Are Primals Real?(Spoilers yo!)

In Light of Good King Moggle Mog maybe we should reconsider if the Primals are infact being summoned or are in fact created again and again by the rituals that summon them.

Lets Look at the Good King's quests and compare. The Scions repeatedly state the Good King disturbs the Aether just like any proper primal. He even seems to cause a tempering like effect in the Moogles who summon him. For all intents and purposes he is a Primal.

Yet its also made clear that he isn't being drawn down from Heaven(or beyond the grave) but rather is a story given real existence by act of the dark ritual. So my thought is, what if the same is true of the Primals? That the Ifrit worth being worship has a separate existence from the monster that is "summoned"(or may not exist at all), that the ritual creates something new from the passionate memories and faith of the tribe.

My only real problem with this thesis is that Ifrit knew of the Echo, and that would seem to be knowledge his faithful lacked. Secondly when they were bound in the Ultima weapon the three primals were unable to be summoned/Of course this might be a factor of the beast tribes knowing they are bound and thus believing they cannot be summoned. On the otherhand how would they know such things readily?

Well, as I mentioned in another thread recently (this one to be precise, Minfilia and Thancred elaborated on just what the Primals are, and their explanation does actually fit in with Good King Moggle Mog too, even if the isn't actually considered a Primal literally, he still shares aspects of them as you noted.

I'll just copy and paste the relevant dialogue from the game rather than type it out:

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Originally Posted by Main Scenario Quest 'Lord of the Inferno

Thancred: "Now, aether exists throughout creation. It flows through all life, and permeates the very air that we breathe. Alas, this alone will not suffice to sustain the likes of Ifrit. Nay, he and his kind require a more concentrated source of aether-crystals."
Minfilia: "It is for this reason that incidents involving crystals can often be traced back to a Primal."
Thancred: "Which leaves us with the why of the abductions. To understand this, you must first understand how Primals are born. When all is well with the world, Primals possess no physical form. Their essence is dispersed across the great river of aether."
Minfilia: "However, when the world is plunged into chaos, those who worship the Primals cry out to their gods for deliverance from suffering. These cries serve as a beacon towards which a Primal's essence is irresistibly drawn. It is this coming together- or 'aetheric coalescence'- which grants the beings physical form. Once born, a Primal gains strength from it's followers' worship. The more numerous and fervent they are, the more powerful their god becomes."

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So from this we have the several 'classic' elements of what makes up a Primal: they are are just an essence lacking physical form normally which just flows through the 'river of aether' within Hydaelyn (ala, the 'Lifestream'). They are given physical form when mortals start praying for them, which they inevitably gravitate to, and the summoning process effectively grants them a physical form by way of concentrated aether in the form of crystals. This also explains exactly why they temper mortals - because their very existence depends on belief, the more followers they have, the more powerful they are. There's a certain similarity to Terry Pratchet's Diskworld ironically, which shares a pantheon of gods who only exist as long as mortals believe in them - if people stop believing they literally cease to be. Therefore, by tempering, they ensure they have a never-ending army of devoted followers, thus allowing them to sustain themselves in the mortal realm.

So again, we come back to the question of just what Good King Moggle Mog is. Although Ferne has confirmed that Mog is not a Primal, we also have to ask, 'what makes a Primal different from an 'aetheric being/myth made manifest' like Mog'? Because the line is pretty much blurring between the two. Personally, and this is my own theory here, so take it what you will, but I think the difference is a Primal has always existed on Hydaelyn, and hence myths have formed around them, where as Mog is petty much the complete opposite - the myth came first for him, and via manipulation of aether he was given a physical form corresponding (albeit in a warped way), to his appearance in the moogles' creation myth. It also well worth remembering that during the storyline the Ascians were mentioned as having tried (and ultimately failing to) to get some put-upon Ala Mhigan refugees to actually summon Rhalgr in a similar manner - considering the jury is still out on whether the Twelve are physically real or not (even Ferne just kind of smiled mischievously and winked at us saying "the Twelve may actually be not be all that they're made out to be", it's highly likely if it had gone ahead the summoning of Rhalgr might have taken a similar form as to what happened with Good King Moggle Mog. Or at least, that's what it seems to me.

Hopefully I didn't come across as undermining your post - I just wanted to add some more info to what you had. :)

Gods only existing based on belief isn't a particularly novel idea the question I am asking is whether or not primals have an independent existence(even as a non material entity) inbetween defeats, or is each time Titan is killed that's it for him. the Next Titan who get summoned wasn't defeated by the Company of heroes, or the Scions. or is that Titan is a new entity created by each ritual.

I can't remember the details precisely, but in the story quest to fight Ifrit he seems to remember things that happened before.

