The real reason why PVP is imbalanced

SE dropped the ball on this one. They allow premade groups of 2 or 3 to join the duty finder for the non-premade match.

If they did it right, they would've made it so you can only join the non-premade match as a solo player. And make it so that you can only join the premade group match in a party of 2 or 4. Make it impossible to Duty Finder as a party of 3.

Anybody who forms a party of a SMN, BLM, and SCH will win almost everytime because they'll have a high chance of facing a non-premade group and that setup is almost fail proof.

No.

Stop making multiple threads saying the same thing. If you dont like it, find 3 friends. You also seem to forget solo q'ing you often get a 3 person party.

Just because you want to exploit the system, doesn't mean it's working as intended. If they made it right, solo q'ing will put you in a grouping of only solo q'ers. If they made it right, they would only allow you to form a party of 2 or 4 if you want to pvp in a group. Obviously because if you form a party of 3, that means a solo player is needed in that grouping and that's what causes the imbalances in the first place. Just because you want to group up with your friends and stomp on solo q'ers just proves my point of how imbalanced it is.

Are you saying that a premade of 4 vs. a pug of 4 is weaker than a premade of 2/3 vs. a pug of 4?

PVP should start you with with base gear and PVE stuff cant be used stats & skill all have to be new.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

Are you saying that a premade of 4 vs. a pug of 4 is weaker than a premade of 2/3 vs. a pug of 4?

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I'm saying that a premade will most likely be more dominant than a pug of 4 even if the premade is just 2 or 3.

If you queue in Wolf's Den as a premade of 3, you will be put into the first grouping which has a high chance of pitting you against a pug of 4 because there are more solo players using duty finder for pvp than there are premades of 3. So your group would consist of 2 others you know and coordinate with on voice communication and 1 pug on your team. While the other group has 4 complete strangers to each other that's partying for the first time ever. If you don't see the imbalance in that, then there's nothing else for me to say.

PVP is not a solo experience. Whether you queue with 1 or 4 you are going to be in a party of 4 and you need to work with them.

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Originally Posted by Madoka

PVP is not a solo experience. Whether you queue with 1 or 4 you are going to be in a party of 4 and you need to work with them.

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If you solo queue and get put into a group with 3 other solo queuers while being matched up with a premade group of 3 +1 pug, you're obviously at a disadvantage. Advantages for the premade group includes:

1. Coordinated strategies through voice communication
2. Experience with playing with each other
3. Having a better setup based on jobs

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Originally Posted by Tenku

I'm saying that a premade will most likely be more dominant than a pug of 4 even if the premade is just 2 or 3.

If you queue in Wolf's Den as a premade of 3, you will be put into the first grouping which has a high chance of pitting you against a pug of 4 because there are more solo players using duty finder for pvp than there are premades of 3. So your group would consist of 2 others you know and coordinate with on voice communication and 1 pug on your team. While the other group has 4 complete strangers to each other that's partying for the first time ever. If you don't see the imbalance in that, then there's nothing else for me to say.

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But you can end up in a premade of 4 vs. a pug of 4. I did that the other day. My LS friends (premade 4) ended up creaming my pug team and mocking me in LS chat. So your solution doesn't appear to be a solution as a premade of any size can vs. a pug of any size.

Additionally, let's say they made all premades of any size vs. premades of any other size. How do you account for the 1-2 solo players who get stuck in a vs. premade that makes the comp any fairer than what you state is the current issue?

I am really lost on your proposal. Your solution is improbable and not currently in place in any form that I've seen.

^
Group 1 = You can only enter as a solo queue.

Group 2 = You can only enter as a party of 2 or 4.

The 2 groups will never be matched together. Think of it as different instances. Obviously this is how it should work or else there wouldn't be two options for Wolf's Den at level 50. Did you not notice that you can only choose the last option when you're in a party of 4?

For your scenerio, I am guessing that there is a fail-safe that will allow your 4 man premade to be put into the first grouping because there weren't any other 4 man premades at the time. You just proved my point anyways. The Premade of 4 CREAMED the pug team.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

^
Group 1 = You can only enter as a solo queue.

