Extreme loss of humanity

X modes,
People need to not bash others for trying to learn something that those people may already know or else this mmo wont last another 6 months, With new players leveling up and getting to this content.
I have done almost everything in game and enjoy most of it to say the least but when it comes down to extreme modes, I do not enjoy.
Reasons,
People expect you to be born with the knowledge of the entire fight.
People want you to watch videos. (The 1st group(s) to beat x modes didn't because there was none out because it was new content and still is and will be for a while)
People are so cool they have to charge for clears and make others feel that they fail.
People leave instantly or blame other players for taking there own personal time away from them like as if they are godlike and everyone else is a problem in there way.
These are my thoughts as a skilled and hard working gamer that would like to be part of a nice community. After all we are all still human, Are we not?

Maybe it's time to rethink trials... being able to warp in the instance and be right in front of the only boss seems to be making everyone impatient.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoulKhan

People want you to watch videos. (The 1st group(s) to beat x modes didn't because there was none out because it was new content and still is and will be for a while)

---

This is the only part I can understand requiring you to do before joining a group. Why not watch a video of what you're about to get into so you can have a basic idea of what to expect? It helps when people are trying to explain the fight if you see the steps visually as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Maybe it's time to rethink trials... being able to warp in the instance and be right in front of the only boss seems to be making everyone impatient.

---

Maybe something like a small dungeon leading to the extreme bosses that have some pattern type of gaming in it to test players and help them learn the pattern / rotation of the boss they are about to encounter, When the new player completes this they will now have access to the x mode boss that they are going to. And can repeat this test before the boss as many times as they wish on a solo instance that is for the player going for it, So that others that know it can just df or pf and make groups and they don't have to do this (before the boss test)
Now that would be cool, I just thought this up :P

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruri

This is the only part I can understand requiring you to do before joining a group. Why not watch a video of what you're about to get into so you can have a basic idea of what to expect? It helps when people are trying to explain the fight if you see the steps visually as well.

---

Yeah that is cool, I mean I know for me while watching videos on things it sometimes doesn't register in my head till I either talk to someone or do it once or twice but very clear and detailed vids help sometimes though not with coil for me. Raidcall was the best thing for me.

There are practice run PF on my server. Their note explained very well: 1st timers welcome, dont expect to clean it but learn the fight/dodge, dont quit after the 1st try plz.
You can join them or start your own.

People don't expect others to be born with the knowledge. It's just extremely easy to get some experience on the fights. There are videos and you can make practice parties. The problem is, it's not enough to just "know the fight", you actually need some gameplay skills (*gasp*). Even when you look for experienced people for farm parties, it often takes 1-3 hours to find people who can actually carry out the battle plan successfully even if they know what to do. People easily get irritated in such parties because the expectations don't match the reality, a quick win they desire.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruri

Why not watch a video

---

It's really something that nothing can be done. Either watch videos, or just accept that when we're late to the scene, we can't expect others to wipe with us and repeat the same mistakes they already made a week ago. They've had their fun, but that's because they got in on the action soon enough. If we want to have the same fun, we'd have to find people who's also late.

I was late to the BC raiding scene and now I simply cannot get even half a group together in our FC of close to 200 active members, to dive in blind (without reading up on anything). There only 2 people interested. There's nothing I can do about it. It did cool me down a lot, though, knowing that yeah, being in a FC doesn't mean you're buddies. Especially a medium to large FC, it's basically just a chat channel for most of our members it seems.

But that's just the nature of MMOs. Late = play catch up. :3

Make the Trials more like a dungeon. That would be a perfect win for FFXIV. \o/

But, nope. Not gonna happen.

Yoshi-P : I'm sorry people, we don't have enough hardwares. http://i.imgur.com/2vm5Vl8.gif

If you're running an alliance party, then I do think you need to have a basic understanding of the dungeon... You're representing your FC and there could have easily been someone better suited for the role.
But honestly? If you're using the duty finder then it's too much to expect every single person to watch videos, read guides, and have an understanding of how to run that dungeon.

