Provoke + Shield Lob (or Tomahawk)?

From my feeling, Shield Lob's enmity level is only about as good as two single small heals, and if I Provoke + Shield Lob, or even follow up with a fast blade and then healer cast an aoe heal or big heal crit, I'm going to lose it forever (I'm too laggy that once a mob starts to move, the next time my melee attack would possibly land is when the mob stops again even on my client I am running ahead of the mob), follow it up with another shield lob rarely grabs the mob back.

Therefore if I can help it, I'd save at least a comboed Savage Blade, or even better Rage of Halone before I need to use provoke, and goes from there to kite/position with shield lob.

Yet from my observation provoke + shield lob is the only thing many Paladins do, and they even trying to convince me that Shield Lob is the only thing that should be used after provoke.

So what is the better way here? Does lag makes that much difference? It's quite puzzling to me.

first i dont lose agro because its a joke now. But when "new" mobs spawn i normaly cast provoke shield lob. Then run to it. I dont wait for it to come to me. i then use a rage of halone. even uncombo you still get the bonus enmity. i have a macro that looks like this

/macroicon "Provoke"
/ac "Provoke" <t>
/ac "Rage of Halone" <t>
/ac "Shield Lob" <t>

This way i can spam provoke if hte target is within range it will provoke then rage of halone if not n range it will cast shield lob. Then i start my normal rotaton on it while using a couple of flashes. also if you do not have to worrie about interrupts with spirits within, thast a high damage skill though no enmity bonus still hits very hard and is OFF GCD. SO a nice Provoke, Sheild lob then spirits within while on GCD followed rage of halone you will not lose the mob.

why do so many people use provoke as first move against newly spawned mobs? I don't get it.. provoke is used to give you a point of enmity above the highest enmity player... if mob has no enmity on anyone at the moment, provoke does absolutely nothing.. now if a mob breaks off, take an extra second, fast blade, tab target provoke savage blade rage of halone.. maybe throw a flash somewhere in there.. in instances, using ultima hm as an example, where you gotta tank swap, as soon as I see 3 stacks pop on other tank, I immediately heavy swing, skull sinder, provoke, butcher's block (I main as war).. that way I don't take the risk of provoke, lose aggro, heavy swing, take aggro, lose aggro, skull sunder, take aggro, lose aggro, butcher's block, done

Ok there is a misconception about provoke here.

First, Provoke does not generate emnity at all, it just places you at the top of the hate list on the mob you just used it. But only barely at the top, so if you do nothing the person second on the hate list will take it from you pretty fast.

So provoke should never be used for pulling, its saved for that mob that got stolen from you, or on boss mechanics that require tank swapping (those seem to be a la mode now :p) like Turn 2 ADS, Extreme Primals, Ultima Hard, etc.

Now when I use provoke on a stray mob, I usually flash it and Rage of Halone it (if close) if far from me, I Provoke then shield lob.

As for the AOEs heals, there is actually little you can do, nothing generates more hate than a AOE Heal, so your white mages should also watch their hate.

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Originally Posted by TurboSol

why do so many people use provoke as first move against newly spawned mobs? I don't get it.. provoke is used to give you a point of enmity above the highest enmity player... if mob has no enmity on anyone at the moment, provoke does absolutely nothing.. now if a mob breaks off, take an extra second, fast blade, tab target provoke savage blade rage of halone.. maybe throw a flash somewhere in there.. in instances, using ultima hm as an example, where you gotta tank swap, as soon as I see 3 stacks pop on other tank, I immediately heavy swing, skull sinder, provoke, butcher's block (I main as war).. that way I don't take the risk of provoke, lose aggro, heavy swing, take aggro, lose aggro, skull sunder, take aggro, lose aggro, butcher's block, done

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becaues if you target the mob you can see the agro meter on it adn you can see its going after the healer the second it spawns. i'm talking like things like teh adds that ads spawns stuff like that. 99% of the time the healer just casted a heal on the Tank or a medica II at that point the add spawns and starts to move its going after the healer... my macro works great for that. i never said about Pulling mobs with provoke but grabbing newly spawned adds.

If you know adds are going to pop (most fights) you can have a RoH combo ready for intial hate.

