I need help beating turn 4

My current setup is this: WAR PLD WHM SCH BRD DRG BLM BLM.
We made a serious attempt at clearing turn 4 last weekend and here's what we attempted:
Wave 1: AOE the bugs <- check
Wave 2: BLMs on OT soldiers, DRG and BRD on MT knights, switch when they're dead <- OT Knight is still up about 10% health when next wave starts.
Wave 3: Feed bugs to DN and burn it <- The DN has about 5% HP when the next wave starts.
Wave 4: OT gather rooks and bugs on the far side of DN, MT gather the ones closer and AOE in the middle <- We killed both rooks and 2-3 bugs.
Then we die when wave 5 starts. I think we need more physical dps since the Knight from wave 2 was still up. Is this correct? Should I have the physical dps switch to OT Knight sooner since we have a bit of time of me waiting on the DN? Should we have the BLMs kill MT soldier first and physical DPS kill OT Knight first so the DRG is near-by when DN drop?

It may be that your physical DDs just need to think of their rotations a bit more, when to use their attack buffs etc.

A few questions for your scenario when PHase 5 starts:
-Is anything still alivefrom the last wave?
-Did any tanks have the Pox debuff?
-Who died first and from what?

Is the first dreadnought dead before the start of phase 5?

couple things:

1. Do whatever you need to do to make sure that the DN is dead by the start of phase 4.

2. Use AoE limit break if you must to make sure everything is dead at the start of phase 5

3. Run the same strat for phase 5 as phase 2, and have dps switch to whatever isn't dead and kill them off BEFORE switching to that DN. DPS the DN as much as possible before phase 6

4. When phase 6 starts, all dps burn down the rook first. Mark it if you have to. Then do the DN that is at partial health.

5. At this point you should have 1 DN, 1 soldier, 1 knight, and 2 bugs. My static kills the other DN next, but alot of people kill the junk first. For us, we found that killing the DN next makes the damage sustained during enrage period easier for the healers to manage. However, your millage may vary.

6. Since you have two BLM, have them burn the soldier down with single target while the other physical dps work on the knight. The blm can't go crazy AoE at this point because they will take damage for every hit on the knight until its stoneskin breaks. (unless they use a limit break here, in which case they will not get reflect damage). Once the knight is low enough, just AoE until everything is dead.

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Originally Posted by Codek

A few questions for your scenario when PHase 5 starts:
-Is anything still alivefrom the last wave?
-Did any tanks have the Pox debuff?
-Who died first and from what?

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1 or 2 spiders most of the time are alive. No tanks ate the POX debuff. The SCH died first then WHM from Knights and Soldiers aggro though now that I think about that, it might have been due to the OT not getting aggro on both right away. Should the healers be in the North West corner to avoid immediate aggro?

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

Is the first dreadnought dead before the start of phase 5?

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The first dread is long dead at the end of wave 3.

You don't need the physical dps to kill both knights before the first dread spawns, the big issue it sounds like you are having is your AoEs. Make sure the BLM have their AoE rotations down, they don't need to particularly be focus firing the rooks during the phase when they are up, and keeping up the AoE damage is pretty important to get the bugs as low as possible. Even if all the bugs aren't dead don't sweat it, and just keep trying to get them down. Another big problem might be AoE damage that is being taken when the knights spawn during the 5th phase so make sure your black mages and white mages move out of AoE range.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

1 or 2 spiders most of the time are alive. No tanks ate the POX debuff. The SCH died first then WHM from Knights and Soldiers aggro though now that I think about that, it might have been due to the OT not getting aggro on both right away. Should the healers be in the North West corner to avoid immediate aggro?

The first dread is long dead at the end of wave 3.

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Ya, sounds like the OT (assuming War) just needs some practice with grabbing adds that phase. Generally, I will stand in the center to butch block the one that drops in the middle and spam tomahawk on the south side. Having healers in the North West can buy some extra time and avoid getting interrupted by the adds.

If the SCH is dying first due to threat, then something is wrong with whoever is picking up that Knight and Soldier. Putting the SCH further away isn't going to negate the threat that he/she is building through healing, it'll just make the OT run further to pick up the adds beelining to the SCH. Your OT needs to be faster picking up those adds.

