Limit Break is cool, but what if we had Dual/Triple Techs?

Watching the End of an Era video, I always get a kick out of seeing the Warrior roll across the charging Paladin's back and seamlessly flow into a Steel Cyclone. It's a great image, and it speaks to the teamwork theme that the narrative pushes so vigorously.

It's not a Final Fantasy staple that immediately springs to mind, but that maneuver reminds me of a Dual Tech from Chrono Trigger. Fair legal ground! How could it be implemented mechanically? You could introduce another common resource bar like Limit Break, but that's clunky... but with 'hybrid' jobs teased, I start to wonder about supportive roles players can take in an MMO.

What if a hybrid job could, either as an ability with a long cooldown or as their own Limit Break, target a player and unleash a specialized Dual Tech? Target a tank, he uses you as a pivot and sweeps his weapon across a horde. Target a dps, you vault her into the sky where she rains arrows down.

Thoughts?

Impractical without some form of voice communication. If someone triggered the LB that threw me in the air while I was on BRD I would freak out unless I had ample warning. Then you have to take into consideration that the hardest fights in this game are only hard because of the massive emphasis on dodging mechanics. Cool idea and this game totally needs some kind of interaction since for the most part it feels as if you are playing solo in a party.

Incase anyone is wondering what bit OP is talking about it starts at 2 mins and it looks epic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

...

---

If they ever make a Mime job, as impossible as that sounds to balance, their Dual Tech could be taking the shape of the targeted party member, doing a big arena-wide effect appropriate to the partner, and then slip back into their original form without ever taking control away from the targeted party member. Tank partners get the generated aggro.

For other hybrids, you could take a few approaches:
Granting temporary invincibility is obvious, but exploitable. Development has been understandably reluctant to use it.
Providing a hotkey or specific controller input to confirm activation of a Dual Tech, once a hybrid approaches you and activates his own ability. This is a bit clunky.
Ensure that the participating team member retains full mobility while executing the Dual Tech. Possibly integrate that into the ability itself, like "everyone I run by gets healed with radiating pulses of holiness". The problem here is that it still takes away player agency regarding what he can do - even if his attacks in the Dual Tech are stronger, he might have needed that time to stun or silence an enemy!

It's definitely a tricky problem.

Having cooperative combos in battle would bring a new dimension to the battle system. I'd like to see it.

(Please make each class/job's LB have a unique animation first though! DRG/MNK doing Omnislash and Braver? ugh...)

Wtb Twin Magic.

Basically we want skill chain and the lengendary magic burst oh the fun memories

I can get behind skill chain. Suppose that you cast (start casting, not finish casting) Medica a few seconds after Succor, the Medica increases succor Galvanize by 10%. I like that

I was thinking the same exact thing just now and was coming in to post something about this. Then this post was here. Limit breaks are cool and all, but I was thinking something smaller in scale like dual/trip/quad techs would be awesome. I think this would be awesome. A party member could initiate it and it could be seen based on an aura as a visual clue that a player wants to activate a tech. A color based on what level someone wants to perform such as a blue aura for a dual, green for triple, etc. The only problem is that it can't be stronger than a limit break otherwise it would render LBs useless. And the first two levels are *almost* useless as it is.

I actually heard from a friend of mine that Square was trying very hard to implement something like this before the release of patch 1.0 for FFXIV. I absolutely love the idea. Certain classes should have great chemistry with one another. White Mage + Paladin, Monk + Dragoon, Summoner + Black Mage, etc.

For example, Monks and Dragoons could have a beautifully animated AoE attack (to make up for lack of) at the cost of a LB bar, or even a coordinating skill on both ends @ the same time. Black Mages and White mages could have a dps single target attack that encases an enemy in fire with a stone cocoon, or even a raining regen with a slight Defense buff using a form of Cure and Blizzard. Edit: Positioning would also come into play. Monk+Dragoon, both on Flanks of the enemy, Blm/Whm distance from each other

The argument comes up that it would take a lot of communication to do so, but thats usually the case for most games in regards to Post End-Game raids (such as Coil). For this situation, it wouldnt be a *necessity*, but emphasizes strong team compositions/partners for maximizing fun and gameplay potential

right now the healing Limit Break (anything other than lvl 3) seems really weak. Also the tank limit break is pretty weak except in rare situations. So Limit Break is basically a DPS tool now, but the system could use some more flair. How about a skill tree for your character, for example a tank class could choose if their limit break reflected magic damage, or physical damage, or ....

