MNK vs SMN ?

Hello All,

50 WAR/PLD here and I'm looking for some advice on which class I should level next.

I wanted to level a Physical & Magic DPS Class so I narrowed my choices down to MNK and SMN. Now I'm having a tough time deciding between the two.


MNKs appeal to me because:
-They look fun to play.
-They look versatile.
-Their animations look sick along with their DPS.

Although thats great, I have heard that its a slow build up to DPS, and Fights with many disconnects can be frustrating to keep Grease Lightning up. I've also heard that this hurts them via pvp as it sucks trying to build Grease Lightning on a moving target. And lets not forget that this is the most position based class.

SMN appeal to because:
- Has most Dots/Debuffs on 1 class (Correct me if I'm wrong)
- The Most Mobile Magic DPS Class.
- That MP
- Best Magic Class to Solo with. (Could be wrong)
- Comes with Free Healer (SCH if you unlock it)

And for SMN, I've heard horror stories with regard to pet management. And since they are casters their abilities can be interupted. Anything else I should know about ?

Ultimately, If I like both classes, I will most likely level them both to 50 but I wanted to see what the community thinks. What should i consider before leveling one or the other ? What thing did you wish you knew about MNK/SMN. Which has a higher Skill Cap ? Which has higher DPS if used to max potential ?

If your latency is good go monk, if it's bad go smn.

it depends on your crews need, For being 2nd on my 1st team coil alt, I get to go anytime, but we run 2 bard,drg, BLM, so i either fill in for one of the rangers. While must MNK push those numbers out. its makes a different while I don't have to stop damaging a target.

Truth be told, do you like standing there in 1 spot pushing the same five buttons over and over, or does that bore you and you like moving to tricky spots while a noob tank spins him out of your position.

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Originally Posted by RegentP

or does that bore you and you like moving to tricky spots while a noob tank spins him out of your position.

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lol yea thats something I notice in disadvantage of MNK. Its hard to capitalize on your DPS if Tank has to move to avoid AOE or Big Cone moves. Hard to predict what tank will do.

So SMN rotation is really only 5 buttons ? I would think it would be more with all their dots and debuffs

For me smn looks like more fun than it actually is. I find the job annoying to play.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

For me smn looks like more fun than it actually is. I find the job annoying to play.

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I notice your a 50 PUG also. What do you like about MNK and SMN. Which class do you play more and why.

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

I notice your a 50 PUG also. What do you like about MNK and SMN. Which class do you play more and why.

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Mnk is my main and I play it more than any other job. Mnk is very fast with lots of movement and I really enjoy that but many don't. From what I have seen its the movement that causes most people to really bad at monk or quit playing it.

Smn sounds and looks really fun to me... but playing it at 50 for a few hours to get my relic was enough for me. Its a very powerful job but I just don't like it.

Thanks for the Feed back Rochetm. So far the score is MNK:2 SMN:0. Where are all my SMN advocates at ?

Monk has many factors to keep in mind if you want to maximize your output.
Your own buffs, debuffs and dots, you'll have to be active constantly.

As Rochetm sais, that is not for everyone. For me, I really enjoy this part of the job.

I guess that makes it MNK 3, but considering that I have not played SMN yet I'm not sure if you want to count my vote. :)

SMN is my main and it's very complicated job to play, but it's very fun and rewarding if played optimally. If you like playing in a style where your rotation and play style WILL change every endgame encounter, and in some cases it will even change every phase (IE Turn 5) then you will enjoy SMN. SMN can also be very versatile with the options of pets, and in the future will have even more options to be versatile.

I've tanked everything up to Coil on SMN just for fun and sometimes I play more oriented toward a support role with mid-combat Resurrection, Crowd Control actions, and DMG Mitigation actions. SMN is almost a jack-of-all-trades if you want to play that way, but if you just want to push max DPS 100% of the time you might find the class annoying at some points of the game.

I've heard that SMN are BEST DPS Classes in game and i've seens videos of SMN with over 400dps tho.... Although thats debateable if they are top, Its still has be harder for MNk to reach those type of numbers since they rely on Grease Lightning and Position right ? Outside of Tank and Spank fights, You would think in most fights SMN will have more dps right ? Or am I missing something ?

