PF Extreme Primals and Elitist Time Bombs

Oh boy. Some things we should be able to see coming from a mile away, but we don't because deep down we want to pretend it won't happen. It seems to me that there are quite a few people that can't deal with the reality of the party finder, in that party finder in no way guarantees victories on hard content just because someone calls something a farm and requires really high ilvl scores. I have found that if the group has already beaten an encounter that any problems preventing the group from downing that same encounter are usually resolvable with a little coaching and some pats on the back. Only problem is that more than half of these groups end up getting destroyed by elitist time bombs who go passive aggressive on party members, pissing the hell out of them, and thus causing further wipes.

My advice: If you see a guy saying "If x wipes the group, I'm out" or "Maybe I'll take you seriously if you don't die to x", use your better judgement: boot the guy. The elitist just sees other's as pawns to get new loot and associating with him isn't going to get you invites to future parties. It's better to earn the respect of good players still learning the fight than to pair up with a guy who sees other's as mere stepping stones to some virtual item.

earn respect?
do pray tell what respect you deserve when you join a pf group that asks only for exp players that know the fight and then proceed to die continously to the first wave of plumes on titan ex.
you deserve none. you are just wasting everyones time. you are dead weight hoping to be carried.

unless so indicated pf is not for your personal "learning run". this is what duty finder is for.

How about no? Me calling somebody an idiot because they got hit by titans landslide for the fifth attempt in a row does not make me elitest. Its not about "elitests" seeing other people as stepping stones its about terrible players hoping to get carried through content by other people. If you dont know the fight and you join a group that wants to farm and is asking for experienced players then you don't deserve respect, your just an asshole wasting the time of everybody else in the group for your own selfish reasons.

I wonder if these elitist requirements show up on the JP servers too, or if it's just us on the NA/EU that act this bad. I remember on FFXI the NA/EU players segregating each other and attaching themselves only to the good players to get things done, while the JPs were more paitent and would take time to show those keen to learn how to get the fights done so the whole community would rise up.

Simple. Buy a em carry and all your worries will go away!

'

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Originally Posted by Fendred

My advice: If you see a guy saying "If x wipes the group, I'm out" or "Maybe I'll take you seriously if you don't die to x", use your better judgement: boot the guy.

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Don't join a farm party if you are ding to X. Farm parties aren't for people who can't do the fight consistently.

I guess calling someone "something" is an elitist. Well, I call my dog, %^%&. Damn, I'm an elitist yo!

Even if I am an expert at a fight (and have cleared it enough times to do it in my sleep), I will not join a group with "DIE ONCE AND YOU ARE BOOTED" (or something similar) in the comment. I just don't like playing with those type of people. People make mistakes. People hit lag spikes. It happens to the best of us. I've joined too many 'elitist' groups with leaders who threaten to kick you if you mess up, and then THEY mess up more than anyone... but they don't get booted because they're the leader and somehow their explanation of "lol lag" is okay but other party members are just making excuses. It baffles me. There was one guy on my server, however, who advertised something along the lines of: die once and you get booted, myself included. I don't know if he stuck to his 'promise', but I would be impressed if he did.

And while we're on the topic...

I'm sick of people joining PF groups and NOT reading the message. I am brutally honest in my PF comments because I don't want to mislead anyone and I want to make sure we are all on the same page. I might make a comment like, "This is a learning group. Some of us are experienced while others are learning. You don't have to be experienced, but please be open to advice." Then, people join and we wipe on the first pull (big surprise) and someone drops saying, "I wanted a farming group. I don't have time for this." Well, I didn't advertise it as a farming group... so why did you join and waste everyone's time!?

Then I joined a Titan (extreme) group. Just before we're about to queue, someone says... "Oh, sorry. I thought this was Garuda Extreme." Another person says, "Oh, I thought this was Titan Hard." No, it's extreme. You would've known that if you read the comment about having experience past the heart phase and knowing how superbombs work... I suspect that all of these 'jump the gun' joiners are people who see something and IMMEDIATELY click join because they don't want to 'miss' their shot at joining. I can't tell you how many times I see an advertisement, read it, and click join only to be told that slot is now filled.

What I see in a PF comment entirely determines if I will join a group or not. Groups that ask for help nicely will always get my help if I'm available. Groups that ask for patient people who have time and are open to advice will always get my join. I did, however, join one group today that said "no dbags please" and then on the first pull, someone died, and the leader kicked him because he was 'bad'. The next pull, three people died to the same exact thing, but the leader did not kick those people...

