Think we'll get any Magic Tanks?

Now, I don't really know how well it would work out, but I primarily play magic based classes. Its a preference that I usually can't change no matter what I end up playing. Is there any possible magic based class that has potential to Tank in the future?

It really does seem like an odd question, but with buffing spells, spells to pull aggro and NOT relying on TP for things is something that has a lot of appeal to me XD

Only classes that come to mind right off are Red Mage and Blue Mage. While I haven't played many games where the Red Mage wasn't a glorified cross class Mage who couldn't excel in either magic arts and used weapons with medium to heavy armor, I've seen Red Mage appear in various threads. His jack of all trades like build I think would be cool as a Tank class, though I'm more than certain a good few won't agree.

Blue Mages have always been bulky when it came to Defense and HP. Two ideal high stats for a tank.

Sadly these are like the only things I see, though I don't know all of the various classes from the entirety of the Final Fantasy games. So I thought it best to ask. Are there any Mage classes that would make any good tanks? Something to look forward to in the future?


Seriously...1000 Characters is not enough.

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Originally Posted by XanderOlivieri

Seriously...1000 Characters is not enough.

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You can edit a post to break the 1000 character limit.

I don't really agree with RDM or BLU being tanks. RDM was never really particularly durable; it was only tougher than the other magi largely to be able to stab stuff rather than hang in the back. Any durability beyond that scope stemmed primarily from its ability to heal itself with the same spells that it healed other people with, as opposed to evasion, high defense, and/or high hp, which are really the defining traits of a tank class. BLU, on the other hand, was never really particularly tanky either. In most iterations, they were roughly on par with a RDM thanks to using similar gear loadouts (light armor and weapons) , often barely tough enough to eat the attacks that they needed to learn, though getting hit by the attack hasn't *always* been their method of acquisition (Khimari used Lancet and gained them that way and Quina just ate enemies to learn their abilities). I would expect RDM and BLU to be DPS, as opposed to tanks or even healers.

I think that a magic using tank is much more likely to be something like a Mystic Knight, which is a recurring job built around using magic to augment existing physical capabilities while wearing heavy armor. Even in the one iteration in which it was wearing light armor (Spellblade in FFTA2), it was still the most durable class for that race.

I'm hoping for a new "Fencer" class (Melee Support DPS, ST damage and enemy debuffs), which branches into a "Rune Fencer" job (Tank, stance reduces damage and adds +enmity/resistance. Abilities are mostly self-buffs. Cross-Classed with GLD for Provoke and Lancer for Parry buffs) and a "Red Mage" job (Melee Healer, stance reduces damage and adds MP recovery and Healing potency. Abilities are party buffs and healing. Cross-Classed with THM for Surecast/Swiftcast and CNJ for Cure/Protect/Raise/Stoneskin).

whm can already tank titan hm if geared enough.
not to mention summoner with titan-egi

I think transitioning Red Mage from GLA is fairly low hanging fruit. The design elements are all basically there already. But I don't think that's really what you're asking.

A Mage based Tank....let's see what we can build, should be fun.
I'm going to go with a THM job to save time and because they have some interesting abilities we can leverage as a tank.

The THM brings the following to the table High Dmg attacks, MP self recovery, Sleep.
What THM does not bring to the table is Enmity Management, Survival, and a way to handle incoming interruptions.

The Enmity Management is fairly easy, for the sake of brevity, we basically need Defiance, lets call it Radiance. + HP and + Enmity on Fire spells (+healing received as needed). The counter balance would be a -dmg % across all spells.
We're also going to need a way to mitigate damage and mitigate interruptions. I'm thinking a Barrier spell. Something that, when struck, costs you MP but prevents a % of dmg. Barrier, while in effect, also prevents incoming attacks from interrupting spell casts. (for balance, Barrier can only be used while under the effects of Radiance, or whatever you want to call it)

This plays into the last of the THM abilities, Sleep. Barrier has an inherent weakness, if the caster is getting hit by too many sources at once, it can overwhelm their MP pool, resulting in no more barrier and a vulnerable tank. So it's actually in the tanks best interest to use things like Bind, Sleep, and Slow to control the pace of battle.

