Some Help and Criticism Please

I did my first dungeon earlier tonight (Sastasha) as a tank(ps3). I'm pretty sure I didn't do well but no one died thankfully and we didn't fail.

I definitely had no idea of what I was doing so I'm asking for some help and possibly some guide work in knowing what to do the right way the next time I do a dungeon.(what works best and in what rotation) also, it seemed to me, I wasn't doing alot of damage waiting for the 2.5 seconds between hits. seemed slow. I did get a player commendation but, IMO I didn't deserve it


some background; lvl 19 marauder/warrior(soon), never played as tank in other games.

if you never lost aggro, then you did very well.

best single target combo in your level:

Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
Fracture
Heavy Swing > Maim(20% dmg buff)
Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
Fracture
Heavy Swing > Maim(20% dmg buff)
Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
Heavy Swing > Skull Sunder
...

Best way to hold aoe aggro in your level:

Flash (Lv8 Gladiator cross class skill)
Overpower
Heavy Swing > Maim(20% dmg buff)
Overpower
Overpower
Overpower
Overpower
...


The cross class skills you need in future are:
Flash (Lv8 Gladiator)
Convalescence (Lv10 Gladiator)
Provoke (Lv22 Gladiator)
Featherfoot (Lv4 Pugilist)
and the 5th cross class skill slot is up to you

Since we are on maintenance, I forget where you get the # function...on early level dungeons, you will want to mark targets...obviously you wont be able to hold hate on a target you aren't hitting.

Basically hit the targets and cycle through until you get hate on everything in the area.

Throw a #1 and #2 in the order that you want mobs killed...if you are tanking mob #1 and #2 disengages from you...that means the healer is over healing or your dps is hitting the wrong target.

Run Sastasha a bunch if you hear my advice...after 3/4 times...you will know the dungeon in and out.

As a tank once you know what you are doing...ppl expect you to take charge.

If you are not the take charge kind of player...lvl dps

For starters, if nobody died and you guys didn't fail then that is good for a first timer.

As for rotations for MRD at your level see the above post by Anuri.

Other things to keep in mind as a tank.

- You are typically the de facto leader of the group and are expected to know the dungeons and boss fights. If you don't, it is better to let the group know you are new to it than to not say anything. But as a tank you should make it a point to learn and know the dungeons and boss fights.

- You need to mark mobs in dungeons. If you are not familiar with this, marking is where you "label" enemies with numbers and symbols to let the group know what the plan of battle is, for example labeling the first monster for people to attack with "1", then the next mob to go to with "2", etc. There is a menu that you can bring up that is labeled "signs" or something like that that will have sets of numbers paired with symbols that you can assign to ability bars. When you use that symbol as an ability with a monster selected it will cause that symbol to appear above the monsters head for the whole party to see.

- Know your enemies. When you are running a dungeon, you need to know which enemies are the priority targets that need to be dealt with first. This will make it so that you mark monsters in the proper order and take out the more troublesome ones first.

- Know how to position monsters. A lot of monsters will have AoE and Cone attacks that are telegraphed by red on the ground. You need to get used to positioning yourself so that when the monsters try to do one of these attacks, that it will not potentially hit your party. In order to do this you will often need to position yourself on the other side of the mob so that it's back is facing the rest of the party or backing yourself into a wall or corner so that again the monster will be facing you and will have their back to the rest of the party. Once the red attack telegraph appears, that is where the attack will land so you are free to move out of that space and dodge the attack without fear of the mob following you and hitting your party. Just remember to move back and reposition yourself after the attack has gone off.

- Get good at quickly swapping between targets. This will help you a lot in many different ways. It will help if you suddenly need to switch targets to change out marks for different priorities. It will help if a mob suddenly breaks off and goes after someone else and you need to suddenly switch targets to grab hate back. It will also be invaluable when you need to cycle through targets to build up more hate on them because you have your dps AoE'ing the whole group.

- Last but not least, keep a cool head. An unfocused tank will get their party killed.

Sorry if this seems like a lot, but these are some of the basics that every tank should know and be very comfortable with.
Tanking may seem tough and may be overwhelming and seem like a lot to have to learn and keep track of to a newcomer, but if you stick with it and get good at it, it can be incredibly fun and rewarding.

