Overmeded vanya or royal chest?

I’ve been operating under the assumption that the extra 5 mind on the royal chest doesn’t outweigh the 26 crit and 18 det on my vanya, but a couple people in my fc/ls don’t agree. So, I figured I’d ask the healer forums what the general consensus is.

I would say use vanya until you get your SCH myth chest. You can only get one piece of ct loot and its probably better to get the gloves or boots unless you have coil gear. If the chest is the last piece you even remotely need from ct that's whatever.

The fact is that losing 5 mind from not upgrading is partially offset by the det on the vayna, and the crit is much better than spell speed for you as a SCH.

The other thing to consider is the fairy benefits more from secondary stats than you, so the crit and det loss may affect her more if you get the royal chest.

*edit* LOL and you are a whm. Nvm then. Your main class said arcanist.

I would probably take the royal chest then. Its a sidegrade but as a whm I always want the largest increase to my raw healing potency.

So that's another factor. I have both whm/sch, and I use the same gear set for both. Not ideal, but they're my backup chars and all my myth is still going into my smn, so it's the best I can do. I've been upgrading my dl pieces to ct pieces every week since those are clear upgrades, but last night I passed on a couple chests because I didn't think it was an upgrade over my vanya for either my sch or whm.

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Originally Posted by horaiyo

So that's another factor. I have both whm/sch, and I use the same gear set for both. Not ideal, but they're my backup chars and all my myth is still going into my smn, so it's the best I can do. I've been upgrading my dl pieces to ct pieces every week since those are clear upgrades, but last night I passed on a couple chests because I didn't think it was an upgrade over my vanya for either my sch or whm.

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I would consider getting the royal boots first, its pie/crit and even for the whm it is an upgrade over darklight and for the sch its very good.

Royal set over crafted i70. Secondary stats have less "weight" than primary stats, especially when the primary boost is over 2 or 3 points. 5 points of Mind is a lot, and well worth it IMO.

Hm, I was going by the dps weighting for crit/det, but if it’s that much different for healers then I guess I should’ve taken one of those two healer vests that dropped yesterday.

Never sacrifice main stat for secondaries, unless it's an obscene amount that you most likely can't even get.

I'm using the royal robe on my sch because it looks plain awesome. Thankfully it's just my secondary class.

I'm about to disagree with everyone in this thread. For this reason, I will be providing actual numbers. An overmelded HQ Vanya is superior to a Royal Vest.

Please refer to http://valk.dancing-mad.com/methodology/ for all calculations used.

First, let us go over the gains and losses of a Royal Vest vs. an overmelded HQ Vanya:

Gains from Royal Vest
5 MND
3 Spell Speed

Losses from overmelded HQ Vanya
27 Critical Hit Rate
18 Determination

A loss of 27 Critical Hit Rate is a loss of 1.88% chance to critically heal. This is a large factor. Thus, let us now take a look at the average heal with both armors with critical heals averaged in:

Crit Adjusted Heal (Royal Vest)
945.81

Crit Adjusted Heal (overmelded HQ Vanya)
952.23

Hence, we come to our conclusion. An overmelded HQ Vanya gives an increase of 10.57 absolute healing or a 0.67% increase to healing.

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Originally Posted by Finals

Character Limit

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Except you cannot rely on crits for healing. At all. Sure, your overall HPS is increased over a long period of healing...but when you need to heal something in a tight spot, bigger heals is always better than hoping to get a crit (which is why I get annoyed at some SCH insisting crit is the best stat, no exceptions. Yeah, Adlo can give a double shield if it crits...but relying on that to keep your tank safe is a great way to kill your tank)

I don't believe you're understanding the math. The critical chance will be a constant, meaning that each time you cast, you have a x% chance to crit. This means that you have a constant chance to crit each cast. Therefore, there is no relying on crits. This is constant. This outweighs, along with 18 Determination, any benefit 5 MND gives. You cannot dispute any of this math as this accounts for all elements (i.e refer to methodology for more information). If you can provide numbers to prove otherwise, I will believe you.

If we take out crit from the calculation, we gain a ~2 HP per heal increase from a Royal Vest. However, this additional 1.88% crit per cast actually outweighs this ~2 HP per heal increase.

You can have a 90% crit rate, but try to save your tank and that 10% doesn't happen, your tank dies. This can and usually does end the run unless the other tank is somehow unscathed. Sch should aim for crit as a secondary because they get a large benefit from a crit. If its for a whm, I can't in good conscience recommend crit over raw det for consistent healing. Your calculations also don't take into account that a crit can cause over healing, making your actual hp/time much worse. If you are only going to heal when you think a crit won't overheal, then I feel bad for your tank because hes in the red zone way too often and can't make any mistakes.

However, MND > all secondaries for both classes.

This area of the game has puzzled me since i cant tell what is better, the best way is if i test both. However since the myth robe which i will probably be getting next reset has more defense since its i90 i may go with that. Accessories i look a bit differnetly since they all offer the same defense, i tried the i90 ifrit drop and my melded, and i felt more comfortable with the melded, so im currently staying with that.

If you're getting the Myth chest soon anyway, I don't think it really matters that much. You already have the Vanya, just keep wearing it (Disclaimer: this is what I'm doing, and nobody has complained to me about it). The only thing is, the Vanya is keeping down your average ilevel, so if you don't have a high enough average ilevel to join the party finder groups you want, and it'll be a couple of weeks before you get your i90 piece to replace the Vanya, the Royal piece might be a decent stopgap.