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

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Such as Garuda EX, you can't AOE your DOTs 90% of the fight or you will kill spiny, if you want to DOT both Chirada and Suparna then you have to apply them to Suparna first otherwise by the time you DOT Chirada then Suparna disappears with Garuda and you have to wait. Half the time I just roll on BRD because I can hit high numbers w/o all the work.

But when it comes to 2-4 mobs SMN is king because you can literally apply 75%+ of your single target DPS as AOE.

Also, a lot of people complain about SMN not being able to burst DPS, and sometimes SMN is excluded from party for this reason. However if the burst is needed on an add that pops beside a boss then the SMN has one of the best (if not the very best) burst mechanic in the game. Which is to apply your DOTs just before an add pops, AOE your DOTs instantly as it pops and Fester.

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Originally Posted by OmegaNovaios

SMN is almost a jack-of-all-trades if you want to play that way, but if you just want to push max DPS 100% of the time you might find the class annoying at some points of the game.

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Yea and thats what appeals to me about SMN is that they can Tank, Heal and DPS. Very Versatile. Does using Marco's make SMN easier to play ?

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Originally Posted by OmegaSinX

Yea and thats what appeals to me about SMN is that they can Tank, Heal and DPS. Very Versatile. Does using Marco's make SMN easier to play ?

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I personally don't use any macros on SMN at all, and this is coming from a person that macros the hell out of BRD. I haven't really looked into that much, but it just doesn't seem like you can cut out very much of your work w/o using /wait commands which IMO isn't playing SMN optimally.

Not even pet Macro's ?

You can make Summon macros with Swiftcast > Summon or an Enkindle Macro with Rouse > Spur > Enkindle, but other than I can't think of a useful macro for pets. Letting your pet do it's own thing is a good way to start out, but if you really want to push SMN you will have to micromanage each pet for both DPS as well as utility, but that's the #1 reason why I play SMN. If you just want a particular pet's action on your hotbar then you can drag that action from the action menu.

Thanks for the Tip.

Score: MNK 3, SMN 1.

I'd really like more feedback from some Hardcore SMN to get more insight from SMN PoV. Would also appreciate more feedback from players who play both.

I don't have either of them leveled, but another thin you should consider is where you will be n the fight.

As a melee, you lose dps not only when the tank moves, but when the mob uses an AOE and you have to stop to dodge it. Smn gets full dps from all sides, and has several of its abilities instant cast, meaning you can use them even while dodging something.

That, and if you have a bad tank, your mnk will suck and it won't even be your fault.

Well, I'll be your hardcore SMN advocate. I got into the game a few months ago because a friend was playing. Initially, I was planning to roll a WHM, not knowing at the time you could switch classes so easily. Before I did though, my friend had just met a surprisingly capable SMN who really impressed him, and his FC at the time was lacking in magical DPS, so he told me to roll SMN. So I did.

A few months later, I'm just now getting aroung to leveling WHM, but I wouldn't want to play any other DPS class. I haven't played any other classes, but being in an end-game-content FC with many coils groups, I get the opportunity to run with a lot of different people on a lot of different content. Everything in the end-game atm (Coils, Extreme Primals) is my domain. I haven't met anyone who can consistently out-DPS me, and that is using log parsers that intentionally do not give me any credit for DoT crit damage, Contagion duration or Shadow Flare ticks. I'm coming out ahead, all that considered, and that makes me happy. Because in reality, I'm coming out even further ahead.

SMN, like someone mentioned earlier, is way more complicated than a 5 button rotation, and may well be the reason they didn't like the class. I very frequently use at least 22 (counting off the top of my head) different skills, and find there is a lot of strategic use of resources (MP, aetherflow charges) that make me _think_ about what I'm going to do, before I have to do it. To me, it is a very engaging class. It has a lot of good mobility and allows me to keep my DPS up even when I'm having to dodge mechanics.

Then you have the pet management, which varies from fight to fight. Sometimes you can just put it on Obey and leave it alone until need need Aerial Blast or Contagion. Sometimes you have to move it around a lot to dodge big damage mechanics that would eventually kill it. Sometimes you need to move it around a lot to enable your group to survive mechanics, and it can be an integral part of the group in those times.

Then you have the hardest fight in the game (Twintania, Binding Coils Turn 5) which is more or less built to cater to all of SMN's strengths, where we far and away excel over other classes.

I won't really even consider playing another DPS class at this point, that's how much I enjoy playing SMN.

When you try PvP Lv.50, they tell you kill SMN first.