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I will not join a group with "DIE ONCE AND YOU ARE BOOTED" (or something similar) in the comment. I just don't like playing with those type of people

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Problem solved

Dont play with them

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

I wonder if these elitist requirements show up on the JP servers too, or if it's just us on the NA/EU that act this bad. I remember on FFXI the NA/EU players segregating each other and attaching themselves only to the good players to get things done, while the JPs were more paitent and would take time to show those keen to learn how to get the fights done so the whole community would rise up.

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That's exactly how it's happening in my Japanese data center. In both PF and DF, after 2 wipes due to silly, easily fixable mistakes, the english players are calling it quits. The japanese players, I've found, are WAY more willing to work with the confused member of the team to ensure he gets the mechanic and adjusts properly for it. I always brace myself for disappointment whenever I realize I'm working with an all english party in DF because either the party will disband in under 10 minutes or they'll spend half the time bitching and moaning and abusing someone.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

That's exactly how it's happening in my Japanese data center. In both PF and DF, after 2 wipes due to silly, easily fixable mistakes, the english players are calling it quits. The japanese players, I've found, are WAY more willing to work with the confused member of the team to ensure he gets the mechanic and adjusts properly for it. I always brace myself for disappointment whenever I realize I'm working with an all english party in DF because either the party will disband in under 10 minutes or they'll spend half the time bitching and moaning and abusing someone.

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I would say JPs are more tolerable, but this is not always true. There are still some that disband after 2-3 wipes, as advertised on their PF comment. Though if after 2-3 wipes it gets really close to beating it, some may continue more attempts.

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Originally Posted by SulwynCaliope

That's exactly how it's happening in my Japanese data center. In both PF and DF, after 2 wipes due to silly, easily fixable mistakes, the english players are calling it quits. The japanese players, I've found, are WAY more willing to work with the confused member of the team to ensure he gets the mechanic and adjusts properly for it. I always brace myself for disappointment whenever I realize I'm working with an all english party in DF because either the party will disband in under 10 minutes or they'll spend half the time bitching and moaning and abusing someone.

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I'm English and I don't act like that.
Apparently I've been Englishing wrong.

(Learning Parties and players who have not beaten EX primals can skip this comment altogether)
Step 1: Set up a PF specifically asking for experienced players (further defining experienced as someone who has previously cleared the fight) with an ilvl that could believably produce the tanking/dps/healing required to clear the fight.
Step 2: Que the next primal up to ensure they have indeed cleared said fight.
Step 3: Monitor each attempt, find patterns in player weaknesses. See if anything can be done to correct these faults (perhaps they are used to different positioning, or different party setups (no ranged, all ranged, etc.)
Step 4: Kindly replace players that cannot meet the minimum requirements for success. (perhaps they are tired, experiencing latency issues, rusty from the week before, or were carried)
Repeat steps 2-4 as necessary = win
In other words I have no problems replacing people as necessary, a clear party is there for 1 reason, to clear. I've already learned the 3 fights and am solid on the mechanics of them. When I form a group specifically calling for people of the same caliber I expect to find people of the same caliber. If someone doesn't meet those requirements it's their responsibility to go back and learn the fight/fix their connection issues/get some sleep. I expect them to do so and when they do they are more than welcome to join my next clear run.

PF was set up to fix the DF problem, people wanted geared players and High level play (and for casual play aswell)

if you want to learn then make a PF learning party fo sure (srs don't join a farm or clear party if its your 1st time)

What I hate is when a PF leader is being all D'ish and puts up a farm tag and proceeds to die a bajilion times

>.>;

titan to me is one of these fights that is more individual skill, then coordination, so it becomes pretty apparent whose not capable of doing it. Even if everyonce all over the place, i have usually very little issue dodging the plumes, at worst ill get hit by 1 and survive. For that reason the fight for me is a faceroll, there really almost no strategising, besides where to go on gaol, how to handle adds, even that should be np if people can dodge. What continuously surprises me is how much people aern't capable of doing this fight, what's more how much groups can't get past heart, which imo is prety much titan hm recap. That being said, i understand how a mistake could happen, a lag spike, however that shouldn't occur again honestly. So I dont know why people join ex titan parties that are strictly for people that mastered the fight, when the same people continuously play poorly.