I mean, if you want professionalism, then you're going to need to form your own party... Otherwise you need to expect inexperienced in your party when you use a public party finding service.

Oh, I thought this was a thread where you were going to say you were turning into a wolf or something...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ri_ri

Maybe it's time to rethink trials... being able to warp in the instance and be right in front of the only boss seems to be making everyone impatient.

---

A nice comparison would be Sonic 1 for the Genesis/Mega Drive and the Master System. On the MS, we just go have at it with Robotnik, but on the original Genesis version, we had to pass through a whole level.

Moral: SEGA DOES WHAT NINTENDON'T.


I don't think there's any way to make current trials work with a pre-dungeon.

I miss the days when wiki and Youtube weren't crutches MMOs were dependent upon. :-(

But yeah... The 'Fail Once = Kick/Drop' thing is really getting to be one of the most annoying things around.
As I've said before though, this type of game-design promotes viewing other players as merely 'tools' to achieve your goal, so I don't think that's going anywhere. :-\

First of all expecting to oneshot every fight in duty finder is like expecting a bj every morning when you are single and live alone.
Secondly I can understand people getting angry if you join a PF group which only wants experienced people who know all phases or cleared the fight.
Yes some of the requirements are just rude like "screw up once and kick" but nobody is forcing you to join those.

If you want to learn a fight you should check PF from time to time. People usually start practice groups for all kinds of fights and if nobody opens one. Open one yourself.

To OP, you should play offline. Stops Red Phantom invasions.

On a sidenote. Yes problems are increasing. It seems like the better ppl have moved on.

Are we playing Dark Souls now?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Elazu

Are we playing Dark Souls now?

---

You intrested in some repackaged lalafell souls Humanity?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SoulKhan

too long

---

Well i can agree with you in certain Points you mentioned and sure we are all Humans. It may sounds hard now but its my Point of View in such a Case :P

You say that its "wrong" to sell Extreme Mods to People and Show all others how bad they are:
Well its business, the RMTs control the Auction House and the high Housing Prices force People to "steal" Lagers/Noobs/Lazy People their Money out of the Pocket. There are certain more reasons why the Commnuity is like it is today but will try to Keep it short.


The MMOs has changed to a Casual Hell, Single Player aspects and a easy mode Combat Systems with Boss Encounters they only have Attack Pattern Scrips they running up and down all the time. Players (like me but i wouldnt call myself as Godlike or wtf else) learning Patterns by doin a fight 1 or 2 Times or watching a Video 1 or 2 Times, i couldnt care less about People they cant remind things fast like me. Ill mention also here that i am not telling People that they are stealing my time when i joined the Party Finder or Duty Finder because i expect nothing else then wasting Hours with These Groups (rarely i get a Group which wins such an Encounter).

MMO's changed, MMO's Systems changed and so the Community did. This Kind of MMOs doesnt have any socializing aspect anymore its not needed and thats why no1 rly cares about this anymore.

just my 2 Cents

True story.

I kinda carried a group of players that seemed nice in the first place, on Titan EX. All the dpsers were bad, there's no other words, when you realise that on the parser, the tank did more dps than the 3 others in the group.

I'm not beein rude or anything, I passed Titan EX with them and we all moved forward to Ifrit. English isn't really my native language and I'm a sort of slow learner, we went on Ifrit, I didn't really watch a single video and warned them for that matter, they said it was fine, so we went.

We didn't pass and I heard on their ts that i was pretty horrible, comin from a tank that wasn't doin a lot of things, because yeah I was dyin which is normal when you don't know jackshit about a fight.

One day after, I end up with 2 of these said guys in a DF run, get insulted by someone of their guild that was in the said group, but I answered politely by sayin that people gettin carried on Titan, referin to the dpsers not able to do their job better than a tank, shouldn't really talk and let people learn on their rythm, so I died on purpose on eruption after beein flamed by these guys, and got kicked from the party.