:)

Another SMN here, let me say that I LOVE this class for all the reasons listed. It's a very busy job that has you always thinking because of Dot timers. The ability to apply Dots, contagion, bane and Fester is glorious. Using Engineer plus Rouse and Spur for solid AOE damage is icing on the cake. The only real weakness IMO is burst DPS, Fester is just not enough considering how long it takes to set up. You won't always have adds pop right next to the boss to apply bane either. Overall though I am VERY pleased with SMN and that includes my floating jello Egi's :D

Meant Enkindle, not engineer stupid auto spell lol.

Ive been smn since launch and love it. As for macros I use one to place dots so I can switch to a dif hotbar to use an int potion to boost before I use fester and bane getting me mid to high 1200s on crits. Its very versatile we normally run dungeons with 3 dps with me tanking the hard bosses. I can pull hate from most tanks and then lock them down till they have time to pick them back up. Also smn is a life saver with eye for eye and battle rez. And if need be we can heal good enough to keep the tank up in dungeons long enough for a healer to recover from rez. Also we never need ballads unless we are ignoring our aethers.

for mnk im working on mine right now. Only at 33 but it is fun. As of right now I wouldnt give up smn for it.

Also one thing you need to remember is that with smn you should make sure you lock on target before casting cause you get alot of interupts if the taget moves alot. Seems it happens when the targets name leaves the screen.

To me SMN > all I have been a hardcore smn from the get go and in ffxi ran a smn ls for years. I love the job, I think it is fun and personally don't usea macro for it. If used correctly it is king of dps and can melt all the faces. SMN4LYF

I had the same decision to make. I was already an i90 SCH who's done all content and I wanted either MNK or SMN. I ended up gearing both and now MNK is my main. They are both extremely fun classes. MNK I find better because you have to manage your skills/buffs bette. Makes it more interesting

Summoner, hands down, mnks are fairly useless in pvp

I play MNK main and only started trying out SMN recently.

I can talk about MNKs easily. I really like their playstyle. Though movement may seem like a hinderance from the outside, I think it's a lot of fun. It's a third dimensional sort of combat. There's a lot of rhythm to it as well since the gameplay lends itself to muscle memory.
Not to mention the damage is pretty amazing (top), but I'd be playing it even if it wasn't.

SMN feels like the caster equivalent to MNK. I've played BLM a lot but I'm only now trying SMN out. SMN is like MNK in that it has ramp up and it's really about sustained single target.
However, SMN has much better options for AoE than MNK. Not to mention being ranged feels a lot safer if you want to keep up dps.
I doubt SMN dps can beat MNK dps.
Particularly because fights that are bad to SMNs are bad to MNKs, and fights that are good to SMN are good to MNKs.
The notable exception is, again, aoe. SMNs are great at cleave and manage any overall aoe better than a MNK.

SMN utility -
Eye for an Eye (amazing for everybody who gets it, shorter cd for SMN/SCH)
Virus (nerfed the uptime, but still a great ability. SMN reduces int/mind(?) as well)
Instant Res (of course, you shouldn't want to use this but things happen. SMNs can save healers mana and concentration)
5% slow Shadow Flare (Not sure the extent this works on bosses, but it's pretty great. It seems to have no diminishing returns as it's permanent once the mob stays in.)

MNK utility -
Mantra (cross class version sucks, 20% healing increased can be great)
-10% INT on Enemy via Dragon Kick (permanent debuff since you keep it up for your rotation).
Silence (we have one, but you should never really ask the MNK to do it unless it's really no other choice. Huge TP drain, very clunky to use. Though I have done ADS with it.)

The SMN utility seems like more but the Dragon Kick debuff being fairly permanent can't be underestimated.
Of course, it stacks with virus and eye for an eye. There's also nuances like chaining Eye for an Eye if your other party members have it.

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

I doubt SMN dps can beat MNK dps.
Particularly because fights that are bad to SMNs are bad to MNKs, and fights that are good to SMN are good to MNKs.

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For example?

There is one situation where I can expect a MNK to be able to match SMN dps, and that is a 'pure stand-up DPS' fight, i.e. one where you literally just stand in place and beat the crap out of something until it dies. These situations, neither MNK nor SMN has to do anything but keep spitting out the optimal skill rotation until the target is dead. You get maxed out Greased Lightning uptime, and can keep on punching.

