Clarification on DET

When it says HP from healing spells, does it specifically mean the caster's potency, HP received (i.e. the person being healed's DET raises it) or both?

Mouse over Healing Magic Potency.
Mouse over Determination.
What does Healing Magic Potency do? That's the answer.

Only the caster's potency.

Cast a heal on a naked character. Then on a character in full i90. You'll heal for the same amount.

So stacking DET on a Tank won't increase how much you're healed for then? That's what I wanna know.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

So stacking DET on a Tank won't increase how much you're healed for then? That's what I wanna know.

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Correct.
/10char

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

So stacking DET on a Tank won't increase how much you're healed for then? That's what I wanna know.

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Correct. As far as a tank goes it will only increase the damage output you do. It can increase self healing EX: casting cure on yourself with more DET would heal you for more but the amount would be minuscule as you are not a healer.

It would not directly affect healing done by Blood Bath or Inner Beast for example as the healed amount is based off the damage dealt. Which means DET indirectly affects the self healing by increasing your damage output.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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no, it also affects how much the healer's cure hits you for. it affects the output of the action, the healer's determination is what affects how much your healed for, not the target's.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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The first part may be technically correct, but guess what the biggest factor is in a healer's heals?... Magic Damage.

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Originally Posted by Hiro_Protagonist

The first part may be technically correct, but guess what the biggest factor is in a healer's heals?... Magic Damage.

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Well the thing with that is that magic effectiveness is split into two stats: INT and MND, with PIE controlling Mana quantity. INT controls magic damage, MND controls healing. That's why, if you try to use a SMN as a healer or a SCH as a DPS, it won't be nearly as effective as vice-versa, because SMN has High INT/Low MND while SCH has High MND/Low INT. DET is paired with STR and INT, with MND not even factoring into the equation.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET is paired with STR and INT, with MND not even factoring into the equation.

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Pretty sure it does. Determination is like poor-man strength/intelligence/mind so it's not as weighted but it still affects outgoing heals for WHM/SCH.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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May want to reread the tooltip there, it definitely states it affects healing as well as both physical and magical damage.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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This is why we have bad players. Bad information.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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DET: Affects the amount of damage dealt by both physical and magical attacks, as well as the amount of HP restored by healing spells. Auto-attack potency is also affected. <-- Tooltip for DET.

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Originally Posted by HakuroDK

DET, short for Determination, directly influences both Physical and Magical damage and has nothing to do with healing.

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As others have pointed out, you are incorrect in this. Determination is very important for healers. It directly affects the potency of their heals.

Thanks for clearing that up for me, I haven't the means to really test it out extensively myself (or rather, just not sure how to go about it) and was wondering if stacking DET on my PLD would help reduce damage taken.

This being said, I am wondering if Determination would have been the better stats for all DPS players.

It looks to me as Skill Speed and Crit Rate > Determination.

Skill Speed also speeds up your hit rate which boosts your damage rapidly alongside with Crit Rate for higher chance of critical hit as speed increases.

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Originally Posted by SilverRhythm

This being said, I am wondering if Determination would have been the better stats for all DPS players.

It looks to me as Skill Speed and Crit Rate > Determination.

Skill Speed also speeds up your hit rate which boosts your damage rapidly alongside with Crit Rate for higher chance of critical hit as speed increases.

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The only problem here being that both skill speed and spell speed are very lackluster stats currently. The amount needed to see any kind of noticeable difference is so high as to make it a moot stat, given that we can't even stack it that high currently you are much better off sticking to crit and det as priority stats for almost every class.

Crit is only as good as your main stat and DET allow, so in most cases DET > Crit. There comes a breakpoint when you have enough main stat + DET that point for point Crit gives more average damage than DET, but that is high enough it is not reasonable to meet in game currently.

Exceptions to this are if Crits are a significant mechanic in your job's play style. I.e. Bard's damage is highly dependent on Crit procs on their DoTs to reset Bloodletter recast, so crit is more important to them. Scholars Adloquium crits are amazingly powerful, the value earned from a Crit far outweighing any benefit DET could have added to their heals.

Other classes, like Summoner which has Crit procs it is not more useful because the proc is less effective than just stacking DET, so it is better to just stack DET.

Spell speed and skill speed don't provide enough of a return for any job, with the possible exception of Monk getting enough to reach a breakpoint for optimal rotations and Black Mage because their casts are so long.

