Newbie PvPers aren't gonna' be having fun down the line...

As the thread title says. Anyone wishing to get their feet wet in the PvP scene in let's say about 2 months or so (Maybe even less) are going to have a very painful time grinding against players with decked out 90 gear.

The suggestive fix would be a matchmaking system, but I'm sure there are other ideas that may be just as good or better.

This happens in every MMO with PvP gear after the initial rush. That's why those who get in on it early have the advantage, and why many push themselves to keep up just because they know this is coming eventually.

It's essentially a lose/lose situation. If they don't introduce some type of rank/elo system, it will be extremely frustrating for new players. If they do introduce a matchmaking system, the high rated players will have insufferable queue times.

I too get fedup of facing PVP 70 GEARED when I am in that crafted garb.

That's why people are cashing in on the SCH/BLM/SMN team queues, and abusing the jumping issue while they can. Any early advantage so they can rush to rank 30 and start farming ilvl90 PvP gear, and hold the advantage later for easy wins against undergeared players.

To be honest it's hard to tell how to do this properly without resorting to adding in a battlegrounds to mix and match skills imho.

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Originally Posted by Eriatarka12

This happens in every MMO with PvP gear after the initial rush. That's why those who get in on it early have the advantage, and why many push themselves to keep up just because they know this is coming eventually.

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Pretty much. The prospect of queuing up for PVP as a healer without the critical pvp skills needed to survive, against fully geared opponents with an HP pool of your standard turn 5 coil group, WITH added 30%~ damage and mitigation, sounded like complete and utter garbage. So I geared myself up early and learned the ropes while matches weren't as laughably unbalanced. You could argue that players can queue up for level 30/40 matches until they're geared, but they won't properly learn how to play their character in PVP due to the smaller skillset. Shit, at level 30, a scholar won't even have a debuff removal skill, which is super important for clearing healing and MS debuffs.

All i gotta say is, I like Fresh Meat. If the noobs wanna get into pvp, let them do the lvl 30 and 40. if they step into lvl 50 wolves den, im gonna eat em up.

One of the main issues I have noticed is the giant leap between winning and losing as far as points rewarded. If playing matches is the only way to get geared up the reward needs to be the same win or lose. Otherwise people who win too often not only will be better players but better geared. I'm a little surprised with all the stuff they added to gear for PvE they made such an over site in PvP.

Can't wait for all the try hards to post PVP montage videos to "let the bodies hit the floor" while playing against rank 1-10 people with none of the abilities unlocked while also queuing 3 person groups.

Gateing PVP through those abilities was the stupidest thing SE could have done to get people interested in PVP later.

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Originally Posted by LongNu

As the thread title says. Anyone wishing to get their feet wet in the PvP scene in let's say about 2 months or so (Maybe even less) are going to have a very painful time grinding against players with decked out 90 gear.

The suggestive fix would be a matchmaking system, but I'm sure there are other ideas that may be just as good or better.

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This is why the level synced modes, which don't use or require PvP gear, are available.

The gear and ability difference between a new player and someone with levels and 70 gear is rather large.
The crafted entry gear is pretty mediocre.

This is ideally what a matchmaking system is supposed to fix.
One REALLY needs to be implemented, and rather quickly.

No new players are going to come in and be a 2 second distraction for hundreds (thousands even, if you lose most) of games, just to get a couple pieces of gear and become a 3 second distraction.
They'll just quit PvP instead.

Really before they get this done just bloody put a Ilvl 55 requirement for Lvl50 PvP. I'm sick of those people who come in and do sub 1k damage and heals.

simple fix, remove all gear advantages in pvp, either solo que mode for pvp or 4man premade in pvp, no in-between.

What happened to people that liked to pvp because it's pvp and fun, rather than people trying to farm gear and be at a advantage of everyone else every way possible to give the opponent a handicap in every angle...? Is there a great sense of accomplishment knowing you completely rocked a solo que team with your 3-4 man pre-made on top of gear advantage...

