I have a paladin about to reach level 46, so far things seem to be just fine, but I have never done any content above Qarn as tank, so I'd like some advice on "how to tank" because I feel that end-game content will be different than the standard "grab and stab". I came from White Mage and generally have an idea of "what to NOT do" such as "don't let healers get pwned" but things have progressively become harder than I thought it'd be.
My playstyle as of now:
1. Mark enemies up to number 3 (or 5 if the enemies are not patrolling so we have time) (they're on my mouse buttons)
2. Start with Shield Lob and Flash on target number 1
3. Converge enemies where possible to a cone and move directly behind them so they will fart towards lancers and pugilists (I heard both have mechanics that involve stabbing asses)
4. Use Shield Swipe when I can slip one in (target aggro meter is about 60% or below for DPS)
5. Use Flash every 2-3 combos or so, or when the blind falls off
6. Use Fight or Flight before engagement, pop Rampart directly before melee targets arrive at kissing distance
7. If there are only two targets, Fast Blade target 1, Savage Blade Target 2, RoH target 1.
8. If there are more than 3 targets at once and we're mid-combat, mark 3 targets, and once target one dies, re-assign marks (so target 2 becomes 1, 3 becomes 2, a new target becomes 3)
9. Assign "Do Not Attack 1" when target should not be attacked (such as copperbell easy last boss when an add comes through, or halatali's boss when gw fires pour out), re-assign to target 1 if adds are dead
The "problems":
1. I sometimes forget to use Flash and a few hits get to healer. What do you guys do to remind yourself about his?
2. I try to grab distant targets when I'm busy (attacking a target) with shield lob, but it doesn't seem to be enough. I forget to use Provoke most of the time. What do you guys do in this situation?
3. If I can't grab distant targets, I usually will physically walk to them and spam Flash, this of course means that my current target will move too (if it's melee), presenting problem to melee allies
4. I usually forget to use Convalescence. When do you use it?
5. Sometimes there are people that AoE the whole mob. How do you deal with that situation? I usually spam Flash but I run out of mana pretty quickly with that. I know that I generally don't use mana for anything else, but I like to keep my mana at certain threshold so I can use one last Flash if I need to. Is popping Riot Blade enough for this? How often and when?
Any advice is appreciated :D
Want advice on "how to tank"
Printable View
-
01-13-2014, 03:18 PMRaestlozWant advice on "how to tank"
-
01-13-2014, 03:34 PMSpookyGhost
1. Flash 2-3 times at the start as opposed to just the 1. Once you hit 50 you'll also have access to Circle of Scorn which will help a lot as it puts a DOT on all the enemies in a circle. Initial aggro counts for a lot, so it's safer to Flash a few times and let the healers heal rather than Flash once, wait a few combos, and Flash again. Also make sure to tab target when you get a nice lead on #1 - typically it's nearly dead before aggro becomes a problem.
2. Provoke is better if you're trying to grab from a distance, then when it gets close use Shield Lob and an un-comboed Rage of Halone.
3. Don't walk to them. If you have melee in your group, moving the mob just makes it take longer. If you can't reach it with Provoke or Shield Lob just wait it out.
4. When you're in need of healing and don't have other cooldowns to blow. You'll know when you need to press it.
5. AOEing before 50 is kinda silly, but if they're doing it then your only option is to Flash and replenish with RB. You can usually just Flash til half, FB->RB->Flash->FB->Flash->RB->etc. If there's a Bard in your group, ask them to sing Ballad. -
01-13-2014, 03:46 PMRaestloz
Thanks! So, if I use multiple Flashes, should I just use FoF AFTER the flashes or before Shield Lob like usual?
-
01-13-2014, 03:55 PMSpookyGhost
I usually never bother with FoF on trash pulls, but iirc (correct me if I'm wrong someone) it does affect Flash's aggro so, if that's the case, popping it before SL would be optimal. Otherwise, pop it after your Flashes. It's likely you won't need to use FoF for trash tho, so it might be better to save it for snap aggro on a patrolling mob or if you need to burn certain trash faster. Just make sure it's up when you get to a boss and you're solid.