Thank you to all of you for being patient and giving me all this info. it's greatly appreciated. I will try to take all this knowledge and put it to good use.

Thank You again!

Just an extra information about marking targets.
Before lv 25-30, a lot of players will not care at all about your marks and hit whatever target they feel like hitting. You'll see healers pulling packs of mobs etc etc...
It can be very frustrating for you, but don't give up, keep marking and try to get AoE enmity and then to use enmity combos on multiple targets. This way you'll be used to do it for lv 30+ where it really starts to matter and where people will start to play correctly ;)

I still see at higher levels tanks not marking anything: it's just horrible to play with them.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

I still see at higher levels tanks not marking anything: it's just horrible to play with them.

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I only mark when there is a specific enemy that needs to die before anything else or else the fight turns out to be a lot more annoying than it would be otherwise (the summoners in AK, healers in anything). Beyond that, I can keep AoE aggro on anything with a modicum of effort (even at low levels), even if DPS is split. At that point, it's just simply not worth the (admittedly negligible) effort of marking before a pull to me since it doesn't really change anything.

Even at low levels, it's like this thanks to the Overpower enmity buff; when I'm running the low level roulette, 90% of the time I start a pull with 2 Overpowers, follow it up with a Maim combo, and then go right back into spamming Overpower 5 more times before just going afk to recover TP. HS>SS generates so little aggro, especially compared to the burst capabilities of DPS classes at those levels, that it's a losing battle to rely on your ST combo to maintain multi-target enmity until you get Butcher's Block/RoH (at which point the massive damage and enmity modifier on your t3 combo ensures that, after getting one off, DPS are pretty much guaranteed to not pull off of you).

Kitru, you're totally missing the point.

It's not like the OP is going to be lv 20 forever.

The golden rule in MMOs is "possibilities depend on situation".
So unless you can make a golden rule that applies to every single possible situation, please refrain from giving situational examples.
This behavior makes you look like a narrow minded girl, not knowing what she's talking about.

Communication with teammates is a golden rule in MMOs.
Marking is communication. Hence marking is almost mandatory.
Yes, you'll find situational counter examples.

The OP being a new tank, seeking advises to learn the job, she should be training to put marks at easy low levels, instead of learning how to put marks on high end dungeons.

I wouldn't say marking is mandatory, but it will definitely help a lot. And there will always be those DDs who completely ignore any targets you set anyway and attack whatever they feel like (too many parties I've tanked in have had that happen sadly).

Really though, the best advice to the OP is (and I learned this in FFXI), is 'find what works the best for you for your situation, and use it'. Some like to set number marks to show the order to attack enemies. Some just stick a single mark on the first target and work from there. Find what works for you and use it, and as long as it helps you and your party, then that's what's important. :)

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Originally Posted by Nalou

Kitru, you're totally missing the point.

It's not like the OP is going to be lv 20 forever.

The golden rule in MMOs is "possibilities depend on situation".
So unless you can make a golden rule that applies to every single possible situation, please refrain from giving situational examples.
This behavior makes you look like a narrow minded girl, not knowing what she's talking about.

Communication with teammates is a golden rule in MMOs.
Marking is communication. Hence marking is almost mandatory.
Yes, you'll find situational counter examples.

The OP being a new tank, seeking advises to learn the job, she should be training to put marks at easy low levels, instead of learning how to put marks on high end dungeons.

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Marking can be handy, but it is *not* needed by any stretch. You are using it as a crutch for yourself and hand-holding your dps. You are giving advice to others based on your own self imposed limitations. This behavior makes you look like a narrow minded boy, not knowing what he's talking about. (Turnabout is such fun, isn't it?)

I've never marked, nor needed to mark, anything in any dungeon at any level. I do not lose aggro. I do not care what the dps choose to hit. I do not complain anyone has "hit the wrong target". I have never failed a dungeon run.

Only twice have I had dps that complained they wanted marks. I informed them they were free to mark or organize amongst themselves as they saw fit and that was that. Some tanks might want/need marks, they will have to try them out and decide for themselves what it is that works best for them.