For w2 it is ok to have 1 of the mobs still standing when Dread pops but it should to be dead by the time the Dread absorbs the bugs.

w3 the Dread should be dead before w4 starts.

w4 it is possible to kill all before w5 starts, I typically gather the mobs at center of the room so the MT can catch the Dread for w5 before it moves from pop spot. Make sure the mobs are in shadowflare/flaming arrow circle and have the bard use foe requiem if you need the damage boost for your 2 BLMs.

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Originally Posted by Codek

Ya, sounds like the OT (assuming War) just needs some practice with grabbing adds

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Yeah I agree with Codek. Doesn't really sound like a DPS problem more of an OT problem.

We run with 2 PLDs (not purposefully leaving war. Our group just has better geared PLDs) but our OT does a few flash spams while I take the Dreadnought and there are no problems. Make sure he's using some cool downs in order to reduce healing needed. As the MT I pop a cooldown with the phase 5 dreadnought to reduce enmity issues.

At phase 6 I'll grab both dreadnoughts, make sure I've established hate and then pop Hallowed Ground. The OT uses Hallowed ground at this point as well. WAR could use holmgang if needed.. But I haven't done T4 as WAR so maybe one of the other guys has a better insight?

for your bard.put foes up when the dn pops use it.till about 1k mana. turn off turn on again when next spiders drop. after this phase you should be using invig 2nd.time and he should have abut 500 tp. save all cool downs for dread naught. you can use hawk eye and internal release on first spiders. on final phases use songs as nneed if dps low bv foes if mana low bv mages

Actually, I (WAR) am the MT as I'm more geared than the PLD. He could've Flash a ton to grab aggro instantly on the Knights and Soldiers I guess. It was our first time making it that far and he's not that used to being a tank. It's good to know that it might have just been a few songs and aggro problem.

Our group has dps clear both MT adds and then clear both OT adds.

If everyone other than the DRG uses quelling on that part you should have no issues between overpower and maybe a steel cyclone holding onto hate long enough to start your BB combo. Be sure to split skull sunder and butchers block between the 2 adds.

The 4 adds should be dead by the time all bugs have been eaten.

After MT rook is dead he should go and wait for the DN to drop. OT should be holding the bugs in this phase and move to the center right as the add falls into the center.

Seeing it is the pld he should spam fast blade right before they are about to fall, hit the middle one with a combo'd savage then shield lob the other one. Flash x2 once both are close, then go into normal RoH combo splitting savage and roh between the 2 adds.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Actually, I (WAR) am the MT as I'm more geared than the PLD. He could've Flash a ton to grab aggro instantly on the Knights and Soldiers I guess. It was our first time making it that far and he's not that used to being a tank. It's good to know that it might have just been a few songs and aggro problem.

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Then you probably just need practice. Keep at it!

Also, in our group, our SCH uses selene until the last phase where he switches to Eos. The extra skill/spell speed might make the difference in killing off some of those mobs quicker before the phase shifts.

Both of the Knights and Soldiers need to be dead in Phase 2 before moving on to the Dreadnaught. You said you still had a Knight up in Phase 5 from Phase 2. That sounds like the major problem there. This is how my group usually tackles it:

Phase 1: AOE bugs
Phase 2: MT tanks Knight and Soldier near Phase 3 Dreadnaught spawn area, OT tanks the other set where they drop. Knight and Soldier for MT are killed first so they are free to pick up Dreadnaught, then move onto the other Knight/Soldier. These should be dead or near death as the Dreadnaught come down.
Phase 3: Burn the Dreadnaught. Should be near death or dead by the time Phase 4 starts, else the spiders will run in and heal it.
Phase 4: Gather everything up and AOE it down. Physical DPS should focus on the Rooks while BLMs can just go through AOE rotations.
Phase 5: MT grabs Dreadnaught, OT grabs everything else. Soldier/Knight need to die first, then focus on the Dreadnaught.
Phase 6: MT grabs 2nd Dreadnaught, OT grabs the Knight/Soldier and spiders. DPS burn down the Rook. (don't really need a tank for this) Dreadnaught from Phase 5 dies next, then the Soldier and Knight, feed the spiders to the 2nd Dreadnaught and finish it off.