As for me personally, I'm buying the Myth chest on Monday, and I did swap my Vanya Hat for the Royal Crown, since I was planning on saving the fugly hat for my final purchase.

i dont care about ilvl's what i feel is better i will wear. Just cause ill be wearing myth doesnt mean ill chuck out my vanya, same as other gear, i will hold on just incase i need another gear set.

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Originally Posted by Mskala

You can have a 90% crit rate, but try to save your tank and that 10% doesn't happen, your tank dies. This can and usually does end the run unless the other tank is somehow unscathed. Sch should aim for crit as a secondary because they get a large benefit from a crit. If its for a whm, I can't in good conscience recommend crit over raw det for consistent healing. Your calculations also don't take into account that a crit can cause over healing, making your actual hp/time much worse. If you are only going to heal when you think a crit won't overheal, then I feel bad for your tank because hes in the red zone way too often and can't make any mistakes.

However, MND > all secondaries for both classes.

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While your sentiment is correct, the probability of this occurring is almost 0 (namely 1-((1-percent crit)^(number of casts)). However, the initial question was is 5 MND better than a loss of 18 Determination and 27 Critical. In this case, +18 Determination and +27 Critical is better than +5MND. The game is realized upon mathematics, thus forgoing calculations for belief is wrong. If you have 90% crit, you'll actually crit 90% of the time over the course of a long fight. The argument that you'll never crit with crit is ridiculous.

Also, the argument isn't about whether 1 MND is better than 1 crit. This is obviously false. Each stat has a weight and we must note these in order to min/max our character if that is what we wish to do.

To give a straight up and easy answer to the OP - ... it depends. Sorry :P

As a Scholar, it's not really optimal because it doesn't have any Crit. That being said, as a Scholar myself, I grew SO sick of the look of the Vanya chest that I said screw it, and got the Royal Vest. And it looks great. And I'm still a great healer with it on. So only worry about it if you have the money for a crap ton of meld chances and care about min/maxing. If not, chances are for the average person, you'd only get 2-3 crit melds anyways, which is most likely less than 20 crit.

For pants though, I couldn't bring myself to use the Royal ones over my Darklight. A straight up 27 crit loss after losing 18 crit on my chest piece was just way too much for me.

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Originally Posted by Finals

While your sentiment is correct, the probability of this occurring is almost 0 (namely 1-((1-percent crit)^(number of casts)). However, the initial question was is 5 MND better than a loss of 18 Determination and 27 Critical. In this case, +18 Determination and +27 Critical is better than +5MND. The game is realized upon mathematics, thus forgoing calculations for belief is wrong. If you have 90% crit, you'll actually crit 90% of the time over the course of a long fight. The argument that you'll never crit with crit is ridiculous.

Also, the argument isn't about whether 1 MND is better than 1 crit. This is obviously false. Each stat has a weight and we must note these in order to min/max our character if that is what we wish to do.

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And by the same token, 10% is still 10%. It only takes one non-crit heal when you needed one to end the run. Over a long period of time, yes, you will see average. But many fights have luls in healing in between burst healing phases. This tradeoff is less than a 2% crit rate. He needs a lot more crit on the rest of his gear to make that any kind of reliable. The det makes it more appealing, but the 5 mnd will outdo that.

To me, your analogy makes it sound like freecure is something to be relied on instead of something that is a nice upside.

If he cares more about his sch than whm, I would keep the crit only because they function so well with it, and he would have other crit gear to make it a worthwhile gain.
Hp/time only matters if you do nothing but heal for a length of time. I'm all for math, but you have to also use it in context.

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Originally Posted by Mskala

And by the same token, 10% is still 10%. It only takes one non-crit heal when you needed one to end the run. Over a long period of time, yes, you will see average. But many fights have luls in healing in between burst healing phases. This tradeoff is less than a 2% crit rate. He needs a lot more crit on the rest of his gear to make that any kind of reliable. The det makes it more appealing, but the 5 mnd will outdo that.

Hp/time only matters if you do nothing but heal for a length of time. I'm all for math, but you have to also use it in context.

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The thing you still aren't grasping is that 5 MND is not better than 18 Determination and 27 Critical Hit Rate. We see a roughly 2 Det = 1 MND trade off at DL levels and less at higher ilvs. Thus, it's not only the Critical Hit Rate that makes HQ Vanya almost the same as a Royal Vest, but also Determination.

Also, by getting Critical Hit Rate instead of Determination you are in no way gimping your heals. With gear of equal ilv, MND values are the same. Hence, you will still be healing on average (at ilv 80+) for the same in Determination or Critical Hit Rate due to the diminishing values of Determination and the linear nature of Critical Hit Rate. Hence, the critical heals are actually more beneficial, even if occurring 1/100 heals.

The formula for a Cure I is : (potency/300) x [(MD x (0.01123 x MND + 0.0021 x DTR + 0.28) + 0.242 x MND + 0.1 x DTR

Hence, MND and Determination have diminishing returns. Here, as MND and Determination increase, their contribution decreases.

Where as Crit Chance % = 0.0693 x CRT – 18.486 making it linear. This means that each point of Critical Hit Rate = 0.0693 critical hit chance.

10 years of MMO raiding later

People still don't understand how to interpret heals per second

Personally, I've always went with crit is useless for healers, unless you have secondary effects from crits or the other stats are just bad in comparison; it's just too unreliable. The extra HPS from crit doesn't matter at all if it's all overhealing.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

Personally, I've always went with crit is useless for healers, unless you have secondary effects from crits or the other stats are just bad in comparison; it's just too unreliable. The extra HPS from crit doesn't matter at all if it's all overhealing.

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This about sums it up. Healing consistency versus over healing throughput.