For add fights like Garuda EX and constantly having to position a sister I use a comboed RoH then flash, then move into my corner.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

If you know adds are going to pop (most fights) you can have a RoH combo ready for intial hate.

For add fights like Garuda EX and constantly having to position a sister I use a comboed RoH then flash, then move into my corner.

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^ This 100%, as a tank learn to precharge your emnity comboes when you know new adds will pop.

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Originally Posted by TurboSol

character limit!!!!!!!

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That is the way to go, even as PLD... in dungeons where the trash are only moving a few feet away, voke, lob, flash as u try to cluster everything up again.

Taking the extra second on a boss to make sure that halone or BB is ready after provoke ensures that it stays on you.

Provoke is only good for tank swapping, for getting hate after losing it (or after being rezzed) and for pulling stuff that is out of tomahawk/shield lob range.
If you already built some hate, provoke will lower your enmity.
If you want to get hate on a fresh new spawn (ie garuda sister) fight or flight + shield lob should be more than enough.

There is a moment between provoke and the skill that follows it where the tank has ONE point of enmity over the rest of the party to work with. 90% of hate losses happen during that moment.

Only use provoke initially in order to pull the Spiny Plume in Garuda EM, or whenever something is out of range of Shield Lob.

Otherwise if you're already fighting: use a comboed Savage Blade + RoH (easy to keep prepared and faster activating - use if you're not certain exactly when the add will spawn) or RoH (trickier to keep prepared) to grab ONE add, or for TWO adds, use Flash immediately after they spawn, then comboed Savage Blade on one add + RoH on the second add. If you're NOT already fighting, use Flash once to grab initial enmity, then begin a fresh RoH combo.

If for some reason you can't get into melee range of where the add is going to spawn, then unfortunately it's down to Provoke (if it's VERY far away) and Shield Lob spam. It's usually wise to just spam Shield lob on the add until you can get into melee range, then use an uncomboed RoH on it ONCE, followed by rotating your RoH combo.

Uncomboed RoH is the single biggest opening enmity spike you can do whenever you don't have time to prepare a combo ahead of time. The reason why you should usually try to use Flash instead is because (i) Flash can generate initial enmity on more than one foe inside of a single GCD and (ii) Flash does not require you to select a target - you can usually hit enemies with it immediately after they appear in the UI's enemy list but before they're actually visible/targetable.

Provoking a newly spawned mob does help in some instances where the mob spawned at the same time a big heal went out from one of your healers

Sometimes preloading your combo doesn't work out

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Originally Posted by Remmadar

Provoking a newly spawned mob does help in some instances where the mob spawned at the same time a big heal went out from one of your healers

Sometimes preloading your combo doesn't work out

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In that case you healer screwed up. Most healers know not to toss out AoE heals as adds pop.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

If you already built some hate, provoke will lower your enmity.

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No, it won't. It will provide 1 more enmity than you had when you used it. It places you at highest enmity +1, and, if you're currently tanking, that means that you'll have highest enmity.

Don't rely on shield lob/provoke. Save Spirits Within for moments like this. A combed savage blade saving a rage of halone, WHM pull agro, provoke use rage of halone + spirits within = your mob forever.

Shield lob is only good as an opener for pulling, that is basically all. It takes a matter of 500 damage or 1k healing to pull agro off a voke/lob. It takes around 1.8k dmg and 3.6k healing to pull agro off voke +spirits + a saved RoH.

Also this is an issue with you not managing your agro meters between each mob.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

No, it won't. It will provide 1 more enmity than you had when you used it. It places you at highest enmity +1, and, if you're currently tanking, that means that you'll have highest enmity.

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I have the feeling provoke "ignores" yourself and if you are on the top of the hate list it will just put you 1 point of hate over the second on the list.
Hope my english makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

I have the feeling provoke "ignores" yourself and if you are on the top of the hate list it will just put you 1 point of hate over the second on the list.
Hope my english makes sense.

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Feelings don't matter. What matters is empirical evidence. You can test this yourself, or you can just accept my word (and that of Kitru) that Provoke will not lower your threat.

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Originally Posted by Maqaqa

I have the feeling provoke "ignores" yourself and if you are on the top of the hate list it will just put you 1 point of hate over the second on the list.
Hope my english makes sense.

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Definitely doesn't lower your hate. You can test it in 1 minute.