I like the idea but they would have to implement voice tie it with linkshells

IT would definitely be a great thing to add to this game to choose what you wanted your LB to do. It would certainly make the game more interesting and add individuality to your own character, to be sure.

During the beta period, I suggested that SE should allow us to choose which tier of Limit Break we wanted to activate (and chain them together within say 10 seconds or else the whole gauge depletes) rather than the all-or-nothing system we have now. That way, we could have some really creative uses for LBs that rely on party strategy.

Imagine the phase in the new Ultima Weapon hard mode where the Magitek bits spawn and Ultima calls down 4 airships to crash on the battlefield - the only safe zone is in the center, which is inevitably where the lasers point. Now imagine a party with 3 LB bars filled. What if the party was allowed to have the Black Mage pull Starstorm (Lv2) to wipe the majority of the bits and the tank pull Shield Wall (Lv1) to help survive the airship drops. Of course, under the current balance this would be laughably OP. But if SE tuned the battle to allow for these kinds of mechanics, it would force a party to make a decision about whether they wanted to be aggressive and focus on wiping out the bits for the next phase or be defensive and try to survive the airship crashes.

This is just one idea I had off the top of my head, but the possibilities are endless. The battles themselves would have to be re-tuned, but I think it would open up a lot of strategic opportunities.

They did try something along those lines in 1.0 didn't they? Not nearly as spectacular as what you're describing, but I wouldn't mind seeing it make a comeback.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by darios

Basically we want skill chain and the lengendary magic burst oh the fun memories

---

Except that system was designed to be complex and deep and the players bastardized it down to only Distortion/Fragmentation and lv3 light, excluded anyone who could not open or close either, and basically said "F*ck you" to every element that was not ice or lightning.

Healing LB should apply buffs as well IMO.
Tank, should apply a strong stoneskin like shield .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

Impractical without some form of voice communication. If someone triggered the LB that threw me in the air while I was on BRD I would freak out unless I had ample warning. Then you have to take into consideration that the hardest fights in this game are only hard because of the massive emphasis on dodging mechanics. Cool idea and this game totally needs some kind of interaction since for the most part it feels as if you are playing solo in a party.

---

It could be that the initiator gets some sorta marking on their head, and then its up to another player to ready that marking and initiate on their end to finish it off. It really wouldn't be that hard....fancier players wouodl even macro it with text and <se.#>

I mean c'mon...people in ffxi initiated multiple player weaponskill chains with out voice chat....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cearka

It could be that the initiator gets some sorta marking on their head, and then its up to another player to ready that marking and initiate on their end to finish it off. It really wouldn't be that hard....fancier players wouodl even macro it with text and <se.#>

I mean c'mon...people in ffxi initiated multiple player weaponskill chains with out voice chat....

---

I will give you that point but I was mainly talking about the being thrown in the air part. The "difficult" part of the battles is movement and that kinda movement would be so hard to time properly. More than likely it would just be another "we must use this at this time because it is the only time we can and it is most effective". It really wouldn't add anything but yet another scripted timing feature in battle that would become boring in a matter of days because it will become standard practice like all the other scripted battles.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maku

If someone triggered the LB that threw me in the air while I was on BRD I would freak out unless I had ample warning.

---

legitimately lol'd

i'd like to see this, would bring excellent immersion into the battle classes.

They could also implement something like Quickenings/Mist Knacks from Final Fantasy XII. Where each player has a charge gauge that fills up as players progress through battles and stuff in dungeons. Each gauge can charge independently (although all players can see each others charge bar progress) and they can be activated by each play independently. If one player activates theirs, it'll use a special ability for their class that is maybe more powerful than a normal ability, but isn't all that powerful.

