Engame Warriors and Provoke

There was a spirited (and ultimately way too long) thread in the General Discussion forum about healers and Swiftcast. Part of the discussion turned into a generic argument over what cross skills are considered must-haves. Someone posted that for Warriors Provoke and Flash were probably in that category. A couple Warriors came in and said they never bothered to get Provoke and frankly didn't see the need for it. I put in my two cents worth but figured these were not genuine end-game players and kind of shrugged it off.

Then a couple of days ago I was running my Bard through CT vainly hoping to get some upgrades on his DL armour, but no just a bunch more tank and dragoon pieces hitting the floor (even now I have never seen a Bard armour piece drop there). The tanks in our group were two Warriors, both well geared. We got to the boss fight where the 3 parties alternate turning into 'ghosts' in which state they are able to do damage on the boss. The key move is after turning into ghosts the party's tank Provokes and does a tank swap with the former-ghost tank. One of the Warriors stated that he didn't have Provoke so could the other Warrior do the tanking? No one said anything, but I was flabbergasted. The thing is, the Provoke-less tank seemed to be otherwise well played.

I'm assuming this is a rare case, but have others run into this kind of situation?

Even though I personally like Flash (AOE, uses MP rather than TP, can be used during pacification from Berserk, etc) it's not a must have. Provoke, on the other hand, is. Without Provoke you basically literally can't tank Thanatos in CT, EX Primals (even Garuda), or Turn 2 the normal way. Tank swapping mechanics require you to have Provoke and (I assume) there will be more of these in the future.

Provoke is definitely a must, Flash not so much - though by having Provoke you'll also have access to Flash if you need it.

I mean, you can tank well without provoke. Provoke isn't something that boosts our "tanking," or helps generate emnity in a traditional fight.

But, just as your example shows, there are some things that you just can't do without provoke. Or rather you can't do them without creating a whole lot of problems.

Turn 2 or Titan EX are probably the most widely known examples. You can do these without provoke, 100% doable. You just have to either make your other tank stop doing anything while you try to rip agro, or you have to throttle it pretty carefully. But, you run the risk of things going terribly wrong.

Flash is just really nice to have IMO. It's basically resource free agro with an instant animation.

You can get away with no Provoke outside of Coil and Extreme Primals. Once you get there though, you 100% are required to have Provoke. To the point where you are useless if you don't have it.

lol I can see it now in Ultima HM,
TANK1 : "HEY IM AT 4 STACKS AND I HAVEN'T BEEN ATTACKING AT ALL TAKE HIM!! TAKE HIM!"
TANK2 : "I'M TRYING AS HARD AS I CAN! I DON'T HAVE PROVOKE!!"
TANK1 : "USE A STRENGTH POTION THEN!!"
TANK2 : "FUUUU!!!!"

I honestly didn't use provoke on my PLD until TitanHM when heart phase reset Aggro and automatically went to healer when he/she healed after that jump. Now i feel like i use it all the f'ing time now.

Yeah it's one of things, once you get it and start using it, you'll wonder how you ever did without it.

Ultima HM is probably the first fight where it's basically mandatory. CT you'll generally get by without it, but it comes in extremely handy. EX Primals/Coil you are pretty much gimping yourself intentionally without voke, and would be turfed from groups almost immediately upon them discovering that you're lacking it.

You can get away without provoke as you work your way to 50, but if you want to do anything even remotely close to endgame, it's a must have with no if and but.
There's virtually no other way to efficiently swap the mob between tanks, and you're going to be forced do that even for easy stuff like Ultima Hard Mode.

Provoke is on a much higher priority then swiftcast is for healers, any tank who doesn't see why needs a swift kick up the butt.

Mark my word, Tank without Provoke is useless Tank especially Primal Extreme and Bahamut Coils OR situation you must pull mobs immediately from healer

nothing groundbreaking here... you need provoke, and that much comes it up.

I think you do need provoke, especially with a fight like Ultima HM where two tanks need to juggle hate. I think Flash is actually more important while going from 1-50 because of the number of mobs that players sleep. It allows a hate generator that doesn't wake the mob. However, after getting to 50, most parties just let me take the damage and don't sleep things, so overpower is the key.

If you plan on doing a role successfully you should try an unlock all cross class abilities. Why nerf yourself?

Provoke is handy in any situation. If you're raised during a fight you can automatically get yourself back on top of threat.

As said before provoke is required in coil. I've got a static coil group but if we picked up a war we would automatically assume they have provoke.

You actually use provoke many times even before 50. Quarn for instance, saves your much trouble on the with a well timed provoke. Brayfox as well, with that stupid gob. And even earlier, by abusing the 20yam range.

Reset mechanics, roaming mobs, add pops, provoke was always there, just that the content didn't punish players hard enough that players can brute force it rather then "provoke".

It always makes me laugh when people say provoke doesn't generate enmity. In that case benediction doesn't heal. Lol

Its like 7 extra levels that u can level in less then 2 hours. Stop been lazy people, I dont care how godly geared you are (chances are that youre not), if u tank without provok i will kick you.

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Originally Posted by sybase

It always makes me laugh when people say provoke doesn't generate enmity. In that case benediction doesn't heal. Lol

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It doesn't, though.

It sets your enmity as equal to that of the party member with the most enmity. If you already have hate, it literally does NOTHING. It's not an on-cooldown skill, it's an "I need to be the thing that thing wants to kill" skill that requires FOLLOW UP to maintain, or else you'll just lose hate again.

To be fair, it actually does generate 1 whole point of enmity no matter who's highest on the list. It should never be used if you're not losing hate/need to immediately pick up an add, tho.