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Originally Posted by SolRising

simple fix, remove all gear advantages in pvp, either solo que mode for pvp or 4man premade in pvp, no in-between.

What happened to people that liked to pvp because it's pvp and fun, rather than people trying to farm gear and be at a advantage of everyone else every way possible to give the opponent a handicap in every angle...? Is there a great sense of accomplishment knowing you completely rocked a solo que team with your 3-4 man pre-made on top of gear advantage...

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It's an MMO.
Almost every single (successful) one has some form of gear treadmill.
That's like, guaranteed not going away.

And yes, for a lot of people, beating up people in unfair situations is something they enjoy very much.

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Originally Posted by Quackley

It's an MMO.
Almost every single (successful) one has some form of gear treadmill.
That's like, guaranteed not going away.

And yes, for a lot of people, beating up people in unfair situations is something they enjoy very much.

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Your use of "successful" mmo is definitely not based off of their pvp system. Any mmo game known for their pvp is not gear based. Just because some people like to take advantage of others in pvp with a handicap does not mean "a lot". If anything it's the other way around. A lot more people would be pvping right now if they actually felt pvp was "balanced."

Let's be honest, if pvp is perfect right now, there would be no need even for SE to completely rework the entire arcanist class along with changing 3 man premades vs solo ques. Even SE admits that their own pvp system is completely unbalanced.

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Originally Posted by SolRising

Any mmo game known for their pvp is not gear based.
Let's be honest, if pvp is perfect right now, there would be no need even for SE to completely rework the entire arcanist class along with changing 3 man premades vs solo ques. Even SE admits that their own pvp system is completely unbalanced.

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WoW's PvP has easily been the most successful of any (MMO) game, in terms of participation and things like tournaments/events.
It's gear based.

DAOC, Rift, Aion, WoW, SWTOR, Everquest, and so on, they all have gear given out for playing.

GW2 was probably the most recent one with equal gear.
PvP was not very well received, it went nowhere because nobody felt they had something to play to (and the lack of attention and matchmaking. It's huge.)

Nobody said PvP was perfect, rather that a gear grind is pretty standard in MMOs and it's fine in FF14 if there's steps taken to even the playing field.

Me and 3 FC friends tried PvP last night, for the first time. We had forgotten it, in the midst of all the new dungeons and quests.
Well, we did lv30 and lv40 (as we thought lv50 would crush us)......we were the whipping boys.
It matched us with synched players in full Wolf Gear...it was pointless and we died horrible deaths.

However, that said, even though we were god awful, and the other teams must have thought we were donkeys.....never laughed so much in my life! :)
We had fun!! (we were on a conf call together - giggles, laughes, screams of delight, and jokey emotes all the way through!)

We are here to serve you, masters of PvP - we are your fodder!
:)

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Originally Posted by Quackley

WoW's PvP has easily been the most successful of any (MMO) game, in terms of participation and things like tournaments/events.
It's gear based.

DAOC, Rift, Aion, WoW, SWTOR, Everquest, and so on, they all have gear given out for playing.

GW2 was probably the most recent one with equal gear.
PvP was not very well received, it went nowhere because nobody felt they had something to play to (and the lack of attention and matchmaking. It's huge.)

Nobody said PvP was perfect, rather that a gear grind is pretty standard in MMOs and it's fine in FF14 if there's steps taken to even the playing field.

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All those games you mentioned are not popular for pvp at all... if anything all those games you just mentioned, no one even plays anymore.

I'm talking about mmo's that were known for it's pvp. Old school games like Ragnarok Online with their WoE, entire guilds fighting to claim forts (Yes gear made a difference but there was no pvp arena gear grind to purchase pvp specific gear. You bought gear and/or created your own pvp gears with enhancement cards/refiner). Or games like Dragon Nest where their arena style pvp game play is non gear related and non lvl related. Both of those games pvp were so popular they have tournaments held annually world wide where players actually flew out of their country/state to compete.