-
01-13-2014, 04:09 PMMikedizzy
I am going to be leveling my PLD next and this was a lot of good information...thanks so much.
-
01-13-2014, 04:42 PMPaikisFoF doesn't affect Flash. FoF boosts damage done, and Flash doesn't do any.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpookyGhost
-
01-13-2014, 05:28 PMRaestloz
What if healer draws aggro (maybe I don't manage mine properly) and provoke is on cooldown? should I best?only shield Lob and hope for the best?
-
01-13-2014, 05:42 PMBamboofox
If I don't have Provoke and someone peels aggro, I (after hoping the person doesn't run away) usually Shield Bash the target to stun it and hold it still long enough for an uncombo'd Rage of Halone. That seems to work in most cases.
-
01-13-2014, 05:43 PMPaikisFast Blade -> Shield Bash -> Spirits Within -> Savage Blade -> Rage of HaloneQuote:
Originally Posted by Raestloz
Stuns the mob in place and lets you wind up an Halone combo as well as using Spirits Within if it isn't already on cooldown. -
01-13-2014, 05:44 PMKoujiGeki
Let's over zealos dds die.
-
01-13-2014, 08:02 PMRaestloz
But using shield bash would require me to move to the target's location, wouldn't it? I was hoping for a solution that allows me to stay in place (for my melee allies). But I suppose some things are just not possible.
Thanks for the input! What about Shield Swipe? Do you guys use it? -
01-13-2014, 09:47 PMZfzIIRC Shield Bash will reset your combo. So that RoH is very weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
When healer draws aggro, it's mostly easy to just respond immediately by dumping your next enmity combo skill on that mob. Enmity needs to be managed pre-emptively anyway. So first put emphasis on that.
--
Shield Swipe is for TP conservation and damage mitigation, not for enmity. Using Swipe will lower your total enmity output. Use it whenever you have no trouble with enmity.
Regarding the problems listed in the original post:
1. Forgetting to use Flash means you're not actively checking on the enmity levels on your secondary targets. You need to tab-target to them and take a peek at the enmity situation. This is best done during your GCD. Beware when there are targets asleep around you, it's perhaps best to click instead, unless you have learnt to know your autoattacks. (Once you become familiar with the attack animations of your PLD, autoattack motions stand out and gives you a precise window of opportunity when you are free to tab to sleeped targets to check on enmity, to do markings, etc., without waking them up. I do it all the time.)
2. Never leave any target outside your melee range unless it is under crowd control (Sleep/Repose/Bind). Bind is special because you still want it close for Flash to hit, but not close enough for it to do melee attacks. Not that many people use Bind anyway. (Sleep/Reposed targets do not escalate healing enmity, but Binded targets do.)
In a pack with one ranged target mixed in, you need to move all the melee targets to the ranged target. Remember, melee enemies follow you everywhere, you don't have to tank everything exactly where they were.
In a pack with multiple ranged targets, you can use line-of-sight. For example, that last room with a coffer, in Haukke, just before the last boss. The room has 3 ranged wisps(?) and a wolf. If you shield lob any one of them, then exit the door back into the passage, and stand snug against the wall on either side of the door (not across the passage), then all those targets will follow you (ranged targets will move if you are out of line of sight).
It used to be worse in beta when absolutely all the ranged enemies would do only ranged attacks. They changed it during beta such that many of those enemies now will move towards you in-between casts. Although the archer-type still won't move, which means you should move.
3. Moving = problem for melee
Yes, that is a problem, but only if you keep on moving nonstop. If you get into position during the pull, i.e. the first two GCDs of the pull, it's not a problem at all. In fact, any melee who wants to go all out during the pull is causing the problem, not you.