It's funny that SE said the cross class skills are not 'required' for the game.
I'd like to see and example from SE to show us, in Garuda EX, how can a WAR pull the green plume without provoke, especially when it first come out.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

I'd like to see and example from SE to show us, in Garuda EX, how can a WAR pull the green plume without provoke, especially when it first come out.

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You can simply have the party eat the super tornado thing. It's not pretty but it works if you have super-geared folks.

It's only 7 levels past what's required for Warrior anyway. It'd be another thing if a 30+ skill was absolutely critical.

While I've yet to set foot into the situations where Provoke is actually needed, I have seen a couple of instances earlier on where it would be nice (getting revived in the middle of a boss fight for example). So while I didn't have it because I hadn't felt a need for it until now I did go and grab it because I figured eventually I'll be at those end-game fights that need it.

1-50 it isn't honestly required but i60-i90 you should definitely have it.

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Originally Posted by SpookyGhost

Even though I personally like Flash (AOE, uses MP rather than TP, can be used during pacification from Berserk, etc) it's not a must have. Provoke, on the other hand, is. Without Provoke you basically literally can't tank Thanatos in CT, EX Primals (even Garuda), or Turn 2 the normal way. Tank swapping mechanics require you to have Provoke and (I assume) there will be more of these in the future.

Provoke is definitely a must, Flash not so much - though by having Provoke you'll also have access to Flash if you need it.

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Agreed. But I have to add that Flash is way more useful than any other skill you get from cross class (maybe with the only exception of Convalescence).
It is useful to get instant aoe aggro while tanking/offtanking even before you're able to acquire the target. also if you just ended a sprint and have no tp.

It gets less enmity then overpower, but it's all around you and doesn't require a target. just today I used it to take Caduceus clone before targeting it (it's an hard to target situation) because i didn't have steel cyclone ready and I was also sprinting after (I was far away popping add). I managed to save the healer with flash.

And it's extremely useful when offtanking T1 ADS.

I also use it to mantain enmity in wp speedruns to avoid finishing tp with overpower.

however it was more useful before 2.1, when tp were an issue for war. now i don't finish them wuite often.

Provoke is a must. You need it not only for tankswapping, but also to save healer/dps if you lose aggro (it may still happen when aoe pulling if dps don't assist).
Not to mention it's a must for leveling, but well, you asked endgame.

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Originally Posted by sybase

It always makes me laugh when people say provoke doesn't generate enmity. In that case benediction doesn't heal. Lol

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well, provoke doesn't generate enmity if you use it as fight starter or if you use it when you're first in enmity list.

it may be even dangerous.
pld/war starts fight with provoke -> tank gets damaged -> healer/Eos heals -> healer gets hate.

provoke generates enmity only if you aren't first on enmity list.

but provoke is a required skill. that's why SE needs to make gld learn it before lv 15, so any war has it.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

It's funny that SE said the cross class skills are not 'required' for the game.
I'd like to see and example from SE to show us, in Garuda EX, how can a WAR pull the green plume without provoke, especially when it first come out.

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I agree that people should have all of their cross-class stuff, especially provoke and swiftcast, that said however...

If SE made a video, they would have no double jobs, which means one warrior, one paladin.... the warrior main tanks, and the paladin gets to provoke the spiny. So there would be no need for a warrior to provoke a spiny... like.. ever.

Provoke is definitely mandatory. Not really a tank untill you get a 'taunt' - youre just a very durable damage dealer :D

No one has mentioned Garuda Extreme yet? Provoke is the only method of taking the Spiny Plume off of a target.

Provoke is also the only likely way to pull apart the second sister from Garuda (if the main tank takes the first + Garuda).

Provoke is very likely needed to catch up to the main tank in T5 (after the adds in phase 1, or at any point if the main tank dies), unless they are managing their combos to stay just above the healers (if that's the case it's a serious DPS loss).

Basically in any situation where there's two tanks (e.g. all of Coil and Extreme Primals and Crystal Tower), Provoke makes acquiring and swapping enmity much easier than having the other tank play a careful dance of enmity to make sure they are less than one combo above you. Even with Provoke, you usually want a charged up Skull Sunder or Butcher's Block to cast immediately to prevent the previous tank from re-taking enmity. This is especially so if, at any point, you are not targeting the same enemy as the main tank.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

No one has mentioned Garuda Extreme yet? Provoke is the only method of taking the Spiny Plume off of a target.

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First reply did you read? You don't need Skull Sunder or Butcher's Block preloaded as long as the other tank knows you're taking aggro they should've stopped with their combo anyway.

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Originally Posted by YuriRamona

No one has mentioned Garuda Extreme yet? Provoke is the only method of taking the Spiny Plume off of a target.

Provoke is also the only likely way to pull apart the second sister from Garuda (if the main tank takes the first + Garuda).

(snip)

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First one yes, definitely.
Second one not so much. I´ll pick up the Sisters with a BB Combo. First one when Garuda casts her Big AE Thing,second one when she reappears to summon her sisters,and then BB on my assigned Sister. even a uncombod BB works if she takes her Time...

If you are my tanking partner and you don't have provoke, either you leave or I leave, no way around it you NEED provoke as has been said.

If you plan to tank any endgame content "Provoke" is required, even more important than Swiftcast on healers. You need it to pull spiny plume in Garuda EX, tank swap in Titan EX, Ifrit EX, Coil T2 etc. You should even have it for CT, especially for Thanatos (you should provoke off the other parties tank when your team turn invisible, you won't always have a PLD as the other tank unless you make your own group)