The fights that cater more to SMN and less to MNK, that are not AoE encounters, are those where you are forced to move off target. Extreme Titan is a good example. Need to pull back to avoid bombs. Need to run away to dodge plumes. Get Gaol'd and lose stacks. Basically, a fight where MNK has to pull off of the target and can potentially lose GL stacks. When a SMN pulls back to avoid bombs, they keep shooting from range, DoTs keep ticking. Dodging plumes? Ruin II/Fester/Bio still see some action and DoTs keep ticking. Get Gaol'd? DoTs keep ticking, Garuda keeps shooting.

The benefit of SMN is that even while dealing with mechanics, you have a very large chunk of damage that keeps going. The same mechanics that can cause MNK GL stacks to fall off, the SMN is still dealing like 80%+ of their damage.

It basically comes down to 1 simple thing: Can MNK keep GL stacks 100% of the time? If yes, then they can win the DPS war. If not? They can lose it. I say can, of course, because not all players are equal in skill.

There's no such thing as a bad SMN fight. That is why SMN is the best dps class in the game.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

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Originally Posted by Seobit

There's no such thing as a bad SMN fight. That is why SMN is the best dps class in the game.

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I suppose that's true. I didn't really take into account that during phase shifts for things like the primals, dots still tick and you don't really have to restart from scratch.
Not to mention the ramp-up for SMN being shorter.

I have noticed some fights where adds might spawn outside of bane range (some CT bombs and titan jails). In these cases, the MNK can keep GL3 while the SMN has to reapply all the dots which is not very helpful when you want to kill it quicker than that.
Those cases seem very specific though, so SMNs are pretty strong and versatile regardless.

I don't believe that a MNK needs 100% GL3 to match a SMN though, but a fairly high uptime.
Also Turn 2, for example, isn't exactly a training dummy fight but you should keep up GL3 the whole time and pretty much beat anyone else.
I'd have rated SMN ahead of MNK for most of end game before 2.1.
The MNK buffs were very heavy handed afterwards and SMN got nerfed as well. I would say the primals do favour SMN though.

Bane has ridiculous range now with the 2.1 buff.

The only time I lose GL3 on Titan Extreme is when he jumps to the heart phase. The other jump you can run in and continue your stances without losing it. And you should be still hitting skills on titan/titan's pets while dodging mechanics.

Don't you lose stacks whenever you get jailed?

Eh, sorry I forgot about that too. But dodging does not interrupt any of your combos whatsoever besides maybe doing a True Strike to a flank every once in a while while dodging a plume or something. Titan is the best fight for Monk out of the new primals.

Wow, SMN have taken over this forum since I last checked it :P. Since I've posted this, I have started to level both class evenly. And to my surprise, acn seems more fun than I thought it would be, even at low levels. I initially came in leaning more to MNK, but after reading alot of your post and actually testing acn out, I think I more intersted to see where SMN road will lead. I see alot of potential for it.

I sense much hate and need for power in him, come join us the darkside awaits. Let loose your anger and allow us to show you the way of melting of all faces.

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Originally Posted by Aphrini

I sense much hate and need for power in him, come join us the darkside awaits. Let loose your anger and allow us to show you the way of melting of all faces.

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puhahaha. Funny.

I think what sold me was that I solo'd a mob 7 levels higher than me with acn (several times), and tried the same thing with pug and got my *** handed to me.

I'm actually surprise of how much im liking acn since I usually roll physical damage classses in pass MMO's. ACN playstyle is totally new to me but I'm liking it so far.


Anyone know any good SMN resources ?

Comin from some1 whos a blm/whm/sch.

I tried smn out since I leveld sch to 50. Now I love it. the DPS I do is retarded (in a good way of course) and Im only going off of hate meter, not takin into account the pet since I dont have a parser/dont have it on pc. Gotta move a lot? No worries! DoT that b*tch and move all you want. Pop a ruin 2 if you feelin good! If SE lets me summon Shiva then I will abandon blm xD I already switched my bonus att over to smn after out dpsin peeps when i had 30 mnd lol

Got mnk to lvl 33 so far and man....the animations are so cool. Outside of that the speed at which you atk makes everything else seem slow as hell (which can be good in a sense that you wont fumble over rotations of other classes i guess). I still have to get used to the rotation and when to apply ToD. Right now if i mess up a DoT I go full retard (and we all know the saying xD). And im not even at GL3 yet.

I like em both man.