This morning, I got kicked by the group I was doin Titan EX after our tank died on purpose because he wouldn't try again to do another attempt after that our dpsers died on absolutely everything you could think of.

I said "man there's the leave button if you want, not gonna kick someone like you that come with one of the worst mindset ever, thats an abuse of the kick function". DF party, I mean, you shouldn't expect all the players to be superstars.

But still, the guy that got kicked was me, and not the tank, while I was tryin to defend people from that kind of douche ^^

That game begin to be filled with complete retards and its pretty sad.


Otherwise, Mmos arent designed to have demanding combat system that would involve skill in any way. The 3 exceptions to this would be Age of Conan, Black Desert Online and possibly Continent of the Ninth Sceal, because combo based for melees, player hitbox detection, and pretty high learnin curve.

dont think that most popular mmos ever involved any skill at all. Awareness =/= skill

Well, I think the realization people are coming to one way or another is that while this game is far better than FFXIV 1.0, it's now progressed into a playable, but conflicting mess of game systems and some seriously bonkers difficulty curves. What really makes this feel odd is that being involved in the previous beta, we really only played through the first thirty or so levels of the game and during those early levels the dye system, crafting, and armory system worked fine. Now we finally have a good number of people reaching the other end and it's like they tossed a good number of systems out the window to support what only can be described as genre typical end game grinding.

The stuff at end game is almost antithetical to the armory system as it stood in the lower leveling bracket because of it's unbending direction towards mastery of a specific role. (I.e. can only get one piece of gear total per week from CT instead of per job, class specific armor via myth tomes at a cap of 450 per week, etc). I thought the point of the armory system was to let a player take up multiple roles, not act solely as a means to pick ones absolutely favorite class in the world and just grind it out.

My advice to you OP is a realisation I came too recently, also in regards in the extreme primals.

We are what? 2 weeks since the patch and therefor the majority (but not all) of the players queing up for the hardest content in the game are not going to be pleasant. They are dedicated at best, elitist and obnoxious at worse. It was the same not long after launch with Titan HM and getting relics, only if you go and join a group now going for their first relic you will generally find a much nicer crowd than you would have back then.

It sounds to me like you're not part of that hardcore crowd, just like me, and so the best thing to do is dial it back a little. I have done so and am having a much better time. Think about EX content in a month or two and I bet you will find your groups much more accommodating.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cotti

I don't think there's any way to make current trials work with a pre-dungeon.

---

There's tons of way to make it work because they did so in most other FF games where you fought Summons with a few exceptions. Hell, even in FFXI if you weren't a summoner and did mini-avatars, you had to go through a respective dungeon to reach the avatar fight because you had to get to crystal that houses the avatar (in most regards) or through certain other dungeons where they were previously released (Einherjar - Odin, Undersea Ruins - Alexander, Pso`Xja - Diabolos and Fullmoon Fountain - Fenrir.)

Previous FF games did even so much as a small puzzle or set of puzzles, very rarely did you just get off your airship, go inside of a cave and fight a main summon lol, especially in the later FF games. So the only way it won't work is if Yoshi keeps developing this game where "accessibility" means nothing to "stress the player."

I'll bite and try to point out the other side of the argument.

First off, if a group is demanding experience and you can't fulfill their requirements, don't join it. It's that simple. Joining a group that clearly states something like "3 deaths = kick", then complaining after you die 3 times and get kicked is like buying bread then complaining it tastes like bread.

"Oh, but then how will I learn the fight?"

Create a group and clearly state this is a group for newcomers that are learning the fight. Trust me, it will get filled fast. It filled when I did for all 3 EX Primals for my initial runs, and helped me get that stress free learning experience. People died to the most stupid shit and no one complained. That's because all them knew it was and agreed to join a learning run.