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Originally Posted by jomoru

Gods only existing based on belief isn't a particularly novel idea the question I am asking is whether or not primals have an independent existence(even as a non material entity) inbetween defeats, or is each time Titan is killed that's it for him. the Next Titan who get summoned wasn't defeated by the Company of heroes, or the Scions. or is that Titan is a new entity created by each ritual.

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The quote I posted from the game itself, plus the FFXIV website itself, pretty much says that the Primals indeed have an independent existence while in their incorporeal state - they're basically a consciousness without a body. All the summoning process does is effectively generate their form for them. This is why they are endlessly dispatched and defeated over and over again - the body dies, but the soul, the spirit remains to be given a replacement form in the next summoning ritual.

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Originally Posted by TychoCelchu

I can't remember the details precisely, but in the story quest to fight Ifrit he seems to remember things that happened before.

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That door swings both ways on the evidence front and conforms to both theories, really. Ifrit does seem to have memory, but also only seems to know what the Paragon recently told him: "Godless Blessed" are coming.

There's a bigger anomaly, however. If you look at the Version 1.0 quest and the Version 2.0 quest, the same things happen the same way both times. The Amalj'aa kidnap a group, a bunch get tempered, the adventurers don't, he's mystified by it but remembers that the Paragon warned of Godless Blessed.

My assumption was that they took the Version 1.0 quest, stripped it for parts, and rebuilt it as part of the 2.0 storyline, because if you take it canonically, Ifrit seems to have forgotten that the same exact thing happened five years ago. He's not like, "OH, GREAT. MORE OF YOU UNTEMPERABLE FOLK," but basically "Ah, yes. The Paragon warned of your kind..." again. Moreover, one time he smells something amiss, one time what's amiss is that he smells nothing. One time the Paragon says to spare them, one time he says to kill them. I'm guessing that Square Enix simply rethought how to approach the subject and thus a lot of the evidence can be used either way.

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Originally Posted by Version 1.0

I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda...or Titan? Perchance...Leviathan? Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed. There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked. Yet the Paragon has entreated that I spare you, and so I shall─on one condition. Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins will be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity.

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Originally Posted by Version 2.0

Forsooth, thy frail mortal frame can serve as vessel to the blessing of but One. Yet I smell not the taint of another upon thee... The truth of thine allegiance waxeth clear─thou art of the godless blessed's number. The Paragons warned of thine abhorrent kind. Thine existence is not to be suffered.

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This is religion. Square Enix wants it to be a chicken and egg sort of thing. We'll have to work for the truth.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

The quote I posted from the game itself, plus the FFXIV website itself, pretty much says that the Primals indeed have an independent existence while in their incorporeal state - they're basically a consciousness without a body. All the summoning process does is effectively generate their form for them. This is why they are endlessly dispatched and defeated over and over again - the body dies, but the soul, the spirit remains to be given a replacement form in the next summoning ritual.

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What a character says in game, has the flaws of being well said by the a character with limited knowledge(He also may have been compromised by then). I give more credence ot the site, still it might be building up to that sort of reveal with the Moggle Mog setup.

The imagery from the 1.0 intro cinematic which shows the explosion of the 'aether well' under Silvertear illustrates this - you see ghostly forms of Primals escaping from the Imperial airship's impact into the lake. And if I understand current 1.0 lore-mining correctly, until that point, there was not enough free aether in the world to summon them forth in the first place.

Assuming the sealed aether well and Midgarsormir were originally set in place in the lake by the Allagans... and the ability of Ultima Weapon to seal Primals within itself (plus what we see in Bahamut's Coil) it seems to me that the Allagans were specialists in either enslaving Primals outright or sealing them away. What their dragon-slavery aspect has to do with this is less clear to me, unless it's just an overarching theme that the Allagans were experts in exerting dominance over most aspects of the world during their time, and weren't afraid to enslave almost everything including the flow of aether itself towards their own ends.

King Mog seems like a similar yet different being -- formed from aether like a Primal but more of a simulacrum that embodies the will of the ones who called him, rather than an independent being who imposes his will on his callers (like all the True primals).

Because if King Mog really could Temper moogles, they would have to be killed just like every other Tempered being in the game, because once you're Tempered you cannot be left alone and will always try to single-mindedly serve and call your Primal again like a zombie. I don't think that's what happened to the Mooglesguard -- they were scolded and made to apologize, but so far as we hear they were not permanently damaged by calling King Mog.

I think King Mog is more similar to Carbuncle than any of the Primals.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Stuff

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There is a remarkably simple answer for this: You'll notice everyone cannot really remember the Warriors of Light. Being a primal probably doesn't exclude Ifrit from this mass forgetfulness.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

...snip...

