Should Casters Prioritize Auto Attacks?

Whenever it is safe to do so, should a caster run into melee range to execute an auto attack?

If it's safe to be in melee range, aren't you maximizing your damage as a caster by doing both your spells and auto attacks?

Yes, you should. Don't stop casting to auto-attack, get in melee range, right click, go about your business. Every ~5-6 actions you will sneak an auto-attack in.

Seriously? Running up and hitting it with my book will add so much damage that it's worth doing?

Seems kinda pointless to me when strength isn't high in points either.

Then there's the downtime from needing to run in.

I don't see how auto-attacks should be the top priority when they are the weakest form of damage potential.

Free damage is free damage. If it's safe, why wouldn't you? Yeah, hitting something with your book 3-4 times a minute will give you an extra ~200+ damage, so why not?

I'm not saying they are 'top priority', obviously your typical spells are more important, but you're essentially getting free damage for the simple action of positioning yourself closer. In most fights, with sprint, you're going to take less than 2 seconds at absolute most, positioning in melee range, much less depending on the fight.

And some classes (SMN) have higher base strength than other classes, so how worthwhile it is depends on your class. But, in the end, it is free damage for the minor issues of running into melee range once.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

Free damage is free damage. If it's safe, why wouldn't you? Yeah, hitting something with your book 3-4 times a minute will give you an extra ~200+ damage, so why not?

I'm not saying they are 'top priority', obviously your typical spells are more important, but you're essentially getting free damage for the simple action of positioning yourself closer. In most fights, with sprint, you're going to take less than 2 seconds at absolute most, positioning in melee range, much less depending on the fight.

And some classes (SMN) have higher base strength than other classes, so how worthwhile it is depends on your class. But, in the end, it is free damage for the minor issues of running into melee range once.

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Depends how much damage you can do in the 2 seconds it takes to reach your opponent. If you lose 1000 damage from 1 GCD and only do an extra 200 damage from auto-attacks, you'll lose DPS. Not to mention you may have to move more at melee range, which is a DPS loss for someone like a BLM or anyone using cast-time spells.

I wouldn't think too much of it. The only time you should care about auto attack is if you're in Titan HM and feel like building LB on his first phase. The damage loss from moving will most likely never be made up by auto attack damage, unless you lose no damage from moving, in which case do it if you really want.

At the end of the day, however, 200 damage in a 1 minute time frame is negligible at best. You won't notice the damage, nor will it help any situation. The only time it would make a difference is if every single person in the group did the same thing, account for maybe 800 extra damage per minute but even then, still negligible.

It is more of a benefit on longer fights (like Twintania) where you stay in melee range for multiple minutes at a time, and you more or less are in melee range a lot of the time regardless. Other examples are Ex Titan and Ex Ifrit.

Obviously you need to keep it in perspective, but if you are going to be in/near melee range anyways, there is no reason not to.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

It is more of a benefit on longer fights (like Twintania) where you stay in melee range for multiple minutes at a time, and you more or less are in melee range a lot of the time regardless. Other examples are Ex Titan and Ex Ifrit.

Obviously you need to keep it in perspective, but if you are going to be in/near melee range anyways, there is no reason not to.

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Morale of the story: Its situational in the extreme and shouldn't be given as general advise.

A fight like Twin makes sense. But basically any other fight that doesn't require melee range its probably a waste unless you can stand there hitting it long enough to make up for 1-2 lost GCD's.

Why would it take you 1-2 GCDs to get into melee range of something? I mean, obviously this isn't going to be something you do in every single fight, but there is damage to be had when someone judges a situation where it is an extremely minimal sacrifice of time to get into and be able to stay in melee range.

Damage is damage, and if it is free for the taking, why wouldn't you take it? Like everything else in the game, you need to be able to judge when it is wise to do or not do any given thing, in terms of maintaining DPS. If you can do it, and it is not a sacrifice to do it, you should do it. I'm not advocating anything else. But, that was the OP's question.. if you can, should you? And the answer is yes.

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Originally Posted by SirGazuntai

Depends how much damage you can do in the 2 seconds it takes to reach your opponent. If you lose 1000 damage from 1 GCD and only do an extra 200 damage from auto-attacks, you'll lose DPS. Not to mention you may have to move more at melee range, which is a DPS loss for someone like a BLM or anyone using cast-time spells.