With that said, let's now also mention why people want experience and some even demand a fail free party: That's because once you practiced enough that you never even get hit before X happens, it's absolutely USELESS to run the fight all over again when the group is wiping before X happens.

Using Titan EX, if you consistently reach adds phase before dying, it makes no sense for you to stay on a group which has players still learning how to dodge the first triple landslide. You're not gaining ANY experience on what you actually require. You can wipe for hours and not get one inch closer to the win, and then you will still wipe groups that actually reach the adds phase because all the time you spent on a weaker group means you never actually practiced that part.

"Oh, but don't you play games for fun?"

Of course we do. Do you think it's fun to lose for hours without you actually never dying once? I don't think it is. You say that people shouldn't complain about losing their time, well, I ask you: Why shouldn't they? It -is- a pure loss of time to keep losing for no fault of their own. Unless the group got some synergy they are actually having fun even during multiple wipes (and this most likely will only happen with groups of friends, ls / fc mates and the like), you are effectively wasting your time away for every time the group dies because someone else ate a landslide.

It makes perfect sense from a personal point of view to only join groups / want people that are close to your experience level.

"But some people have lag"

If it's so bad that it affects them negatively, they might want to reconsider playing an online game on the first place, I'm sorry. Yes, some people have lag especifically only on this game, that can happen, but again, they might want to reconsider playing this one if it's so bad and out of their control. It's not their fault, true, but it's also not other player's fault that YOU have connection issues with FFXIV. It's unfortunate, but you have to understand you are affecting seven other people's fun. Again, I repeat, it's not fun to lose for hours, especially when said losses aren't even your fault.

"Ok, but do people really have to be so agressive and impolite?"

No, of course not. There's a difference between playing to win on a competent group and being an asshole. Being an asshole is bad. Politely setting up your expectations for a group prior to it and removing members that fail without shitting on them is not bad and should not be viewed as bad behaviour.

I'm sorry, but by the time people are at Extreme Modes and Turn 5 and whatnot, you shouldn't be running these things with strangers anymore. You've had plenty of time to find people who work to your play style, who you mesh well with, and can coordinate fights of this caliber with that you can be running things with.

Right here, this is why I cant understand these 5 person FC groups. Its forcing you to pug, pug EX primals at that *shudder*. Join a good FC, work with your fellow players to get that Primal down with a bit of work. And then proceed to farm it. So many people are bitching about these pug groups being a nightmare and I have to ask why are you playing a MMO if you just pug everything?

And OP, if you dont want to watch a video something is wrong with you. I expect everyone to have done that. Dont join a random group and expect them to carry you, and thats what not being prepared is saying. Im to lazy to watch a 10 minute video on youtube, everyone carry me!

What cracks me up are those "the fight is so easy" people. Well sure it is once you have watched a video over and over again. Why not enjoy the game for yourself and try the fight yourself? If you keep failing then maybe turn to a video instead of using it as part of your gameplay experience and then telling someone they are a noob for not watching a video? Seems to me if those players were so good they would not need to watch a video at all. I myself can watch a video but like most do not retain it and need to do it to learn. So I die a lot, at least I'm learning the fight mechanic and not having it handed to me through a video tutorial.

*Reads thread over...

Yes, lets make a game where we are all about a flexible class and craft system, and then when we get to end game toss the entire idea out of the window! Why?! Just... WHY?!

*Continues to pound head into nearby wall.

If I keep pounding my head into a wall, it might eventually make sense!

Anyway, TC. The simplest solution to your problem would probably be farming Humanity on rats in the depths.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruri

This is the only part I can understand requiring you to do before joining a group. Why not watch a video of what you're about to get into so you can have a basic idea of what to expect? It helps when people are trying to explain the fight if you see the steps visually as well.

