Titan EX - When are best times to tank-swap ?

I have a tank specific question regarding Titan EX. When are the best time for the tank-swaps to occur (when are best times for the off-tank at the time to provoke it off the current tank) ?

I've been told to wait until the Landslide that occurs following the Mountain Buster that puts the second stack on the current tank. Is this the rule of thumb to follow for the entire fight? Or are there specific points during the fight that should occur especially during the post-heart phase ?

Swap at 2 debuffs. Though do take note that Heart phase will take aggro on the person who has tanking Titan before he jumps.

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

Swap at 2 debuffs. Though do take note that Heart phase will take aggro on the person who has tanking Titan before he jumps.

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Right, I know this already lol. I'm looking for more detail here - the 2nd debuff is often followed by a landslide right after, and I've been told it's safer to wait for that landslide to come out first. I'm looking for more detailed information - as in during which Titan moves would be safe to perform the switch.

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Originally Posted by zPanda

as in during which Titan moves would be safe to perform the switch.

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You want to switch during any attack that has a long animation because it affords you and the tank you're provoking off of time to reposition without swinging Titan around like crazy. Landslide is pretty much the best at this because it's part of an extended animation string (Gaol>Upheaval>Landslide) that already involves the MT moving out of tanking position (because of Upheaval).

The times I've done swaps for my runs have been as follows...

PHASE 1
No switch -- first tank holds throughout until first geocrush, regardless of how many stacks, even if it's just 1.

PHASE 2
-Switch immediately as he lands to geocrush.
-Switch immediately after the landslide after he busters for 2nd stack.
-Switch immediately after he busters for 2nd stack during gaol animation.

Unless dps is slow, this should be the last necessary swap of phase 2. MT at the time should only go into heart phase with 1 stack, maybe 2. Unless, somehow, you get to 3 stacks, a switch isn't needed.

HEART PHASE
No switching. Stacks reset very early on into phase.

FINAL PHASE
-Switch any time that's practical and safe before the 3rd buster at the start of the gaols. If the adds are still up at all when Titan turns to start gaol animation, pop them cooldowns and be ready to eat a 3rd stack.
-Depending on when the first switch of the phase happened... if the first switch was at 2, switch immediately after double plumes -- only about 5-6 seconds to effectively make the switch. If the first switch was at 3, switch immediately after landslide/row bombs.
-Hold aggro through end of rotation and into start of next rotation, as tank on him will only have 1 or 2 stacks before they reset.


Doing this method for the final phase has helped my usual co-tank and I have our roles on pure lockdown and cuts out all guesswork during the last phase by having us literally repeat exactly what we just did in the first rotation for the second rotation.

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

FINAL PHASE
-Switch any time that's practical and safe before the 3rd buster at the start of the gaols. If the adds are still up at all when Titan turns to start gaol animation, pop them cooldowns and be ready to eat a 3rd stack.
-Depending on when the first switch of the phase happened... if the first switch was at 2, switch immediately after double plumes -- only about 5-6 seconds to effectively make the switch. If the first switch was at 3, switch immediately after landslide/row bombs.
-Hold aggro through end of rotation and into start of next rotation, as tank on him will only have 1 or 2 stacks before they reset.


Doing this method for the final phase has helped my usual co-tank and I have our roles on pure lockdown and cuts out all guesswork during the last phase by having us literally repeat exactly what we just did in the first rotation for the second rotation.

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Thanks~ Looks like I've been doing what you listed for Phase 1 > Heart Phase as that's what seemed natural to me. Your info on the switches for Final Phase are helpful.

you can do this with 1 tank because the debuffs drop off. If you have enough dps to push phases fairly fast you can force the debuffs to drop off the tank between phases before they get stacked to where its a problem. and using only 1 tank will open up another dps slot to make this go even better.

Another good time to switch is during upheaval. The off tank should agro titan while he's gearing up for upheaval, while the mt tank should dps titan or the goals depending on the dps needs at the time. Titan can't move during upheaval and by the time the next landslide gets thrown out, titan will already be aggroed to the new Main tank and you can agro or debuff titan as needed.

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

PHASE 2
-Switch immediately as he lands to geocrush.
-Switch immediately after the landslide after he busters for 2nd stack.
-Switch immediately after he busters for 2nd stack during gaol animation.

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This last switch is unnecessary here. The stacks should fall off in the heart phase. The extra damage from Titan's auto attacks is pretty insignificant.

Just have that tank hold two stacks and tank it through the heart phase. It also allows for the off tank (preferably Warrior) to stay out of defiance for much longer and contribute more to pre-heart damage.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

This last switch is unnecessary here. The stacks should fall off in the heart phase. The extra damage from Titan's auto attacks is pretty insignificant.