4. I usually forget to use Convalescence. When do you use it?
When the healer is capable of healing, you can use Convalescence. Use it when you know the healer is having trouble healing you. For example in stone vigil with the pack of 3 dragons, any bit helps so you should have Convalescence and Rampart both up as you pull.
5. AoE
You cannot win AoE enmity against a higher level and better geared damage dealer. In that case, all you can do is spam Flash and then recover using Riot Blade and spam more flash. You should tab target and drop that Riot Blade combo where it's most needed. Beyond that it's not your fault that you're lower level, using a lower level weapon. That's just how the game is designed.
When that happens and after the fight you're sitting at 0MP, just stop and wait for the MP and tell your party you're waiting for MP to recover. That would be a big enough tip to the BRDs to sing a song. Other than that, just work towards always having the highest damage weapon you can have at each level. If PLD is your first class, then the story quests will give you all the level appropriate gear you ever need. If it's an alt class, then you need to pay attention and never enter a dungeon holding a weapon that's 5+ levels below your character level. -
01-13-2014, 10:52 PMWarrlordd
use that ability you have, called cover, shield bash.
I use FoF on trash pulls at the very start because the faster one of those things dies, the less damage you take. And thats what it's all about. -
01-13-2014, 11:45 PMMaelwysOption 1: If you can move, stun it. This gives the healer 6 seconds to be able to dump their hate and get into a better position, and gives you 6 seconds for your provoke to recharge or for you to hit that mob with a few flashes (or nearly a full ROH combo)Quote:
Originally Posted by Raestloz
Option 2: If it has only JUST gone for the healer and you can't move, spam "shield lob" on it in order to get it to pingpong back to you (you will NOT have solid hate but might just about beat the healer's hate). Then spam flash a few times when it gets into range (and/or stun it).
Option 3: Ignore it. The healer can kite it towards you for you to catch it in your flash spam, or Knock it back or sleep it. Or a DPS can pick it up off them.
The ideal, obviously, is for you to lock down hate so that this doesn't happen. At higher levels you'll usually want to mark mobs in such a way that the most dangerous ones get targetted first (those with cones or AoEs or annoying stuns or summons or whatever), so that if something silly happens then it's only the trashiest of the trash mobs that run a little bit wild.
------------------------
Whilst exact fight mechanics will depend on the circumstances... I tend to lean towards quite a similar playstyle for most encounters:Quote:
Originally Posted by Raestloz
Typical standard trash mob pull for me: Mark everything. Flash, CoS, Flash, then spam RoH combos, swapping targets so that hate generated from the combos is spread amongst mobs as-needed. Use Spirits Within on cooldown if nothing needs silenced. FoF is used on cooldown, every cooldown. If I start losing too much HP and there's only a few mobs left, I'll Stun things rather than use cooldowns. Foresight and Rampart get used first when needed, but on trash mobs I'll very very rarely need them. Stoneskin is used towards the end of the fight so it's ready for the next pull.
Typical LARGE trash pull: Stoneskin pre-pull. Flash, CoS, Sentinel. Flash, Flash spam (until @20% MP), then Riot Blade Combo -> Flash. Pop Rampart when Sentinel Wears off. Can substitiute Bulwark plus Awareness + Foresight for Sentinel, or use Hallowed Ground in real "uh-oh" cases. Convalescence is used for additional healing where needed. Start rotating RoH combo and/or Stuns when only a few mobs left.
Typical Boss pull: FoF when running in. RoH once, uncomboed, to grab initial hate. Full RoH Combo, weaving in CoS (and since usually bosses don't need silenced, also Spirits Within). FoF used on cooldown every cooldown. CoS and Spirits used on cooldown as well if the boss does not need silenced as particular times. Stoneskin used when appropriate before a big hit. Shield Bash (Stun), Shield Swipe (Pacify) Flash (Blind) and Spirit's Within (Silence) saved and used to help mitigate certain abilities if the boss is not immune. Mitigation cooldown order rotation is usually Rampart -> Foresight+Awareness -> Sentinel -> Bulwark -> Rampart, but these rarely need to be popped back-to-back. Convalescence and Bloodbath can be used in place of lighter cooldowns or saved in order to counter any Healing Debuffs. Hallowed Ground is saved for dire emergencies. Abilities that can be dodged such as Cones or single-target spells are avoided, Undodgeable AoE moves are stunned/silenced if possible.