---

Because this isn't my job, it's a game, it's supposed to be fun. I do my work at well, work, and I'm paying to have fun not to study so I don't disappoint someones egomaniacal gaming precondition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Autumnfire

I'm sorry, but by the time people are at Extreme Modes and Turn 5 and whatnot, you shouldn't be running these things with strangers anymore. You've had plenty of time to find people who work to your play style, who you mesh well with, and can coordinate fights of this caliber with that you can be running things with.

---

Every FC I have been in to date have all passed me up, Maybe its my age or since I am American who the hell knows im just a white guy with tattoos and a temper when messed with, But I enjoy my game and hone my classes very well.

I have noticed through vent and stuff there's lots of Australians for some reason a lot of them do not like white guys from the city.
I am in my 30's and I think the majority of the gaming here is 12yo to 16yo's. I'm not trying to be rude but at this time this is were I don't really care too much for a game that I once loved.

When you do content with friends/fc/ls not knowing is fun because you can learn and improve.

When you do content in df/randoms it's better that everyone knows the fight since you probably won't win or even stand a chance in harder content. You will never see them again most likely so there's no way to build upon your loss and someone always ends up rage quitting. Repeating this process isn't fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Yurikitty

Right here, this is why I cant understand these 5 person FC groups. Its forcing you to pug, pug EX primals at that *shudder*. Join a good FC, work with your fellow players to get that Primal down with a bit of work. And then proceed to farm it. So many people are bitching about these pug groups being a nightmare and I have to ask why are you playing a MMO if you just pug everything?

And OP, if you dont want to watch a video something is wrong with you. I expect everyone to have done that. Dont join a random group and expect them to carry you, and thats what not being prepared is saying. Im to lazy to watch a 10 minute video on youtube, everyone carry me!

---

I agree with you on the FC issue, I disagree on the Video issue. Videos never worked for me so I have always been skeptical, but by and large Titan HM convinced me that watching videos was one of the worst things anyone could do to learn that fight. Instead of coming in and learning the mechanics and working together as a group, you get people who consistently refuse to stack (they didn't do it in the video!), don't coordinate to avoid WOTL (they didn't do it in the video!), don't stop to discuss strategy before rushing in (they didn't do it in the video!). And it is even true, that those videos probably did things differently. Which is why watching them is a huge hindrance. If you are the sort of person who can learn the mechanics from video and still adapt strategy on the fly with a group, you also can learn the mechanics on the fly without watching a video.

Honestly. People use videos as a crutch. Both for themselves, and to avoid explaining to other people. Work together. Find the strategy that works best for your group. Don't just try and copy someone else. And the best way to figure out what works for you is to DO IT. Not watch it. As far as the specific mechanics, usually it can be explained with a few lines clearly in fight if someone still isn't picking up on it themselves.

It's because of the way this game is designed. Which is why you see this same kind of toxic community on similar games like WoW.

The whole game revolves around using an anonymous duty finder and instant-death trial by error mechanics. Which is just a formula for frustration and stress and breeds a_holes. Not to mention all of the deadly traps which can lose a fight for the whole group over the slightest distraction or lag. So it's easy for a player to feel guilty and be singled out.

I think the reason designs like this are so popular is the same reason online chat rooms are. People just love to hide behind their monitor screen while being anonymous to bully and pick on others without consequence.

My best advice (and what I have started doing) is when you see this happening don't stay neutral. Get involved and try to put a stop to it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dale

It's because of the way this game is designed. Which is why you see this same kind of toxic community on similar games like WoW.

The whole game revolves around using an anonymous duty finder and instant-death trial by error mechanics. Which is just a formula for frustration and stress and breeds a_holes. Not to mention all of the deadly traps which can lose a fight for the whole group over the slightest distraction or lag.

---

True, I am on wifi and sometimes during boss fights get a 3 to 5 second lag spike and it only happens once or so, Though once is enough to ruin the fight. That is only on Primal X modes for me with CT there is enough time to recover from lag spikes.