrate.

Due to how the game is designed. When aoe damage happens. You generally get a break before next damage happens. The aoe damage is also predictable.

Honestly I wouldn't even care if they let shields stack. Then I would just play double sch and then we'd just make every fight a joke lol by premigitating the predictable aoe and single target damage.

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so whm can cast two medica and receive full benefit, while 2 succor casts receive only one? thats fair? good thing you aint president

When two whm are using medica they are not ignoring the mechanic. People have to position, the whm have to be in range of everyone. The whm have to react.

If two sch put up crazy shields they will trivialize mechanics. Either by making them non lethal or negating the debuff effects. Preemptive healing will leave the sch free to do other stuff.

Preemptive healing is alot stronger then reactive healing as should by any mmo. It makes fights easier , especially new ones.

If SE start buffing premigitation . Then most of deaths would then become due to thing like landslide. No more dying due to lack of heals since the shield would be a safety net. SE nerfed virus due to it making tank healing much easier. So i don't think their goal is to add mechanics that make fights easier to heal.

Stoneskin doesn't stack either btw. Its an adloquium without the heal.
It is common for games to not let same job shields stack. E.g wow doesn't let two priest use power word shield on the same target. But i think they let paladin shield and priest shield stack.

A consequence of letting shields stack is people surviving things they shouldn't like. Twintania 3 people per fireball, with 2 of them being fairies. Double succor may let people survive weights of the land that should of killed them. Whm stronger healing is useless if a mechanic does more damage then the targets hp.

Though not required except for maybe the casuals. If you want to campaign for sch aoe healing it should be more reactive healing. Like succor 200 potency heal and 150 shield or like i said earlier . Put an aoe effect on sacred soil. Either when activated or when standing in its circle. Whm has sacred prism in pvp that is a stronger sacred soil but with a hot effect for those standing inside.

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Originally Posted by sharazisspecial

When two whm are using medica they are not ignoring the mechanic. People have to position, the whm have to be in range of everyone. The whm have to react.

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Im fine if they dont stack 100%, hence why the op said diminishing returns. also the fact groups arent accepting double sch is self explanatory that it is inferior to double whms. All im saying is in order to balance the healing class role so that if no healer whm was available sch/sch could still be viable without extra difficulty.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

Im fine if they dont stack 100%, hence why the op said diminishing returns. also the fact groups arent accepting double sch is self explanatory that it is inferior to double whms. All im saying is in order to balance the healing class role so that if no healer whm was available sch/sch could still be viable without extra difficulty.

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Double whm is inferior to Double sch for tank damage heavy fights . Like turn 1,4 and 5. Turn 5 no sch sounds like a complete nightmare actually.

Anyway SE hate job stacking blm,brd and paladin. So maybe they hate healer stacking too.

Whm can't stack stoneskin either, which is a shield effect. Sch can stack their hot like whm can.

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Originally Posted by YuiSasaki

I wonder why ppl keep complaining about WHM being better than SCH (or vice versa).

I think, the healing classes are quite well balanced and synergize each other well.
Yes, of course in some situations one class has the upper hand in others not, but I'd not want to miss a WHM buddy in coil, while I'm healing with my SCH.

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Balanced currently as SCH AoE sucks and that's pretty much the only thing WHM has on SCH. The moment the unavoidable AoE damage stops, WHMs are getting benched.

That being said, the idea that there won't be unavoidable AoE damage is laughable. I could SE buffing SCH's AoE without realizing they're killing the only niche WHM has though.

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Originally Posted by chumsy

Im fine if they dont stack 100%, hence why the op said diminishing returns. also the fact groups arent accepting double sch is self explanatory that it is inferior to double whms. All im saying is in order to balance the healing class role so that if no healer whm was available sch/sch could still be viable without extra difficulty.

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Turn 5 with no SCH sounds like hell in a handbasket. Turn 5 without WHM is not only feasible, it's arguably better than SCH/WHM due to more lustrates after DS, the ability to alternate roused WDs and Sacred Soils for fireballs, having your fairy still throw out heals while moving on twisters (again, with lustrates) or stunned by dreads, and basically never having to use MP song unless folks are standing in divebombs or running into the edge of the arena twice a minute. That is literally the only fight I would require at least one of either class, and the requirement wouldn't be WHM, so yeah, I agree, they should balance the healing class role. Please inform me what buffs you wish to provide WHM so that if no healer SCH is available WHM/WHM could still be viable without extra difficulty.

Seriously, this is an MMO. You have to communicate, and is saying "I'll WD the first fireball" that much more complex or difficult or annoying than saying "I'll MT," or "I'll be the LB guy," or "I'll take the raid you get tank," or any of the other things we see in chat in DF parties or premades or even static groups?

And finally: A) I've personally seen PFs and shouts which call for double SCH, so there exist groups which not only accept them but seek them out. Maybe not many, but they exist. B) even if they didn't accept double SCH, that doesn't mean they'd accept double WHM. I've never seen a group hunt out double WHM, though in fairness that might just mean I've never seen them, not that they don't exist. These two are nitpicky logic points, but come on. I did my arcanist quests, and logic is supposed to be what you DO. =P

I need to make this clear, SCHs cannot have an AOE heal better than WHMs.
Im a sch and even I disagree with that, we dps better we buff better we spot heal better, there is no way we can have another thing to add to the list, especially considering WHMs are the original healers lol. Give SS a Hot effect, but reduce aggro on medica 2 ! Provide some sort of mana regen skill or a skill which allows casting while moving whms need abheavy buff if schs get anything else.

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Originally Posted by Sanguisio

I need to make this clear, SCHs cannot have an AOE heal better than WHMs.
Im a sch and even I disagree with that, we dps better we buff better we spot heal better, there is no way we can have another thing to add to the list, especially considering WHMs are the original healers lol. Give SS a Hot effect, but reduce aggro on medica 2 ! Provide some sort of mana regen skill or a skill which allows casting while moving whms need abheavy buff if schs get anything else.

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I agree with you, SCH dont need a better AE heal; especially not a better one than WHMs have.
To be honest I still hope, that SCH receives some nurfs concerning aggro and mana management. I also have a WHM, and healing as a WHM is way more fun, considering that you need to watch your MP & Aggro.

Exactly, I think give SCHs trait buffs from CNJ.
Reduce aggro and increase mana regen for WHMS, free cure and overcure allow insta casts on procs, and potentially when they do eventually raise cap, introduce some elemental specific shields.

I don't see what's wrong with scholar having lower AoE healing since they can cast single targets heals way faster due to fairies.
If you have 2 scholars in an 8 men party, in two GCD, you can get: 1 AoE heal with shield + one ST heal + 2 fairy heals, then 2 ST heals + 2 fairy heals, which makes 1 AoE and 7 ST heals.
You could also Succor + Whispering Dawn and still get 6 ST heals.

Succor, Aldo, Physick and Embrace are all more potent that Medica II raw effect (Medica will beat it over time and will probably overheal unless you party stands in fire fields or w/e).

It seems to me the problem isn't double scholars, but the fact that Whm would probably have an easier time if he had to solo heal in AoE situations (if the scholar is dead for example).

Before they made the fairies macro-able, and fixed the bug that didn't let you use fairy abilities while you were casting, I could see an argument for this. But now my SCH always either heals one target for the same as a WHM Cure II, or heals two different people at once, for basically every heal.

I don't think SCH needs any more buffs, otherwise it'll be OP and get nerfed.

Exactly, I think that WHMs should have an aggro reduction, there is no way they can have two limiting factors on healing.