The biggest problem I find with these party finder "farm" groups is that many people join as classes they are just not use to. I understand why, they want to need roll on gear for various classes, and I do it for the same reason (with friends who will carry me). But pug farm groups are not for learning a new class.... It can be very frustrating... Then half the time a good player or two will quit before you get to replace the bad one, a vicious cycle forms

I've avoided the Titan Ex "farm groups" because they tend to be anything but. Garuda and Ifrit you have a better chance because Garuda is easier and if you're on Ifrit chances are you have a shot since those people actually made it past Titan.

In response to NovaUltimatum. The difference between JP and NA/EU is that NA/EU are self centered and for them it's all about me me me, what can I get, how soon can I get it. With JP it's all about community. What can I do to help my community improve. It's a cultural thing, one thing I learned when I lived in Japan for a year. You'll have selfish people anywhere, but culturally us Westerners are more selfish.

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Originally Posted by Holyhunter

'
Farm parties aren't for people who can't do the fight consistently.

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Could have fooled me. I'm maybe 0/12 on even beating Garuda Extreme in one of these so called 'farm parties'. On one particular occasion 4/8 of the party died to the very first Mistral Song, including the guy who set up the run.

Tried the same thing with Titan and people were dying to plumes constantly. Didn't even make it to heart phase.

Just seems to me that people join (or even set up) these farm parties with the intention of being carried through it.

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Originally Posted by NovaUltimatum

I wonder if these elitist requirements show up on the JP servers too, or if it's just us on the NA/EU that act this bad. I remember on FFXI the NA/EU players segregating each other and attaching themselves only to the good players to get things done, while the JPs were more paitent and would take time to show those keen to learn how to get the fights done so the whole community would rise up.

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Most of our Japanese party finders come with limits. for instance, it is common to see "If wipe 3 times we will dissolve the whole party". When this happens there is rarely anyone laying blame but everyone knows that if there is a wipe 3 times that the party will be dissolved and everyone goes their own way.

Japanese players are usually less in your face I guess when people are making mistakes. They'll still think that you're complete shit and that you shouldn't have joined the group and are probably talking about you behind your back to their FC/LS, but might not say it to your face. At least that's how it is with the ones I've played with.

My personal experience is that any group that just says "xxxxx Farm", "Will boot", or "Bring your weapons" has never been any good for anything but garuda. I've seen at least 20 groups made by people I have personally observed cause titan wipe after titan wipe by getting hit by landslides. I've also won titan despite a leader that had booted at least 8 healers/dps for mistakes and then on the winning try died 4x in a row post-heart.

Lesson is, the people that say don't get hit typically are the ones getting hit and going "crap, LAG". Making a group cause you need to find people to carry you is pretty common here.

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

In response to NovaUltimatum. The difference between JP and NA/EU is that NA/EU are self centered and for them it's all about me me me, what can I get, how soon can I get it. With JP it's all about community. What can I do to help my community improve. It's a cultural thing, one thing I learned when I lived in Japan for a year. You'll have selfish people anywhere, but culturally us Westerners are more selfish.

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true, most of the jp players are willing to help as much as they could; on the contrary, very limited amount of en players-from my experience-are willing to help as much as they could, not everyone is "bad" , but rotten apples are everywhere

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

In response to NovaUltimatum. The difference between JP and NA/EU is that NA/EU are self centered and for them it's all about me me me, what can I get, how soon can I get it. With JP it's all about community. What can I do to help my community improve. It's a cultural thing, one thing I learned when I lived in Japan for a year. You'll have selfish people anywhere, but culturally us Westerners are more selfish.

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Not really, we just stress personal responsibility more. You want to get something done, put in the work don't ask people you don't know for help, do it yourself. We say what others want to say but don't, if you suck you get kicked because you have not put in the time others have and are holding the group back. We do not cater to the lowest denominator we want everyone to be strong by stressing research and hard work or however you want to do it.

It may not be pretty but if you want something done and to be with similar progression it is what you have to do.You may not believe it but a sense of community builds from the respect you get by showing you put in the work and did not come to waste peoples time, just like anything in life you are rewarded for it. A lot of the time these elitist d-bags are actually normal decent people just happen to have a certain way of doing things.

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Originally Posted by NeonC

don't ask people you don't know for help, do it yourself.