Edit: Thought I'd add a bit of math (no I didn't figure out the formulas myself) to illustrate this better.

These are the currently accepted formulas for our best estimate of the damage calculation and crit rate. Note it is just an estimate based on best fit analysis of thousands of data points, and has held up to scrutiny. Also of note, since damage is random within a range this just shows the average damage not your best or worst possible. I took them from this source, which is a more in depth explanation of what follows and is itself not the original source.

Damage = (WD*.2714745 + INT*.1006032 + (DTR-202)*.0241327 + WD*INT*.0036167 + WD*(DTR-202)*.0010800 - 1) * (Potency/100)
Crit Rate = 0.0697 * CRT – 18.437

Use those results to calculate your effective average damage that accounts for average critical hits using this:

Average Damage = Damage + (Damage * .5) * (Crit Rate / 100)

By calculating your current average damage and comparing it with average damage for when you increase your DET or your Crit you can see which is more effective.

E.g. If I have a weapon with 60 weapon damage, 450 STR, 250 DET, and 350 Crit and I'm deciding between a piece with 8 DET or 11 Crit with all other stats the same then my numbers are as follows:
Current Average Damage - 1.6732 damage per point of potency.
+8 DET Average Damage - 1.6805 damage per point of potency
+11 Crit Average Damage - 1.6794 damage per point of potency

I.e. In this case, with this gear I would be better off with the 8 DET instead of the 11 Crit all things else being equal.

Well I do hope that SE can at least show us more tooltips on our stats and accurate percentage boost for every Skill Speed, Crit Rate and Det points we boosted.

Regarding to Skill Speed, I agree that you need a very high amount of stats for this to actually show its difference and uses. When I run above 450 skill speed, I can clearly see the damage I am dealing and the speed my TP gets drained real fast.

Regarding to Crit Rate, I agree that you also need this to be particularly high to actually give a reasonable critical hit frequency. Example when I run at 415 crit rate, the critical hit landing is just too few, compared to when I ran it above 470 and I see lots of my hits getting critical hits.

Regarding to Determination, since Crit Rate and Skill Speed just require so much boost just to show its effect, that narrows down to upgrading Determination gives a boost to your raw damage. However, I tested on a few level 49 mob just to see the difference of determination, I realized that there is still a fluctuation to the damage you deal in every hit but overall around 9 determination of stats can give you a difference in every hit.

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Originally Posted by SilverRhythm

Well I do hope that SE can at least show us more tooltips on our stats and accurate percentage boost for every Skill Speed, Crit Rate and Det points we boosted.

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Unfortunately they already stated that they will not be doing this. It was said that we just have to assume that more of a stat like crit = higher percentage rate.

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Originally Posted by Oura

Unfortunately they already stated that they will not be doing this. It was said that we just have to assume that more of a stat like crit = higher percentage rate.

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I don't get the need of why being so secretive about in this. Many games are willing to at least show you the tooltip of "Crit rate boost is XXX%" at least. If they are so afraid other games are going to copy their way of calculation is much more of a joke.

But thanks to Mhaeric for his calculation, it makes a good logical calculation out of it.

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Originally Posted by SilverRhythm

I don't get the need of why being so secretive about in this. Many games are willing to at least show you the tooltip of "Crit rate boost is XXX%" at least. If they are so afraid other games are going to copy their way of calculation is much more of a joke.

But thanks to Mhaeric for his calculation, it makes a good logical calculation out of it.

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Not mine (follow the link in my link to find the original), but you're welcome! :)

There is so much misinformation in this thread. ; ;

FOR THE RECORD: determination is a "catch-all" stat that improves physical, magical, ranged, and melee damage as well as healing. It does NOT improve the amount you get healed for, only the amount that you output. Source: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/methodology/

STOP SPREADING MISINFORMATION THAT YOU HEARD FROM SOME RANDOM FC MEMBER. GET THE FACTS BEFORE YOU LOOK DUMB.

Wow could you be any more wrong if you tried?

Skill Speed is generally trash I agree. Spell Speed is not. It's pretty much *the* stat to max out on BLM because BLM effectively has unlimited MP, and their damage output is directly tied to how fast they can burn their MP and swap between Astral Fire & Umbral Ice. Oh and skill speed only affects weaponskills, not auto-attacks so right there it loses ground to accuracy, det and crit.