I'm not trying to say that ff14 should follow the same pvp systems, but it wouldn't be a bad idea to take some ideas from games that were actually known for it's pvp. It's better than the mindless token style pvp system that has huge imbalances atm.

Meh I don't care about PVP one bit, as long as it doesn't impact on PVE I'm happy.

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Originally Posted by SolRising

All those games you mentioned are not popular for pvp at all... if anything all those games you just mentioned, no one even plays anymore....Old school games... Both of those games pvp were so popular they have tournaments...

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DAOC not popular for its PvP? Reaaaaaaally?
I'm not even sure how you think that's true.

You say those games aren't played anymore, and then you mention a game like RO which isn't very played anymore either. That doesn't really make sense.

If having tournaments is an indicator of being known for PvP, then the games I mentioned should be noted as well.

zzz.

Look, in the end, a gear grind isn't going away. They exist to keep people playing the game. And they work. Look at GW2 if you want to see what happens when there's nothing to play towards.
It's NOT a big deal to have one, as long as people can still compete to some degree while grinding it out.
That's what's the issue here.

Nobody's gonna wanna come in and lose thousands of games having almost no chance of winning (there's not that much room in this game for outplaying, you'll just get rocked from gear/abilities) just to start living for more than 2 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Quackley

Nobody's gonna wanna come in and lose thousands of games having almost no chance of winning (there's not that much room in this game for outplaying, you'll just get rocked from gear/abilities) just to start living for more than 2 seconds.

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I gave a suggestion for a simple fix for the currently unbalanced pvp doesn't mean I am not open to other ideas. You're arguing that the pvp system needs to change, I'm stating the same thing. Unless you are happy with what it is right now, what are you trying to debate over with me?

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Originally Posted by SolRising

I gave a suggestion for a simple fix for the currently unbalanced pvp doesn't mean I am not open to other ideas. You're arguing that the pvp system needs to change, I'm stating the same thing. Unless you are happy with what it is right now, what are you trying to debate over with me?

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You said you wanted PvP to not have gear differences.
All I said was it's not happening, and that games have done just fine with having gear grinds/gear differentials (quite popular PvP games, in fact), and FF14 can be in that same boat, because it's really not that big of a deal.

I'm not sure if you guys realize this, but there is craftable pvp gear. This can assure that new pvpers will at least be competitve.

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Originally Posted by Dreadlockrasta

Can't wait for all the try hards to post PVP montage videos to "let the bodies hit the floor" while playing against rank 1-10 people with none of the abilities unlocked while also queuing 3 person groups

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Ill be suprised if it hasnt already happened..


Any pvp system that offers people different stats becomes a joke, if your dps has more dmg than the other teams dps whats the point, what are you going to prove, may as well go play Fat Princess atleast its symetrical

When counterstrike (7.1-1.6) made all other fps look awful it became the fps people played to show their shooter skills for 10 years, when starcraft made all other rts look simplistic it became the rts everyone played to show their micro skills for 10 years
Unfortunately the only mmo that took pvp seriously was Guildwars1 and we let it slip away long before it reached its 10 years

Look at swtor - it has pretty good pvp, with pvp gear - but they eventually introduced "bolster," to make it so that people in bad, non-pvp gear would get their stats bolstered to basically the first tier of pvp gear.

Why did they do it? So that f2pers, raiders, and fresh lvl 55's wouldn't get stomped all the time and stop pvping, thus giving the hardcore pvpers nobody to fight.

Never played an mmo where the non-hardcore pvper's didn't complain about the gear gap being unfair, but this game as gone pretty extreme for making newbie pvper's lives miserable by not only having gear, but unlockable pvp abilities. Pvp in this game will die pretty quick if they don't change that.

