Forced Repetition

In a post on the forums talking about the "cutscene controversy" I read a post that said something along the lines of "We're expected to run dungeons tens or hundreds of times to get our rewards"... and it struck me as a statement that really shines a light on the philosophy of MMOs today.

Shouldn't we be wanting to run a dungeon hundreds of times instead of needing to run a dungeon hundreds of times? You shouldn't feel forced to do the same thing 100 times just to get better gear. That's insane. Games should be fun not monotonous. I think I'm just about done with games that subscribe to this philosophy.

I haven't achieved 50 on any characters so I really don't know what the end-game is like, but I think my love affair with this game is over.

Yes the problem with SE is they make you repeat boring tasks you don't really want to because you have to do it to progress. Fortunately, it's no longer as bad to cap myth as it was in 2.0. You can do bahamuts coil for 200, crystal tower to hit 250, and a couple daily dungeons and you're done. Heck I farm ifrit extreme to hit my cap. Feeling obligated to run Wanderer's Palace 10 times was pretty bad.

What would help people want to stick around in dungeons more, is to drop good crafting materials (say in stacks of 10-20 at a time), have perhaps some randomized loot in chests that's materia worthy, etc. Like, if you found ilvl 60 gear, that had 2-3 materia in it already and was convertible, that's a good way to make money. (Materia melded gear levels up faster, so you can turn it into materia faster). Dropping treasure maps on the last chests could also be useful. They have to give us a reason to do these dungeons a lot, not just because we need to hit myth cap

I suppose it depends on what you value in your game. Ask yourself: Do you enjoy the grind for the sake of grinding (wanting), or is it simply a means to get the best gear (needing)? Do you actually like running dungeons, being challenged by difficult content, talking with people, perhaps building a up a social network if you regularly create premade groups for dungeons? Or are they simply parts you feel you have to do to further progress the storyline, to get worthwhile equipment or gain levels? That's a question only you can answer; we all enjoy different aspects of play in our video games. What some people feels to be a slog, others find to be a wonderful and enlightening experience.

So, uh, yeah, I suppose that was a lot of words for it all being subjective. :p

Can watch Extra Credits for more expansion on the question, though it pertains more to game design than general play.

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Originally Posted by Visthra

Shouldn't we be wanting to run a dungeon hundreds of times instead of needing to run a dungeon hundreds of times? You shouldn't feel forced to do the same thing 100 times just to get better gear. That's insane. Games should be fun not monotonous. I think I'm just about done with games that subscribe to this philosophy.

I haven't achieved 50 on any characters so I really don't know what the end-game is like, but I think my love affair with this game is over.

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Ah! Another one joins our ranks.. Welcome to the jaded (and enlightened) gamer group. Careful. the white knights are incoming. :p

In all seriousness I agree. Hopefully one day someone will get an mmo right. GL though, some of us have been waiting a long time for such a game, only to get a bunch of repeating skinner boxes. :p I only play to be with friends now.

I find endgame to be extremely boring because of the repetition. I'm not particularly fond of dungeons anyway, and there are only a few that I do actually enjoy playing. But when you play the same one over and over again... It gets real old, real fast. I ran Wanderer's Palace so many times that I'll probably never purposely run it again.

Right now, I'm capped on myths. Have been for a few days. I'm so bored in game that I'd rather wander the forums. And when I get bored with that, I'll go on to something else. There's not enough variety in endgame to keep me occupied. But that's just me. It comes down to individuals and what they like to do though; Some people love running dungeons, leveling alts, crafting/gathering. They find the repetition enjoyable.

Well like, most people are happy to repeat bahamuts coil because it drops items you want and it's a fun challenge.
People don't like to repeat say, Wanderer's Palace or AK because the content is easy, there is no challenge, the rewards are weak, and there are only so many times a demon wall is fun.

Dungeons don't work well in this game because you know exactly how many you need to do to get all your items. There is no "maybe I'll get a mount" or "hopefully that lvl 80 body will drop!". It's all garbage loot, and with how easy it is to get ilvl 70/80 gear you're almost better off spamming CT. Since 1 CT run is almost a piece of lvl 70 armor. Heck, for 50k/piece you can buy crafted HQ lvl 70 items.

If the dungeon was actually fun and not boring I wouldn't care about running the dungeon over and over. This game's dungeons are seriously lacking.

Maybe what they can do is add a "secret" or random boss to dungeons, similar to how bonus wanted mobs spawn in leves. Maybe add a puzzle to get to the boss if it does spawn too.