As far as advice. After rounding up your targets you will want to flash or overpower at least 2 to 3 times to secure enmity over the healer and gain some time to assess the situation. While you are doing that glance at the enemy health in the enmity listing to see which is dropping fastest. This will give you an idea where to start putting your threat combos. You will want to cycle through the targets and look at the small white bars to the left of your group's health bars to see how much threat each group member has on each target.

If multiple targets are being hit faster then you can build single target enmity, or if you have pulled more targets then you can easily cycle through, you will want to continue with overpower and/or flashes. As flash/overpower are area effects the target you have selected matters little so you can also use this time to cycle through and make sure none of your group members are getting close to taking aggro despite the AE. If the enmity bars are all low you can slow it down so your TP/MP isn't drained for the next fight. You will learn how much you need to AE in a given situation with practice.

As far as doing low damage... It is the primary job of the dps to work down then enemy health bars. It is your primary job to work down your group's white enmity bars. While it helps things along to do as much damage as you can get away with that is not your primary role. Similarly it helps things along when the dps is aware of their enmity.

It might also behoove you to learn to gauge the range on flash as opening with a flash *just* as the mobs get into your range can be a handy habit to get into. Sometimes the healer will cast something on you mid-pull and suddenly the mob are running right past you. That opening flash will intercept them even if that happens.

The only time not to mark is when everything is dying to AoE, because it will all die at the same time anyway. Not marking when everyone is single target makes you need more healing because split DPS leaves things alive longer. People who don't mark are just very, very lazy for the most part. You don't even have to slow down to mark a 1 on something, do it as you move into range. I don't bother with 2 3 4 5, etc, but at least put a 1 up on what should be killed first. Yep, I'm lazy, too.

A bit of advice i learned myself, not all too long ago, is for starting a pull, Berserked overpowers makes for one hellova giant emnity gain, easily sticking a whole pull to you for most if not all of a fight. At this point i try to keep as many skills on CD as i can while effectively managing what i feel i would need. need the quick emnity boost? internal released or bloodbath, berserk, throw out some overpowers. hate is sealed. higher lvl you need some dmg cushion quickly? vengeance + foresight is a nice, quick bounce in your damage reduction. just 1 huge thing to remember, no matter the level of content youre at, is if its humanly possible for you to dodge an AOE, do so lol. very rarely will you run into AOE you cannot dodge. so put every effort you have into taking less hits.

Help me understand, maybe I'm wrong but as a healer, seeing marked targets helps me focus on the primary target faster so I can stone 2 them down fast. I knowing marking is useless in speed runs where everyone is aoe down. On those occasions where we are single dps target, marking helps me to pick out those targets so I don't have to cycle through to guess who we are dps. I try to be an effective healer but those times where I don't need to heal, I aero and dps.

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Originally Posted by Peptaru

Not marking when everyone is single target makes you need more healing because split DPS leaves things alive longer.

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Actually, if people are splitting DPS but still multi-DoTing and using ground AoEs (like Flaming Arrow and Shadow Flare that BRD and SMN should both be using as part of their ST rotation anyways), stuff will die faster in the long run because you're getting more total potency per GCD (and not wasting DoT uptimes on targets dying before the DoT can tick fully). It is true that focus targeting reduces incoming damage on the tank is all about reducing damage taken by the tank, but that's all that it's good at. If you want to kill stuff as fast as possible, you actually want to split DPS and multiDoT to get the most out of all of your various abilities. The only time this isn't true is when you have specific class synergy, like DRG and BRD (DRG piercing debuff increases BRD damage which is can't get otherwise) or WAR and PLD (same thing only with slashing debuff), and, even then, you get more by multiDoTing than you would by focusing entirely.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Stuff

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Brds and Smns.... that's an AoE party, and I covered that. By the time you've put up the Smn/Brd DoT's with Bane, things should be half dead already . . . and everything is going to die at the same time. Or maybe we are supposed to extend that to Drg and Mnk and Whm are supposed to multi-dot as well. Sch does, on the other hand, multi-dot well because of bane and shadowflare.

Should a Drg Ph and Fr every mob or just put up HT and drop a huge potency combo on one thing? ~Just as an example. People are simply to used to AoE'ing everything, which is why i mentioned it specifically.