Naturally part of the fun is learning just which abilities can be silenced/stunned/dodged/etc and at what points in a boss's attack rotation is the best time to pop cooldowns or cast Stoneskin... but the above should be a reasonable guideline as long as you are watching the aggro meters of your teammates closely and keeping half an eye on your enemy's cast bar! ;)
Once you get to certain points of a few encounters at endgame, you'll need to be able to learn to predict where and when adds will spawn - positioning becomes vitally important to generate hate on them before they head for your healers - "Flash" is invaluable here, even as a WAR, because it's a PBAoE and you can use it to generate hate on mobs prior to being able to target them!
I only really use Marking Macros and a few party alerts. "Pulling enemy over, please wait" (for pulls) and "WARNING - Beware of enemy <t>" (to warn of particular abilities) being the two that get the most airtime... but having seperate alerts to let the party know you've just used Provoke, Spirits Within (Silence) and Hallowed Ground are also very useful at endgame. -
01-14-2014, 03:18 AMAlrikRougeIMHO, as I am not as experienced as most tanks out there but it is the first class I've ever learned so I am going to throw this out there, this is definitely something you should try and do all the time. Even if you have to make slight adjustments to your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raestloz
I've read in a couple of places a random comment that "...you don't parry or block if you are attacked from behind..." or some variations of that. If that's true, and it seems to be the case, always try and get the pulls all facing your front. Back yourself into a corner if there is one immediately available, or up against a wall if it is convenient. If you're out in the open, get all the mobs on your pull aggro'd, then walk through them so they all face you and away from the healer/DPS (with small exceptions to mobs that have a rear AoE, at which point point their behind at a 45 degree angle to the healer/DPS).
Otherwise, the above advice from everyone else is good and effective. -
01-14-2014, 08:01 PMRaestloz
Lots of good info! Thanks! :D
So, one more thing. I don't use the standard Tab behavior (the "target closest enemy" one that is assigned to Tab by default), I use target Filter and configure my tab to "target enemies on he screen, right to left".
In this configuration, when I tab, I have a soft-target on them. What I'm saying is that, if I already have a locked on target (one that you will auto-attack) and I tab, I can target other enemies but once I click on a skill, I will use said skill on them and immediately have my target focused on the one I'm auto-attacking. it's... pretty hard to describe. I hope someone out there have tried this too.
The problem is, this "soft target" doesn't seem to display the enmity meter, only if I lock-on them (assign them for auto-attack). Do any of you ever use this system? How do you deal with it? -
01-14-2014, 08:47 PMMailstrumthe way FoF works it increases Damage done by 30% but it does this by increasing the weapon damage... and Flash agro is based off weapon damage. better weapon you have stronger flash is. Other wise flash would just flat line early on and would be shit. So yes FoF does Effect Flash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
-
01-14-2014, 10:28 PMBixbyDon't use it for enemies myself (I do use target up/down through the party list for some healing, which does the sub-target thing), but I know what you're talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raestloz
Unless SE decides to show the enmity list for subtargets, there really isn't any way around it. If you want to see enmity levels, you have to hard-target. When I'm doing enmity checks, I usually click the enemy list instead of tabbing through. -
01-15-2014, 08:32 PMRaestlozYes! That's exactly what I'm talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bixby
I suppose some things just have to be worked around. Thanks for the tip! -
01-15-2014, 08:49 PMPaikisCan anyone else confirm?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailstrum
-
01-16-2014, 12:16 AMLord_Zlatanshouldn't shield bash come first because it breaks the combo?Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
-
01-16-2014, 12:18 AMLord_Zlatanyes. cover. no one ever uses it, and it is awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warrlordd
-
01-16-2014, 01:45 AMMaelwysPeople do use it occasionally, but sadly it's only awesome in certain situations due to silly buff stacking mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan
-
01-16-2014, 08:15 AMglen7187
In my own experience this is the advice I have to give.