Group 2 = You can only enter as a party of 2 or 4.

The 2 groups will never be matched together. Think of it as different instances. Obviously this is how it should work or else there wouldn't be two options for Wolf's Den at level 50. Did you not notice that you can only choose the last option when you're in a party of 4?

For your scenerio, I am guessing that there is a fail-safe that will allow your 4 man premade to be put into the first grouping because there weren't any other 4 man premades at the time. You just proved my point anyways. The Premade of 4 CREAMED the pug team.

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So for the options of 2 or 4 premades, how do you deal with

1) 2 pug players getting stuck in a partial premade group. Sure, supposedly it's balanced with 2 premade vs. 2 premade and 2 pug vs 2 pug, but not really. 2 SMN running the block will destroy just about anything vs. a pug not holding 2 SMN. So, you've solved little next to nothing except to allow min/max comps run ANY instance they want, and put 2 solo players in a premade, which means they might have all the issues you want to protect them from, plus any flaming from their 2 premade friends trying to run the show.

2) Groups of 3 who want to play together and don't have a 4th?

Your idea will burden the queue times and seems to solve little next to nothing to be honest.

My example was not to cater to your point. I vs. that same premade later and creamed them. I've gone in with full relic team premades vs. my pug and we've won. Yes, you're right, premades have a possible advantage, but a crappy premade, partial or full, has nothing on 4 solid players ending up together.

^ You really need to learn to read dude. Why would 2 pug players get stuck in a partial premade group with the way I explained it? If you solo queued, you can only be put into the instance with solo queues that means all 4 players on the team for both sides are solo queues.

If you are a premade of 2, you can be put into the 2nd instance that is meant for premades. You can possibly be put into a group with another premade of 2 pitted against a premade of 4. It's not perfect, but much more balanced than it is now.

Yes, in order for this to work, they have to make it impossible to queue as a party of 3 because the goal is to never allow the solo queue to be put into the same instance as any premades.

I'm going to bed. If you still can't understand this, please go back to school or learn some basic math.

SOLO INSTANCE 1 = SOLO PLAYERS ONLY = 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1) vs 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1)

PREMADE INSTANCE 2 = PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4) vs PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4)

People will always scream that PvP is not balanced when they have a terrible win-loss record.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

^ You really need to learn to read dude. Why would 2 pug players get stuck in a partial premade group with the way I explained it? If you solo queued, you can only be put into the instance with solo queues that means all 4 players on the team for both sides are solo queues.

If you are a premade of 2, you can be put into the 2nd instance that is meant for premades. You can possibly be put into a group with another premade of 2 pitted against a premade of 4. It's not perfect, but much more balanced than it is now.

Yes, in order for this to work, they have to make it impossible to queue as a party of 3 because the goal is to never allow the solo queue to be put into the same instance as any premades.

I'm going to bed. If you still can't understand this, please go back to school or learn some basic math.

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So 2 premade teams of 2 team up, that means the queue needs 4 premade teams of 2 for that to work. OR, you say that 2 teams of 2 can vs. a team of 4, and that all the sudden it's balanced because why again?

You can insult me all you want. You're an idiot with stupid ideas and have no concept of how this will play out and wreak havoc on queue times. Maybe you should just find a few friends to play with and not worry about what's fair and not? I mean, is it fair that I see fully geared 50s in my level 30 queue?

You propose a horribly complicated solution to the so-called problems of a system that was implemented days ago. What you want are premade 2s or 4s arena teams. I am sure that will happen soon, along with other PVP options.

Did it ever occur to you that they did this the way they did to see how PVP will work, and to get some stats to know how to redesign this setup and create new setups? Probably not.

Oh, and learn to play, man. I do solo all the time and I am 49/60 wins on my teams, mostly all pugs.


EDIT: To clarify my point, a team of 2 DD will have to wait forever for a healer/tank premade to form. Or a DD/healer has to wait forever for a tank/DD. What are the odds that any given group of two will find a matching complement in under an hour? I couldn't say. But what I know is that you said I need to learn math. You need to learn basic statistics and probability, son.