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Originally Posted by Alindra

Look at swtor - it has pretty good pvp, with pvp gear - but they eventually introduced "bolster," to make it so that people in bad, non-pvp gear would get their stats bolstered to basically the first tier of pvp gear.

Why did they do it? So that f2pers, raiders, and fresh lvl 55's wouldn't get stomped all the time and stop pvping, thus giving the hardcore pvpers nobody to fight.

Never played an mmo where the non-hardcore pvper's didn't complain about the gear gap being unfair, but this game as gone pretty extreme for making newbie pvper's lives miserable by not only having gear, but unlockable pvp abilities. Pvp in this game will die pretty quick if they don't change that.

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The gear doesn't make THAT big of a difference. high end PvE gear is not great but it's useable. Then there is lv30/40 modes where PvP gear has no benefit. PvP only seems to be heating up right now, not dying.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The gear doesn't make THAT big of a difference. high end PvE gear is not great but it's useable. Then there is lv30/40 modes where PvP gear has no benefit. PvP only seems to be heating up right now, not dying.

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I haven't been pvping as much, mainly because it seems like it's definitely died down with the huge que times.. also pvp in this game atm is.. meh... I just do it when evers, really just waiting for that 2.15 patch where they will fix some of the problems

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

The gear doesn't make THAT big of a difference. high end PvE gear is not great but it's useable. Then there is lv30/40 modes where PvP gear has no benefit. PvP only seems to be heating up right now, not dying.

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PvP gear makes a huge difference... lv70 PvP gear is significantly better than lv55 PvP gear / lv90 PvE gear, and the lv90 PvP gear turns everything else into wet newspaper.

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Originally Posted by Shmunkster

Me and 3 FC friends tried PvP last night, for the first time. We had forgotten it, in the midst of all the new dungeons and quests.
Well, we did lv30 and lv40 (as we thought lv50 would crush us)......we were the whipping boys.
It matched us with synched players in full Wolf Gear...it was pointless and we died horrible deaths.

However, that said, even though we were god awful, and the other teams must have thought we were donkeys.....never laughed so much in my life! :)
We had fun!! (we were on a conf call together - giggles, laughes, screams of delight, and jokey emotes all the way through!)

We are here to serve you, masters of PvP - we are your fodder!
:)

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Since warwolf gear in 30/40 becomes lv30/40 pve gear and morale = 0 so they basically pwned you guys with skill and pvp moves sadly. Maybe the cue needs to involve pvp rank(~10/~20/~30) instead of gear requirements.

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Originally Posted by Fyreus

Since warwolf gear in 30/40 becomes lv30/40 pve gear and morale = 0 so they basically pwned you guys with skill and pvp moves sadly. Maybe the cue needs to involve pvp rank(~10/~20/~30) instead of gear requirements.

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why not both

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Originally Posted by arcanelol

why not both

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A matchmaking system based on ranks (e.g. 1-15, 16-29, and 30) would be easy to implement. Gear requirements are good in theory, but there's no practical way for SE to implement it.

gear brackets is how i think it should be. competitive multiplayer should be fair otherwise whats the point in the contest in the 1st place? you got your direwolf set? cool queue with the other direwolf levels.

We already aren't having fun.

If you haven't been actively PvPing for the past few weeks you're SoL when it comes to 50 PvP.

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Originally Posted by Shmunkster

Me and 3 FC friends tried PvP last night, for the first time. We had forgotten it, in the midst of all the new dungeons and quests.
Well, we did lv30 and lv40 (as we thought lv50 would crush us)......we were the whipping boys.
It matched us with synched players in full Wolf Gear...it was pointless and we died horrible deaths.

However, that said, even though we were god awful, and the other teams must have thought we were donkeys.....never laughed so much in my life! :)
We had fun!! (we were on a conf call together - giggles, laughes, screams of delight, and jokey emotes all the way through!)

We are here to serve you, masters of PvP - we are your fodder!
:)

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One thing you can do is find out what jobs these teams of 3 are puging and then be that job. easy wins