Marking targets will soon kind of fade out in the Endgame content because everyone will either AoE everything or they already know what needs to be killed. I usually don't even mark targets anymore unless there is a target that needs to die for sure in a certain order. Some examples would be like in Haukke Manor HM the rooms that have the large lady boss and 2 imps, I would mark the lady boss as 1 because we want her to die first for sure. After that, it doesn't matter. Another would be Wanderer's Palace on the room before the first boss, I would mark the Tonberry 1 because once he dies the door opens, after that it doesn't matter. Because of this, I recommend getting more used to holding aggro on multiple targets. I'm not saying that you shouldn't mark targets all the time, I'm just saying that it is less important. If you want to mark them then by all means do so.
When holding aggro on multiple targets, you'll want to get used to using Flash 3-4 times right at the start and then doing Riot Blade Combo > Flash. Riot Blade Combo > Flash gives you an almost infinite amount of Flash since the MP you get from Riot Blade and the natural MP regen is ALMOST equal to the cost of Flash (it's a bit less so you'll still be losing MP but at a slow rate). You also want to get used to doing RoH combos spread out across multiple targets. But really with the increase in Enmity for Shield Oath in 2.1, you don't really have to do that anymore, you can just Flash and hold aggro easily.
You want to save your Provoke for if you ever happen to lose aggro, but the Shield Bash idea is good to stun it. A couple of Flashes should pull it back, but I'm not sure if a Flash or an uncombo'd RoH gives you more enmity.
When you pull ST mobs/bosses, after doing a shield lob (or maybe not even doing a shield lob at all) I always start with an uncombo'd RoH. This is to give me a jump ahead in enmity in case the DPS start firing right away. Generally you don't have too much of an issue in the lower level dungeons but I know in the endgame dungeons, especially when the DPS have strong gear, many of them tend to do just start firing as soon as the name turns red.
For Convalescence, I made a macro with that and Foresight. Foresight increases your defense but it isn't by much to make a significant DR as the other CDs do so I pair Convalescence with it. -
01-16-2014, 08:45 PMRaestloz
I've been wanting to make use of Cover, but I generally don't have enough time to try it:
1. I'm still looking for Cavalry Cuirass (yes, I've gotten Gallant Cuisses, but I want that cuirass)
2. You don't have access to Cover in Brayflox
3. When I have access to it, the healers are too far (because I explicitly try to get them as far as possible from threat) to use it from my standing point. Granted this last point is just a matter of be being lazy or not. Anyway, I'll try Cover whenever I have the chance, it's actually right on my quick to access buttons -
01-17-2014, 01:25 AMYunnie
"Cover" your healer if provoke is down. It takes a bit of micro to execute while moving into position and trying to regain agro. The hardest part is finding time to practice. I just bearly learned this in a turn 4 run a couple weeks ago. Cover is one of those job defining cooldowns that seperate paladin from warrior. It is very rarelly used and most people I talk to forget they even have it, but it can be a very clutch ability.
-
01-17-2014, 01:45 AMDhexNo. Fight or Flight modifies the damage dealt to the target. It does not "change" the Weapon Damage listed on your weapon (Phys/Magic DMG) - which is what your Flash is calculated with. So in no way does Fight or Flight change the value of your Flash. The enmity that is generated via Flash is specifically designed as a flat enmity gain tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mailstrum
It isn't rocket science to test either - 2 naked PLD with the same base stats - one uses FoF -> Flash the other simply uses Flash. They will do the same generated enmity - however if they were engaged the PLD with FoF would win out simply because their auto-attacks are going to do 30% more.