My edit addresses your mathematical genius quite well, sir. You edited:

"SOLO INSTANCE 1 = SOLO PLAYERS ONLY = 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1) vs 4 PLAYERS SOLO QUEUED (1+1+1+1)

PREMADE INSTANCE 2 = PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4) vs PARTY OF 2 + PARTY OF 2 OR PARTY OF 4 (2+2 OR 4) "

Many MMOs have the premade vs pug PVP problem. FFXIV already has solo and group queues, so it's really close to fixing the problem. Make the solo queue only accept solo players.

People who want to join the premade queue but only have 2 or 3 people can find another person or two and then enter the premade queue.

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Originally Posted by IndigoHawk

Many MMOs have the premade vs pug PVP problem. FFXIV already has solo and group queues, so it's really close to fixing the problem. Make the solo queue only accept solo players.

People who want to join the premade queue but only have 2 or 3 people can find another person or two and then enter the premade queue.

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I rather have it be impossible to queue as 3, but I guess it wouldn't hurt if the premade grouping just took a solo queue when that scenerio occurs. Glad you understand that the system is already in place and just needs to be tweaked. Many MMOs that have the premade problems include RIFT, TERA, and WOW.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

You've solved nothing.

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I'm pretty sure you're just like me taking advantage of the 3 man premade. It's the only reason I can think of why you're so adamant on not wanting to make it better. I said they should make it impossible to queue as a 3 man premade, but if you really want the 3 man premade, fine, you can have it. When there is a group of a 3 man premade, the server will pull a solo queue into the premade group. Having these restrictions between the 2 duty finders which is ALREADY IN PLACE would actually go along way to making it more balance.

Next time, when you decide to toss somebody's idea in the trash, you should come up with a better argument than "You've proposed no solutions here. Short fixes for rare cases that still are imbalanced unless premade 4 v 4." If you used simple logic and understood what type of players this game catered towards, then you'd understand why it's important to balance it for solo players:

THIS GAME IS CATERED TOWARDS CASUAL GAMERS. The pvp has only been out for 3 days and you've already done over 60 matches which makes you NOT a casual gamer. So how about stop thinking about yourself and think about what's good for the game.

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Originally Posted by HFX7686

People will always scream that PvP is not balanced when they have a terrible win-loss record.

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My Win-Loss record is positive only because I also take advantage of the 3 man premade group. Most of my losses came from solo queue. It doesn't take a genius to know why that's the case.

I understand his concern. I think he worded it poorly. It's not necessarily an issue of 'balance', but he wants to give solo que's of 4 vs. a premade of 3 a better fighting chance. The coordination, skill, and application of a premade 3-man team in vent will easily outdo just about any comp that you can get random PUG'd against.

In his example, he wants solo que's to always get put into random groups, against solo que's. This would allow people who do not have a static/pre-made group of 3 people from getting steamrolled by those who go in with 3 people, because 3 people is pretty much a premade group and is great for demolishing smaller teams.

Well, I don't think it would solve -any- balance, I think it's a great idea that would allow people solo que'ing to have more fun, and meet more people.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

I'm pretty sure you're just like me taking advantage of the 3 man premade. It's the only reason I can think of why you're so adamant on not wanting to make it better. I said they should make it impossible to queue as a 3 man premade, but if you really want the 3 man premade, fine, you can have it. When there is a group of a 3 man premade, the server will pull a solo queue into the premade group. Having these restrictions between the 2 duty finders which is ALREADY IN PLACE would actually go along way to making it more balance.

Next time, when you decide to toss somebody's idea in the trash, you should come up with a better argument than "You've proposed no solutions here. Short fixes for rare cases that still are imbalanced unless premade 4 v 4." If you used simple logic and understood what type of players this game catered towards, then you'd understand why it's important to balance it for solo players:

THIS GAME IS CATERED TOWARDS CASUAL GAMERS. The pvp has only been out for 3 days and you've already done over 60 matches which makes you NOT a casual gamer. So how about stop thinking about yourself and think about what's good for the game.

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All I did was point out the problems with your plan. Do you really want to wait an hour for a queue to pop? Either you do in the name of 256bit justice, or you don't. You already said, if it came to that, then just go back to putting pugs in to fill the spots. So imbalance or long queue times, which is it.