Just have that tank hold two stacks and tank it through the heart phase. It also allows for the off tank (preferably Warrior) to stay out of defiance for much longer and contribute more to pre-heart damage.

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It's not unnecessary if your dps is strong but not overpowering and a third stack comes in before he jumps. Titan EX is all about playing it safe. Safe, safe, safe. Why take a risk when it's so easy not to? Why risk making life harder on the healers just before he jumps when you don't have to?

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Originally Posted by Mailstrum

you can do this with 1 tank because the debuffs drop off. If you have enough dps to push phases fairly fast you can force the debuffs to drop off the tank between phases before they get stacked to where its a problem. and using only 1 tank will open up another dps slot to make this go even better.

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How are the adds handled using a single-tank method? Does the main tank pull 1, both, or none of the adds to the tank spot? Can this method be pulled off successfully still having 2 healers in the group (and 5 DPS) ?

Thanks.

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

It's not unnecessary if your dps is strong but not overpowering and a third stack comes in before he jumps. Titan EX is all about playing it safe. Safe, safe, safe. Why take a risk when it's so easy not to? Why risk making life harder on the healers just before he jumps when you don't have to?

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A third stack (if it happens) is really not that dangerous. You even advocated for a third stack in the final phase, which is even more dangerous because the healers are a lot more busy and tanks are better off using defensive cooldowns in other parts of that phase.

The final phase should be:
-OT Voke after the first set of Plumes.
-MT Voke during Stomps before Double Plumes.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

A third stack (if it happens) is really not that dangerous. You even advocated for a third stack in the final phase, which is even more dangerous because the healers are a lot more busy and tanks are better off using defensive cooldowns in other parts of that phase.

The final phase should be:
-OT Voke after the first set of Plumes.
-MT Voke during Stomps before Double Plumes.

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I didn't advocate a triple stack in the last phase. I advocated being prepared for it as a possibility to always be ready for IF the OT still has an add on him not burned down, or is stuck in the aoe and still trying to make it over, by the time the next buster comes and when a sensible swap time would be should that end up happening.

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Originally Posted by Avalon_Albrook

HEART PHASE
No switching. Stacks reset very early on into phase.

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Just FYI on this part, It is possible for OT to pull aggro form MT during Heart Phase. I have experience a few time myself as OT with Sword Oath.
in 2.1, it is possible for MT with Shield Oath to hold aggro against Sword Oath, but MT need to be on the ball for his/her aggro Gen.

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Originally Posted by Remn

Just FYI on this part, It is possible for OT to pull aggro form MT during Heart Phase. I have experience a few time myself as OT with Sword Oath.
in 2.1, it is possible for MT with Shield Oath to hold aggro against Sword Oath, but MT need to be on the ball for his/her aggro Gen.

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Yeah, Titan's aggro considers the enmity generated on the Heart. This is the biggest reason why I don't like the third tank swap just before the Heart phase.

The OT is gonna want to go max DPS on the Heart. Sword Oath Paladin generates a ton of aggro with Halone combo. If the MT doesn't already have a huge enmity lead on the OT, there is a big risk of the OT pulling aggro from the MT before the Gaols, and getting the entire raid Rock Bustered.

If the OT has to hold back on DPS to prevent this from happening, you're losing valuable Heart DPS. Ideally, you want to break the Heart before the Landslide during the Circle Bombs, just because this Landslide and the subsequent Weight of the Land poses a big risk to the party. Off Tank DPS is pretty important in the Heart phase.

While I've seen this happen in only one party I've done with Titan EX (but I was doing summoner, not tanking) and have heard a couple others like yourself mention it, I've not yet encountered the aggro swap for myself during the heart phase. When I do the switch, it's immediately after the buster during gaol animation, and I only hit Titan the entire time, never the gaol, because 3 dps and the OT have already broken that 4th dps out, so there's a ton of time that goes by where it's just me solidifying my aggro on him. By the time heart phase starts, the gaols happen so quickly and the OT is back to breaking out the people in them while I'm never stopping dps on the heart, and I've never had the problem of aggro loss for myself.

I was MTing once as WAR since we had an less geared PLD. I've had Titan jump immediately after gaoling us and Mountain Bustering. We had to break the rocks while he was in the air. I voked him and he jumped.

When he landed, I couldn't open with my Storm's Eye for extra damage and PLD couldnt use Halone combo at the beginning because of aggro concerns.

From then on, (I usually OT this fight) we had MT pull, two pre-heart tank swaps only. MT keeps Titan and enters heart phase with two stacks. I spend most of the fight out of Defiance, which helps us push Titan's HP and skipping phases.

I think you can make a case for both methods but I really like two pre-heart swaps for this reason. I think there is less risk.