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This right here is why the NA/EU community sucks.
This is a MMO (Massive Multiplayer) If people have never done content before they pretty much need the help of people they don't know to learn the content.
When every douche wants "Experienced Only" and no one is willing to take the time to help someone learn how are you suppose to learn? You can't solo everything in the game.
You can look at every guide online for something but it doesn't beat experience when it comes to learning and as soon as you say "I've never done it" people are like - well we don't want you, go get experience.... It doesn't matter how good of a player that person is, they are looked down upon because they haven't had the chance to experience a piece of content yet.

People with your mentality is why we don't have nice things.

The only thing I will give you is that there are some people that just can't learn and really do suck, but that's not everyone. Everyone one (including you) was new to something at one point and even you needed help from strangers to learn the content, so don't be a stuck up ass about it.

Make a practice group, stop acting like you are entitled to anything. You want help, hit up your friends. I don't get why that is so hard to understand. The community doesn't suck, it sucks for you maybe. People with your mentality is why there is an economy of selling primals, because you expect other people to do the work for you.

I don't expect anyone to do my work for me.
I don't have an issue helping someone that's new and expecting everyone to magically know how to do everything in the game.
It's the "elitist wanna be" mentality that's a drain on our community not the people that have trouble finding a group to help them out.

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

I don't expect anyone to do my work for me.
I don't have an issue helping someone that's new and expecting everyone to magically know how to do everything in the game.
It's the "elitist wanna be" mentality that's a drain on our community not the people that have trouble finding a group to help them out.

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I don't think it's elitist to expect someone to practice a primal fight a few times in duty finder before joining a premade. Otherwise you'll likely just be carried or cause an experienced group to waste time wiping multiple times.

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Originally Posted by Noahlimits

I don't think it's elitist to expect someone to practice a primal fight a few times in duty finder before joining a premade. Otherwise you'll likely just be carried or cause an experienced group to waste time wiping multiple times.

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I can't seem to find the Duty Finder option for Coil, care to take a screenshot of it for me?
</sarcasm>

Duty Finder is great for practice and all but not everything is in the Duty Finder and please point out where I mentioned having to carry someone.

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Originally Posted by CyanDvai

I can't seem to find the Duty Finder option for Coil, care to take a screenshot of it for me?
</sarcasm>

Duty Finder is great for practice and all but not everything is in the Duty Finder and please point out where I mentioned having to carry someone.

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You do notice I said 'primal' in the quoted line, right?

And if you're upset about party finder wanting experienced coil groups, make your own party finder group with "Newbies welcome, progressing group" as the message. There's nothing wrong with them wanting experienced groups, and there's nothing stopping people from making newbie groups. I don't know about Hyperion, but I see party finder groups like that all the time in Gilgamesh. And they fill up pretty fast, too. I don't know how successful they are overall, but they do fill up fast.

It's so funny to read this since that tactic of just calling something "farm" is a thing I've seen in previous games too. It's unfortunate to see these players who probably are very good themselves but just lack the ability to play well with others and actually make things work. They've spent all this time learning strats and rotations but still have no idea how to clear content. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKY-smJ6aBQ

I've seen several "Farm" parties and "Experience Onry" parties fail.
One "farm" party, the party creator was the one that kept getting killed over and over.

I see a lot of people (especially in forums) that think if you can't solo Turn 5 then all you want is a carry.

The word farm is a oxymoron in PF because there is no way you can guarantee a farm with people you don't know. Clearing before is a weak benchmark, and strictness is not effective as deterrence.

You just can't trust people you don't know, and sometimes you can't even trust the people you do know. If you want a farm you need to form groups where you know every member and know their skill at the job they're in.

That said my first clear was in a pug, in a very strict group in the second week. I wouldn't pug anymore. I think if anything enforcing consistency gets results and it honestly shouldn't bother you if you are consistent. And yes JP groups do it as well, it's the content that requires people to do this not the "culture" or whatever hogwash.

There's no farm unless you're clearing it every week with zero problems. I mean that's always what farm always implied to me. "Having it on farm" means you can go there and reap the rewards without breaking a sweat. No wipes, no enrages, no deaths, etc, etc, etc. So actually making a farm group without a group that runs regularly seems pretty impossible to me.

"Farm" and "experienced" parties can only be somewhat validated by everyone having items from said fights, but even then, they can obviously get carried and receive a piece of loot, and claim to know the fight mechanics.
There's unfortunately a lot of deception when it comes to looking for a valid team with these fights.

Farm in this PF context only seems to mean "we go a bunch of times acquiring a bunch of accessories", which is totally different to a static 'having something on farm'