And no, as I said, I run mostly solo queue. The only time I ran otherwise is with a BLM friend of mine for like 15 runs. So, yeah, I must be profiting off of the system if I don't see it your way. At least, that's what you're saying.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

You really don't read do you? Again.... you stated yourself.. there is a ALREADY a fail-safe system in place to make it so when there are no other 4 man parties queued, your 4 man premade will be put into the other queue that has non 4 man premades. lol. good night.

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YOU DONT READ. That negates fixing the problem man. You'll end up in this situation most of the time, which means that you've only balanced PVP 10% of the time, when the conditions are perfect for matching premades. God, either I am not understanding you, or you're not getting my point.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

Just because you want to exploit the system, doesn't mean it's working as intended.

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Making a second thread for this? You admitted in your first one you were doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Jyoeru

All I did was point out the problems with your plan. Do you really want to wait an hour for a queue to pop? Either you do in the name of 256bit justice, or you don't. You already said, if it came to that, then just go back to putting pugs in to fill the spots. So imbalance or long queue times, which is it.

And no, as I said, I run mostly solo queue. The only time I ran otherwise is with a BLM friend of mine for like 15 runs. So, yeah, I must be profiting off of the system if I don't see it your way. At least, that's what you're saying.

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You really don't read do you? Again.... you stated yourself.. there is a ALREADY a fail-safe system in place to make it so when there are no other 4 man parties queued, your 4 man premade will be put into the other queue that has non 4 man premades. lol. good night.

P.S. Look up the definition of fail-safe.

yeah a premade of 3 is better than 4, because if u form a party of 4 u will face premades , if u form a party of 3 u will face pugs.

Magic bullets don't exist.

No MMO ever has been able to balance PvP. If they try it becomes homogenized where all classes are identical in effect and boring. Groups end up leading to this anyway because the groups become homogenized. trinity, 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps anyone?

If you are a true PvP player you should know this by now. It's hack and slash, always will be.

I agree with the OP. Premade should fight vs Premade, simply because premade has a combination of jobs that it is unlikely that gonna happen on a random solo queue. (sometimes it does).
ATM mages and ranged are a bit too strong vs drg/mnk.
blm smn sch war so far is the best combination you can have, very hard to beat if those people are good.

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Originally Posted by Ksenia

Magic bullets don't exist.

No MMO ever has been able to balance PvP. If they try it becomes homogenized where all classes are identical in effect and boring. Groups end up leading to this anyway because the groups become homogenized. trinity, 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps anyone?

If you are a true PvP player you should know this by now. It's hack and slash, always will be.

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so... your reason for not fixing a problem is ... 'the problem has always been around'?

cool. cool.

I agree with the OP as well. Premade only queue and pug only queue gives both premade groups and pug groups the most appropriate matches. I'm fine with 2 and 4 man queues funneling in to the 4 man matches.

Sounds to me like what you want is battleground type pvp. Joining solo in something that can be joined as a group is like you trying to DF titan HM, yeah you could win but your odds aren't good so why don't you join a party of 3 friends so you know your going to work well together. If they had say 24 vs. 24 battleground style pvp you wouldn't really need to worry so much about premades in pvp if you just trying to have fun.

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Originally Posted by Skotie

If they had say 24 vs. 24 battleground style pvp you wouldn't really need to worry so much about premades in pvp if you just trying to have fun.

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That's not true 24 vs 24 is the worst because the premades team tends to be put together while the other team is full of all pugs. If you don't believe this, go play TERA. Also, they have the system in place for duty finder for solo and duty finder for premade. Why not enhance it and make it so the first option can only be joined solo? You do know that those two level 50 Wolf Den instances from the duty finder are separate from each other right? The only times a premade of 4 is put against a pug is when there is no other premade of 4. (SE's fail-safe system to make sure the queue times are optimal)

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Originally Posted by BoomerOU

I agree with the OP as well. Premade only queue and pug only queue gives both premade groups and pug groups the most appropriate matches. I'm fine with 2 and 4 man queues funneling in to the 4 man matches.