I'm the only caster DPS in this group by the way, so I typically handle a Soldier on my own and trim the 2nd one down most of the way in Phase 2 with the physical DD helping me near the end. In the later phases I just solo the Soldier. I'm an i89 BLM though so I can handle them alright.

We focus kill both dreads only stopping to lb the rook, at that point OT pops HG and kites while rotating CD's till we kill the last dread. MT Vokes mobs one at a time as we burn it and mage stays on his target.

If the offtank kites properly, he should be able to take no damage from the soldier and knight except when they pull him back in.

When the soldier and knight pop on wave 6, have the OT stands at one of the drop spot, use Fight or Flight as soon as he sees both targets show up on the enemy list (they show up on the enemy list before actually dropping down to the arena). As soon as they drop, flash the one that he is standing on, target the further away one and Shield Lob right away.

After initial aggro, the OT should run in an oval shape at the opposite end of the arena from the two DNs and just use Shield Lob/Tomahawk on the soldier and knight, this should be more than enough to keep hate from both targets. He can flash whenever he is pulled in by their draw-in attack and continue running in the oval loop to kite them.

This will alleviate a lot of healing stress from the healers allow them to focus on the MT who is tanking two DNs. When you are ready to DPS them down, the OT stops running and should have more than enough CDs to tank through without much additional stress on the healers.

Turn 4 is a job check, the kill order is easy to follow but only if everyone is good at their jobs. There should be no overflow of mobs between phases even with a lot of DL geared players, the only exception being the second dread going into the last phase.

If there is then you have a DPS problem, but that is not always the fault of DPS. Either your DPS needs to work on their rotations, or your tanks don't have them locked down fast enough which causes DPS loss. Identify which one of these it is and focus on it, I've heard tanks complain that DPS aren't letting them grab threat but the thing is that DPS has to be burning right from the start, the tank just has to deal with it. You have a WAR tank, if they are losing agro at any point they are not playing optimally. The best WAR tank I know in coil is absurd with agro generation, I can do a buffed double flare with my full i90 gear + allagan weapon and still not rip agro from a single mob.

If it is DPS then a parser would be useful to identify which one is not pulling their weight. All I can say is that your party composition is really strong for turn 4, you have equal physical and magic, really strong aoe dps, and a bard with 2 blm. Phase 4 spiders and rook should melt in record time with that composition, so the fact there are spiders left over then suggests your dps and in particular your black mages aren't playing as well as they can.

We use a slightly different strategy and generally kill it flawlessly. You should have two magic and two physical dps for best effect.

Wave 1 - as you do, AoE the bugs.
Wave 2 - again as you do, but we put our physical dps on the right-hand Knight first, so that they don't have to run across the room to get to the Dreadnought when it spawns, as they'll already be there from killing the second Knight. Magic dps kill Soldier on the left, then Soldier on the right. We have all of our ranged dps stand in the far north edge, between the Knight and Soldier pairs. This will help with the next wave, as they will not get aggro from the bugs and will thus be able to start dps immediately.
Wave 3 - Your healers should be standing in the middle of the room from Wave 2. The bugs will then aggro to them (or your OT), and they will immediately feed the bugs to the DN. From there, it's just a matter of burning the DN down before the next wave spawns.
Wave 4 - Rooks are marked and burst down. We then have enough time to single-target dps 1-2 bugs. AoEing the bugs doesn't really help, as they're not likely going to die before the DN spawns from the next wave. Have one of your dps mark a bug or two for everyone to focus.
Wave 5 - OT picks up the Soldier and Knight and everyone burns the DN. Soldier & Knight are up going into Wave 6.
Wave 6 - The first 20 or so seconds of this wave are absolutely critical. OT must pick up the new Knight. One of your magic dps (preferably a BLM) will grab the new Soldier and begin to kite it. Whoever the bug aggros to must remember to take it to the DN. All other dps will burst down the Rook; this shouldn't take long as it doesn't have much HP. After the Rook is dead, your physical DPS will switch to the new Knight. One of them will pop LB, and then finishing it off is easy. Meanwhile, your remaining magic dps is helping your kiting BLM to kill the new Soldier. Once each pair of dps has finished their respective Knight or Soldier, they can move on to the second mob. Once you kill the first Knight, things are going to get a lot easier, as the damage on your OT won't be nearly as high. Once the kited Soldier is dead, it's pretty much smooth sailing. To finish off, after you kill both Knight and Soldier pairs, you'll all just go stack on the DN's butt and burn it. The stacking helps with heals if you don't kill it before the pulsing AoE starts (though it's entirely possible to do so!).