I don't buy the argument of DET being better than Crit either. Not only does Crit generally come in higher values/cap higher, but its impact on your damage is far more significant - I currently have 512 crit on my DRG (iLv78 and I'm still missing several key pieces. I've also got 468 Accuracy and I'm pretty sure I'll be able to hit the magic 480 with the build I want to use) and ever since I broke past the 500 mark I've noticed a significant increase. I don't have a parser to record specific test data which is unfortunate, but just going from my own personal experiences I'd estimate my crit rate to be around the 30% mark give or take 5%. Those damage spikes really add up, particularly with all my cooldowns active. DET is definitely a worthwile stat as it makes your average damage much better in increases your max damage output, but I still prefer crit for 2 reasons:

1) I can potentially get much more out of my abilities with it than I would with DET (higher risk but much higher returns) including on my auto attacks which regularly crit for around 250 damage.

2) Critical hits contribute to the Limit Break gauge, and that helps out everyone.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

Spell Speed is not. It's pretty much *the* stat to max out on BLM because BLM effectively has unlimited MP, and their damage output is directly tied to how fast they can burn their MP and swap between Astral Fire & Umbral Ice.

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Spell speed doesn't take you past the GCD, and most of the spells you cast will be at or under the GCD without any spell speed.

Normal rotation for single target:
Blizz3 - 3.5
Thunder
Fire3 - 3.5, but cut in half from UI3
Fire spam
repeat with Bilzz3 - still 3.5, but cut in half from being under AF3
Fire3/Thunder3 tossed in when you get an instant/free

So 1 spell at the start benefits from spell speed.


Normal AoE rotation:
Fire3 - 3.5
Fire2 spam
Swiftcast Flare
Convert
Fire2
Flare - 4.0
Transpose
Blizz3 or 2xBlizz2

Some benefit in there, but nothing that is huge. 10% off your cast time might get you 2-3% off your cycle time.

What are you talking about?

Spell Speed reduces cast time AND recast time, which means it does put you under the GCD. Stop spreading misinformation.

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Originally Posted by StouterTaru

Spell speed doesn't take you past the GCD, and most of the spells you cast will be at or under the GCD without any spell speed.

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Spell Speed (and Skill Speed for that matter) does lower the GCD. As a BLM, I am at a 2.3 GCD. Not only do my spells cast faster, but the recast time is shorter. At my current spell speed, all my spells have a 8% speed increase. That is pretty big.

The reason Skill Speed is not as good is TP is a limited pool. So increasing the speed of attacks just depletes the pool faster. BLM have unlimited mana, which is why spell spd is so important to them.

^ it's not just that it bleeds your TP faster (without actually increasing the damage of your attacks, unlike DET & CRIT do) but it has absolutely no impact on anything else; Spell Speed at least affects 2 attributes, Skill only does 1 since all WS are instant (barring animation times that is).

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Originally Posted by NefGP

Wow could you be any more wrong if you tried?

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All of them have their uses, though Skill Speed is terribly... niche. It's best to consider the relative value of things:

Determination (DTR): Decreasing relative returns with main damage stat (STR/DEX/INT), decreasing relative returns with itself. Affects all hits, especially valuable for autoattacks, no increase in resource drain. Focus stat for MNK, WHM,
Critical Hit Rate (CHR): Decreasing relative returns with itself, decreasing relative returns with all crit boosts (which are all flat bonuses). Effects are random, increases LB gain, no increase in resource drain. Special value for certain abilities (e.g. Adloquium with it's doubled shield potency on crit).
Skill/Spell Speed (SSPD): Increasing relative returns with self, other SSPD buffs. Does not affect DoTs. Does not affect autoattacks. Increases resource drain. Can meet certain breakpoints. Increases attack-rate-based resource gain (only Wrath stacks at this time).

DTR is a focus stat for jobs built around autoattacks (MNK) and also has high value to jobs with low damage stats (PLD). CHR is good for jobs with high damage stats already (DRG) or those with special crit bonuses (SCH, BRD). Spell Speed is good for BLM mainly due to having infinite MP and low DoT portion. Skill Speed is good for meeting breakpoints to get off an extra hit under an effect, which is pretty much just MRD/WAR and nobody else.