But the more players in the party that use theirs within a certain period of time, the abilities will chain together and create a more powerful effect. If all four players activate theirs together, it will unleash a specialized "Concurrence" based on the party's make up.

The system would have to be altered in eight person parties and raids though, since an eight player chain would probably be broken and make fights way easier.

Ah Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, how we miss the Multi Character Combos.

In order for this idea to work effectively it would have to have the proper feedback and time window:

A. It needs to be clearly indicated, in some way, what needs to be done

B. It needs a larger time window than Skill Chains did.

C. It needs to not be something we overly or rarely base our strategies around

FFXI became formulaic because of WS Chains but WSC's were doable because the combat was so mind-numbingly slow.

FFXIV is a different game and super fast paced...Perhaps they could revamp the Limit Break system to get closer to what you're talking about.

That being said, the example you cited isn't a terribly good one because it's just a roll over a teammate's back into a Steel Cyclone. That's a purely cinematic appeal and doesn't provide much as far as a gameplay mechanic goes. Would rolling over your teammate's back make the SC stronger? Doesn't really make much sense. But in the cinematic it works because it's a different medium.

Still an interesting idea to put forth...I just don't see it, at this point, really working in the system of FFXIV.

I loved skillchain back in 11 and I'm all for it. The only downside to having it in FF14 is that it has the potential to favor certain party composition. The major hurdle would be balancing the unique benefit of each combo. This is particularly true should there be multi tier skillchains.

Give each class an ability that procs another class' ability.

For example, the Archer uses Heavy Shot, which procs his own Straight Shot. This would be like that, except it would choose a random party member and they'd have the normal time limit to use their ability.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by skho01

I loved skillchain back in 11 and I'm all for it. The only downside to having it in FF14 is that it has the potential to favor certain party composition. The major hurdle would be balancing the unique benefit of each combo. This is particularly true should there be multi tier skillchains.

---

Glad to see someone sees the consequences of systems like skillchains.

The main problem is that you can't really implement them without making a lot of concessions and with an extremely high risk of making the system wasted effort. You obviously have to maintain parity between jobs that contribute to these skillchains, otherwise you have the "distortion/lv3 light or GTFO" scenario again.

Usefulness is also very important. If Combo A that involves a PLD using Riot Blade followed by a DRG using Jump does the most damage out of all combos, then raids are going to only use PLDs and DRGs. You could make them less about damage and more about additional effects like debuffs, but then you run into an even bigger problem since boss level mobs would obviously have to be immune to those effects (thus making the system useless when not fighting trash mobs). Having buffs proc on use for the party would basically create that PLD+DRG 0nry scenario as well.

From a mechanics standpoint it wouldn't mesh well with what we have now. You'd have a LOT of missed opportunities to use these SCs when people have to move out of stuff and avoid environmental hazards. You could go the route of the original battle regiments where both players have to toggle BR mode, but that would put people off since it pretty much requires vent/teamspeak to do as quickly as possible so that both jobs can return to doing their thing during the fight. Not mentioning that BR mode locked out out of your other abilities.

+1 for combo LB attacks, I see a few people putting the obvious together, but anybody should be able to combo with anybody, just different effects and outcomes.

I do miss the Everquest 2 combos, its been awhile so I dont remember too well. But basically someone would start the chain and everyone would get a window that pops up with the different classes. Once a class uses a certain combo skill the pop up window will update. It could just be a simple 2-3 people chain or even everyone in the raid. If people didnt bother using the chain it wasnt a big deal but once it was completed it would add some nice bonuses and shiny effects. Im sure someone else could remember it better haha.

The return of.... Battle Regiments!!!!!! xD

I don't know if it's been said already but I think as an alternative to having to target another player, cast the LB and then maybe target an enemy or location on the ground, you could just be able to cast LB while someone else is already doing so. Then your character could add to the animation/effect and it would never catch anyone by surprise or whatever.
There's already an animation for anyone who's not doing anything but this would lock you in to their cast timer too.

Example: BLM LB with a Bard helping would add arrows that rain down vs DRG LB with a Bard helping where the Bard would cast a shining arrow at the target. Something like that.