The fight's very much execution-based but goes very smoothly with a bit of practice. If you're not killing DNs before the next wave, then your dps is not as high as it should be; that will be your main marker for success.

Just as a second opinion, I used to do that strat where you kill the second dread in the 5th phase and kite stuff in the last phase in my old static for a while, we ditched it for the common strat for the following reasons.

1. The main argument we had was that you can't leave 2 dreads up in the final phase if spiders were fed in 4th. However there is no reason why you can't aoe down the spiders in 4th phase, it is entirely possible with 2 casters there is really no excuse except a lack of individual ability. Tell me your composition and I will tell you how to do it.

2. I cannot emphasize how messy that final phase is, especially for the tanks, calling the first 20 seconds critical is an understatement. What has actually happened in this strat is since you took an easy way out on the last 2 phases, you just deferred all the difficulty to the last one and make the job way harder than it has to be.

3. It is not optimal use of DPS, you are neglecting AoE dps in the 4th phase for no good reason then having a caster kite a mob, which kills their dps. I've done this method without hitting the soft enrage timer but if we used the common strat it would of been way faster.

If you cannot do the common method, please don't use this method as it is much harder and the execution required is much tighter. Also generally kill it flawlessly? Does that mean you still wipe sometimes? The common DPS order has a 100% success rate in all the groups I've been in since November. The biggest problem I had with your method was that it is inconsistent because of how flawless execution had to be.

Well according to some members of the boards, if you use the enrage method for Turn 2 then you don't have the experience for Turn 4. Did any of you use enrage method?

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Originally Posted by SarcasmMisser

Also generally kill it flawlessly? Does that mean you still wipe sometimes? The common DPS order has a 100% success rate in all the groups I've been in since November. The biggest problem I had with your method was that it is inconsistent because of how flawless execution had to be.

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We've one shot it since we got our first kill about a week before Christmas (took us about four nights of working on it to get it down). We tried other methods over the course of learning the fight and just kept going back to this one as it was the most stable strat for our group. I just thought I'd offer a suggestion of what we do. >_> Sorry. I'm not up on the current hip-cool things to do, as I don't pug anything.

And I thought id give a second opinion, since we are in the spirit of giving suggestions it's important to canvas views. Also I'm not trying to be nasty but it's just being honest: why can't you aoe down the spiders? Every other group does it, what is the difference here? If strata are chosen to make up for a deficiency in the group then maybe there's a problem just being avoided?

You mean the spiders with the rooks? We never really tried, especially as it didn't seem like there'd be enough time to between when the second rook died and when the new DN spawned (not as long as you get in wave 1, that is). Tank damage was more than manageable with the following DN, so we just did what we do.

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Originally Posted by Onji_T

The reason for getting those bugs down is that, for the brief time the main tank has 2 dreadnaughts they take a lot of damage. And a lot more damage still if the one has been fed.

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In the strat we use, there is no time where the tank has two dreadnaughts, so perhaps that's why not killing the bugs has never been an issue for us.

In phase 2 you should have phys dps finish off that knightbbefore switching to the first dreadnought. Do not let it stay alive. If your dreadnought dps is low then have your dps use hq mega pots for it until you have the gear.

We don't even take a blm into the turn and do fine. One thing is that we all 100% aoe phase 4, including the the whm using holy. We just aim at the rook but don't focus on them. They die before all the spiders just from auto-attack and aoe damage anyway. Brd ballad's up after this phase to get the whm some mp back.

The reason for getting those bugs down is that, for the brief time the main tank has 2 dreadnaughts they take a lot of damage. And a lot more damage still if the one has been fed.