This is religion. Square Enix wants it to be a chicken and egg sort of thing. We'll have to work for the truth.

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Or maybe that's part of it in and of itself. Maybe there simply isn't one "truth".

I would say yes, primals are real.

Here is a document I "rescued" and compiled from the 1.0 lodestone. While i can't guarantee it's authenticity, it seems fairly legitimate and has some backing from the previous lore forums.

From the Five Ages, the primal were created by the twelves in order to aid them in the world. Moggle King is not mentioned, as he might be a myth brought to live.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9MK...p=docslist_api

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Originally Posted by Woobs

I would say yes, primals are real.

Here is a document I "rescued" and compiled from the 1.0 lodestone. While i can't guarantee it's authenticity, it seems fairly legitimate and has some backing from the previous lore forums.

From the Five Ages, the primal were created by the twelves in order to aid them in the world. Moggle King is not mentioned, as he might be a myth brought to live.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9MK...p=docslist_api

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This is amazing, and frustrates me to no end that we don't have easier access to this kind of info.

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Originally Posted by Woobs

I would say yes, primals are real.

Here is a document I "rescued" and compiled from the 1.0 lodestone. While i can't guarantee it's authenticity, it seems fairly legitimate and has some backing from the previous lore forums.

From the Five Ages, the primal were created by the twelves in order to aid them in the world. Moggle King is not mentioned, as he might be a myth brought to live.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9MK...p=docslist_api

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I think I love you, thank you so much for this. This pretty much needs its own thread.

Edit : Scratch that IT NEEDS it's own thread.

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Originally Posted by Woobs

Here is a document I "rescued" and compiled from the 1.0 lodestone.

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Are we sure that the relevant sections are Square Enix sources and not entirely fan-enhancements? There are a lot of red flags here, from the invocation of judeo-christian names that SE usually stays away from in core world-building mythology to things that SE have since stated against

For starters...

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Llymlaen longed to travel the furthest reaches of Hydaelyn in her little boat, but in order to do so she needed rivers and oceans to sail upon. She created the primal Leviathan for just this reason and tasked him with filling the world with water, which also helped give rise to the wind in her sails.

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This is the legend of the Lominsan sea serpent, Thalaos, not Leviathan.

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Originally Posted by Tanga Tonga"

Do you know of the tale of the Thalaos? It is said Llymlaen summoned the massive serpent upon the primordial dry, and from its belly it spewed forth the waters which became the seas.

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Square Enix has stated repeatedly that the sea serpent and Leviathan are not one in the same.

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Originally Posted by Fernhalwes

No, that is not Leviathan. It’s a sea serpent. This is explained (somewhat convolutedly) in the Limsa Lominsa storyline.

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Likewise, the work refers to Carbuncle as a Terrestrial Primal. Aside from the fact that the celestial/terrestrial aspect has not been made a part of XIV in any way (to my knowledge), Carbuncle is an "arcane entity" given life by manipulating the living nature of the aether in accordance with geometrical understanding.

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Originally Posted by K'lyhia

The arcane entity given form by the topaz geometry excels in defensive techniques.

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Moreover, a ton of the art is borrowed from one DeviantArtist, which doesn't help, as the document labels them as things they're not.

Almost everything that was ever released by Square Enix via the Lodestone has been preserved by Gamer Escape news, ZAM news, and various forums, yet many of these terms return zero Google hits. The majority of information in this document that is not readily available on current SE sources seems like a convincingly crafted (but ultimately untrustworthy) collection of fan-fiction.

As I said, I'm not sure about it's authenticity. On the old lore forum, The Five Ages was mentioned as a lore book, but i'm not sure if this is actually genuine or not. If it is fan made, it's took a lot of work for someone to do this.

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Originally Posted by Woobs

As I said, I'm not sure about it's authenticity. On the old lore forum, The Five Ages was mentioned as a lore book, but i'm not sure if this is actually genuine or not. If it is fan made, it's took a lot of work for someone to do this.

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The Five Ages was one of the Dusty Tomes that you could view inside certain guilds. It contained only

• 1.1 The Preface
• 1.2 Chapter 1 - The Suns
• 1.3 Chapter 2 - The Moons
• 1.4 Chapter 3 - The Years
• 1.5 Chapter 4 - Of Man
• 1.6 Chapter 5 - Of Gods

Each chapter was only a couple sentences long and explain how time passes in Eorzea.


As far as I can tell, someone borrowed the name, copy-pasted some Lodestone flavortext into some of the chapters, and completely fleshed the rest out in DeviantArt images and made-up lore.


A shame, really. I was excited for a second.