I think the biggest challenge is how to make bosses with unique mechanics that seem fun but not gimmicky.

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Originally Posted by Visthra

I haven't achieved 50 on any characters so I really don't know what the end-game is like, but I think my love affair with this game is over.

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So naive, lol. I assume this is your first MMO?

Repetition though monotonous is still quite fun at times. Still won't make me watch cutscenes for the millionth time. Everything in life is repetition, this is no different. Although you are fighting the same fights, you are usually doing it with different people. At endgame, you either have fun with good players or you have fun with newbies by watching them fail spectacularly.

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Originally Posted by Defmetal

Well like, most people are happy to repeat bahamuts coil because it drops items you want and it's a fun challenge.
People don't like to repeat say, Wanderer's Palace or AK because the content is easy, there is no challenge, the rewards are weak, and there are only so many times a demon wall is fun.

Dungeons don't work well in this game because you know exactly how many you need to do to get all your items. There is no "maybe I'll get a mount" or "hopefully that lvl 80 body will drop!". It's all garbage loot, and with how easy it is to get ilvl 70/80 gear you're almost better off spamming CT. Since 1 CT run is almost a piece of lvl 70 armor. Heck, for 50k/piece you can buy crafted HQ lvl 70 items.

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But then we'll have people going "ran dungeon 231283463 times, not dropping i80 chest. WTF SE fix your RNG!" It's so hard to make people happy.
"Oh, then make them fix their RNG!" But then people will say that there's no value to items because they drop frequently and certain parties run them 24/7 and controls the market price. "It's not fair that the no-life people get to farm them 20 hours a day and I'm stuck with 0.8 % drop rate with 2 hours to play and 18 kids to feed and triple jobs and house chores!" Umm...

Hence the token system. But with the token system nowadays we have people saying "F'n casuals, I play and train 20 hours a day and you can buy i90 gears?! Look at all the i90 noobs walking around town, they don't deserve it cause "I" play 20 hours a day and beat the hardest boss before his mom does it!"

So what is it that we want?

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Originally Posted by Lumiin

If the dungeon was actually fun and not boring I wouldn't care about running the dungeon over and over. This game's dungeons are seriously lacking.

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Pharos Sirius is pretty fun.

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Originally Posted by Visthra

Shouldn't we be wanting to run a dungeon hundreds of times instead of needing to run a dungeon hundreds of times? You shouldn't feel forced to do the same thing 100 times just to get better gear.

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What mmo is capable of making farming fun?

and this is where the MMO genre is stuck, as a whole.

There needs to be a bit of innovation in terms of MMO design.

There needs to be a suitable alternative to the standard speed run(ugh, speed runs make my nauseous) Vertical Gear Treadmill, that is basic standard design for MMOs.

what that alternative is, I don't know. but the first dev to come up with it and make it work, will be printing money.

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Originally Posted by Visthra

I haven't achieved 50 on any characters so I really don't know what the end-game is like, but I think my love affair with this game is over.

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This is pretty much all MMO's. If you want to obtain something obviously you have to work to get there. Think of it this way: If you want money to live in a house, have clothes on your back and food to eat you need to have a job right? If you want more than that, I guess to be "successful" then you have to work even harder at that job. By doing so you have to go in and do the SAME thing day after, year after year. It seems to get anywhere in games or life a little repetition is unavoidable. Heck some of the best games I've played have repetition, especially when they're so good that you want to replay them. I think the real question for yourself here is, "Is it repetition that I enjoy?". If not then it's time to move on, no shame in that.

OP pointed out the purpose of a videogame. this game endgame is no different then the first dungeons.

you play to have fun not grind just to grind, almost everything you do someone needs something thats the only reason there doing it. SE really needs to rethink how this game needs to play. there last MMO let you adventure into depths of parts unknown find monster that gave you stuff if you could kill it, even without endgame or level grinding you have stuff to do, they had boss fights called BCNM's you had to trade beastmen seals for a orb then you went to a spot in a beastmen stronghold to start the instance fight. i'll take magian mog trials over ffxiv's hunting log anyday.

i rather have to do simple work to do content then just hit the DF queue there days i login never leave the inn :/, even 1.0 forced you to get items before you could do primal fights.

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Yes the problem with All MMORPGS is they make you repeat boring tasks you don't really want to

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Fixed that for you. If you're not enjoying it, don't play. Every MMO has this. Every single one.