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You don't lose any damage because you use ruin 2 or bio to move in as a summoner, or procs as a BLM.

For extreme primals, people tend to stack behind titan and ifrit anyway so you'll get your auto attacks there easily. On garuda there's no reason not to simply position yourself right behind her on the non add phases to get your auto attacks.

On caduceus you can stand on his flank at no cost.

ADS repelling cannon and other mechanics will force you to move in and out too much so you'll probably lose dps for trying to melee, plus if you're doing rot then you shouldn't be near melee anyway. If doing enrage then... yeah lol.

Turn 4 can stand behind dreadnaughts np. Anything else not worth running around.

Twintania you get to sit on her for a good part of the early fight so you get your free attacks in. Once twister starts though you have no business being melee.

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Originally Posted by Seobit

You don't lose any damage because you use ruin 2 or bio to move in as a summoner, or procs as a BLM.

For extreme primals, people tend to stack behind titan and ifrit anyway so you'll get your auto attacks there easily. On garuda there's no reason not to simply position yourself right behind her on the non add phases to get your auto attacks.

On caduceus you can stand on his flank at no cost.

ADS repelling cannon and other mechanics will force you to move in and out too much so you'll probably lose dps for trying to melee, plus if you're doing rot then you shouldn't be near melee anyway. If doing enrage then... yeah lol.

Turn 4 can stand behind dreadnaughts np. Anything else not worth running around.

Twintania you get to sit on her for a good part of the early fight so you get your free attacks in. Once twister starts though you have no business being melee.

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As a SMN it makes sense. They have good mobility and enough instant attacks to allow for more auto attacks.

A BLM should only do it if they're already in melee because of a fight mechanic. Any movement is a dps loss and you cannot control your procs unless you hold it which is even more of a dps loss.
BLM str is also very low. My SMN is slightly lesser gear has 179 strength compared to my BLM's 88.
Free damage is free and all but if you filled in with scathe when you didn't have to, you probably lost more damage than your auto's would do in that whole fight.

For example, cad might be fairly safe to stand in melee as a BLM but you would have to be very lucky to be one sidestep away from a glowing platform (like you could be at range). Instead, you would have to fill in with scathe.

Plus, this would would only be viable on farm content or ones you stand in melee regardless. For fights where you do stand there, sure - right click the boss and get your damage. Otherwise, don't bother.
For anything you're progressing in, then you probably can't expect complete stability. And that's what's required for a BLM to justify being in melee and gaining dps.

Someone should Parse the mage AA damage. Maybe if it's like 2k a minute it might be worh it.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Someone should Parse the mage AA damage. Maybe if it's like 2k a minute it might be worh it.

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Actually came here to ask what people here thought about mage AA as the Gamefaqs topic got pretty heated.

The ruin/2 and psycicks are there to illustrate how AA damage changes with cast times. DPS is from a minutes worth of hits.

SMN:
Titan Book: 49.28 AA Damage/3.36 delay
452 INT/ 182 STR/ 295 det
AA hits for 70~, 100 on Crit
Ruin hits for 170~, 270~ on Crit
AA only: 24 dps(18~ hits)
Ruin only: 80 dps (23~ hits)
Ruin+AA: 84 dps(23~ ruin, 6~ AA)(2.44 cast)
Psycick spam + AA: 11 dps (8~ AA)(1.95 cast)
Ruin 2+AA: 104(!) dps (23~ ruin, 18~ AA)(instant)

Overall if you spam a minute full of ruin 2 your auto attacks can add up to 1.4k worth of damage. While you'll never get that full amount due to reapplication of dots I'm sure you've all had those times where 1k in damage more would have meant victory.

this is the first time i heard caster should do auto attack XD
really? i think i will try it, healing while hitting boss with my staff rather than stone it
dont want ppl to think i'm crazy or something

oops this is dps roles forum >.< should read it first but really? :D

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Someone should Parse the mage AA damage. Maybe if it's like 2k a minute it might be worh it.

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I highly doubt it's anywhere near that for a blm; I once took down a level <5 mob as 50 blm with just melee, it took about 4 swings.