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Sigh. If you have 2man premade, they are stuck waiting for the exact complement they need to run. IE 2 DD need to wait for a Tank/Healer combo. Odds are low you'll find that, so your queue times skyrocket. If there is a timer that puts you into the normal queue after X minutes, then you're still stuck waiting for a queue longer, and ultimately end up in the solo queue anyway, so nothing was solved.

I don't even see the point in this discussion. Square isn't going to implement this, and if they do, they will break PVP for a lot of people, so probably not going to happen. PVP isn't really imbalanced. You have 2 mins to figure out your strategy, and there's only so much you need to know.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

That's not true 24 vs 24 is the worst because the premades team tends to be put together while the other team is full of all pugs. If you don't believe this, go play TERA. Also, they have the system in place for duty finder for solo and duty finder for premade. Why not enhance it and make it so the first option can only be joined solo? You do know that those two level 50 Wolf Den instances from the duty finder are separate from each other right? The only times a premade of 4 is put against a pug is when there is no other premade of 4. (SE's fail-safe system to make sure the queue times are optimal)

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You don't have any data to back up your claims. Your logic still lacks. Queue times will ALWAYS be longer for premades forced into a premade queue because most people don't make premades, and most premades will look for a way to get into the instance faster (and, as you claim, with an advantage). So, put premades into their own queue, and the fail-safe still sticks them in the solo queue to "keep queue times optimal" as you said. You've solved nothing.

Until you have the data from all the pvp comps, runs, premades vs. non, queue times, and win/loss comparisons, your argument is 99% speculative. Your solution is 99% impractical.

Don't believe me, then try to do premades in WOW. I've done PVP enough in a much larger game to know that (a) your problem isn't really a problem, and (b) there isn't a feasible solution for the components of the argument that are problematic. The only real issue that will come up is level 50 players sporting full level 50 PVP gear, and coming into the lower level runs against players who can't even get PVP gear. That is what ruins PVP, just like it did in WOW when they introduced arena gear. Arena-garbed players would storm into regular PVP and there was no stopping them.

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Originally Posted by Tenku

You really don't read do you? Again.... you stated yourself.. there is a ALREADY a fail-safe system in place to make it so when there are no other 4 man parties queued, your 4 man premade will be put into the other queue that has non 4 man premades. lol. good night.

P.S. Look up the definition of fail-safe.

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The fail-safe NEGATES your solution. If the queue isn't there for premades, which it won't be most of the time most likely, then they end up in the solo queue to move the queue along. That's the fail-safe. It keeps all players from needlessly waiting an hour for a queue. In your proposal, this is mandatory, and you say it will be fine. I am telling you that it will not be fine because--especially for 2 man premade teams--odds are unfavorable they will find a complement team, so they will end up in the solo queue because of the fail-safe. So, if premades end up in the solo queue 90% of the time (or whatever) because of a lack of probability being able to pair them, then YOU'VE SOLVED NOTHING 90% OF THE TIME. Why waste the money or resources to implement something that won't readily work?

Further, 4m premades aren't ever going to be the norm. You'll end up with a few people doing them, and in the name of the fail-safe, they will still saturate the solo queue. Again, nothing has been solved.

Why do you think they have 2 different level 50 queues for?

Solo vs. Solo and premade vs. premade. Not hard, make 2 sep. Queues.

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Originally Posted by Davionx

Solo vs. Solo and premade vs. premade. Not hard, make 2 sep. Queues.

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That idea only works when there are enough premade teams to be matched up. What if there's an odd number of 4-man premades? That last team will be stuck waiting for an opponent. Not to put too fine a point on it but Jyoeru quite eloquently and intelligently put together several posts on why the idea simply wouldn't work or would cause more problems than it would solve. You have to account for partial premade teams (ie groups of 2-3) for a start, which means ultimately you're going to end up with a solo player filling slot number 4. Or do you simply not let them queue because of the odd-man-out?

Anyone who can count to 4 could figure out there are too many different team configurations to accommodate separating them in DF. Instead of moaning about how you're fighting a team which has good synergy, maybe you should work on your own team?