I run in for 2 reasons:

1. Blizzard to stun/blind w/e

2. Miasma 2

SMN can easily afford to get in to auto attack. My biggest problem is forgetting to right click the boss when I do think about it. But for us the damage is basically another DoT proc but on a longer timer

I know there are widely different variables at play, but as a DRG my auto attack is my single highest dps ability, contributing about 30% of my over all damage iirc.

i don't have this problem

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

i don't have this problem

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Do you give lessons?

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Plus, this would would only be viable on farm content or ones you stand in melee regardless. For fights where you do stand there, sure - right click the boss and get your damage. Otherwise, don't bother.
For anything you're progressing in, then you probably can't expect complete stability. And that's what's required for a BLM to justify being in melee and gaining dps.

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Are you clueless?



Ruin 2+AA: 104(!) dps (23~ ruin, 18~ AA)(instant)

You do realize how much damage this is right? That even with full cast casting your dots and shadow flare in there(no quickcast on any) that this would still give you 1080 damage over the course of just 1 minute. That is the equivalent of around 4-6 ruins or 10-15 seconds, and that is just if its only one person doing it. I don't know what you're thinking but most of the mini enrage timers are at least a min and there are tons of times where 1000 extra damage would have made or broke the fight.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Are you clueless?



Ruin 2+AA: 104(!) dps (23~ ruin, 18~ AA)(instant)

You do realize how much damage this is right? That even with full cast casting your dots and shadow flare in there(no quickcast on any) that this would still give you 1080 damage over the course of just 1 minute. That is the equivalent of around 4-6 ruins or 10-15 seconds, and that is just if its only one person doing it. I don't know what you're thinking but most of the mini enrage timers are at least a min and there are tons of times where 1000 extra damage would have made or broke the fight.

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Um, did you really just ignore that I was specifically talking about Black Mage or do you not know what BLM means (you know, the thing I was talking about in that quote)?
Maybe you skimmed my post and missed my opening lines

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

As a SMN it makes sense. They have good mobility and enough instant attacks to allow for more auto attacks.

A BLM should only do it if they're already in melee because of a fight mechanic. Any movement is a dps loss and you cannot control your procs unless you hold it which is even more of a dps loss.
BLM str is also very low. My SMN is slightly lesser gear has 179 strength compared to my BLM's 88.

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Saying that it's fine for SMN is how I even started that post. And, you're arguing about how viable it is for a SMN for which I already agreed to?

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I don't know what you're thinking but most of the mini enrage timers are at least a min.

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Maybe a few more second to tread the post you're replying to and you'll see my thinking.
Then get back when you want to talk about blm mechanics.

I'm a full i90 with Allagan Scepter BLM. My AA does about 11 DPS if there are absolutely no interrupts, and much, much less if I'm actually casting spells - I peg it at slightly less than 1 out of 2 spells I get an AA off, including Swiftcast and Firestarter procs. Thus, about 5 DPS increased. Since Scathe is a hilariously bad DPS loss and has no place in the rotation outside of its utility for moving and instant damage, there's not much justification there.

It's hard to see the benefits of AAs for BLM in everyday use. Even one GCD lost due to movement you wouldn't have been forced to do negates anywhere from a bit more than a minute of AAs up to three minutes+ depending on if you hit a crit or not. A lot of enemies have tail swipes which would force a move, as well as the negative of sharing a spot with melee, which increases your chance of having an AoE target you compared to having free reign over the field to spread out. Not to mention, it would take a proc or two to get in range without losing GCD time.

However, it is good advice even for BLMs in certain times. It can certainly have its benefits if you care to move after a Firestarter and the enemy doesn't have anything to impact your rotation by staying behind. Turn 5 is a good example as mentioned; for phases 1 and 2, there's virtually no detriment to clicking Twintania while stacking in your groups. Likewise for the snakes, if you can move in for free. The AK boss, WP boss, Ifrit EM, and Titan EM have you stacking for large periods of time on their rears without any negatives, and clicking them for a roughly 5 DPS increase is quite worth the effort. On the other side of the fence, T1-4, and a large portion of bosses and trash have AoEs and cleaves and mechanics where going for that 5 DPS increase just will in all likelihood lose you a GCD and completely negate their benefits.

Just a question on this if anyone can answer/try it out for me, what kind of damage is a casters AA? I mean its obviously physical but is it neutral or is it blunt and can be affected by monks buff/debuff?