So we've got Fire spells to get threat, Ice to keep MP, Barrier to keep you standing, and Sleep to keep the Barrier up. Not to mention the class already has access to 1 handed weapons and Shields, so we could drop into the GLA Cross class abilities for some more defense cooldowns and Flash.

So there you have it. Mage Tank job with plenty of room to add in flavor.

I'm sure the devil is in the details, but considering I came up with this all while writing this post, doesn't seem half bad.

If you were building a Class from the ground up and not just a job, I think it'd be even easier to pull together.

Isn't PLD already this? They're a tank, and they use magic (cures and stoneskin, protect etc.). I actually miss the flexibility of the old armoury system, where alot more skills were able to be cross classes. You could be a gladiator and use fire etc. which would maybe be more what you are after

I think the OP means a tank that uses spells as a primary means of attack and enmity control/ generation.

There really isn't a precedent for this outside of Paladin, who used cures to generate threat in FFXI. Rune Fencer in FFXI was a melee based tank that was specifically designed to tank AGAINST magic attacks, but they still used their greatswords and melee abilities to generate threat.

I actually see Fencer as a class that uses Greatswords that could branch into Dark Knight and Rune Fencer pretty easily. Here's hoping =)

Red Mage could get tanky if they buffed Stoneskin or Protect or gave them another magic ability that increased armor so they had the mitigation even if they were wearing medium armor, and that ability also increased enmity. I think they'd be a GLD job with Flash also getting buffed to be their primary enmity generator, with WHM and BLM being required souls to have access to their cross class abilities.

ANYWAY, there are a ton of different possibilities. I'm happy just playing the game for now and waiting to see what crazy stuff SE comes up with next.

I was thinking about this actually and i thought spell fencer/magic knight could make a good magic tank class. basically it would apply elemental buffs to it's weapon that give different effects, fire could deal extra damage for enmity generation, earth for a defensive buff, wind for attack speed maybe? I'm not sure, it's not entirely thought out but basically it would switch between these different buffs. It's classes would be GLA/THM and it would use small shields and sabers. Feel free to throw your own ideas at it, just a brief idea.

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Originally Posted by Tzain

I think transitioning Red Mage from GLA is fairly low hanging fruit.

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No, not really. The only thing remotely similar to Red Mage is the use of a sword. Otherwise, you have a bunch of tank abilities which resemble Red Mage in no way and no appropriate spells. You would have no use for Rampart, Sentinel, Bulwark, Convalesce, Awareness, Tempered Will, Flash, Provoke, Shield Bash, Shield Lob, or Shield Swipe, not to mention that if spells are more powerful than spamming RoH combo, you'd never use that either. 11-14 of 17 abilities would be useless to a Red Mage, and the rest are MP regen combo and generic DPS boost.

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Originally Posted by Tzain

A Mage based Tank....let's see what we can build, should be fun.
I'm going to go with a THM job to save time and because they have some interesting abilities we can leverage as a tank.

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Doubtful. Manaward is extremely limited in scope with a very long cooldown, and Aetherial Manipulation is the antithesis of a tank ability. High damage has nothing to do with tanking; quite the opposite, high damage is an obstacle to tanking balance.

When you need for a tank is:

Complete Enmity suite, comprised of single-target and AoE enmity abilities as well as enmity pull (3 abilities)
Complete cooldown suite (Manaward is already like Thrill of Battle -- need ~3 others)
Appropriate baseline strength, including +1000 base HP over THM, +25% eHP boost on top of base HP boost and all other HP, +150% defense boost, and +50% magic defense boost

For enmity, you can't hijack DoTs, you can't hijack abilities that can't be readily used, and you really can't hijack anything with an interruptible cast. The closest thing you could use for AoE would be Blizzard II, and that went from unlikely to hell no in 2.1. Bind effects in generally are not acceptable because you'd simultaneously flatline enemy damage output and maintain aggro -- everything in the game would have to be made immune to the Bind effect. Pulling is simple because all of your abilities are ranged, but your spells have (and need) cast times which a tank cannot afford. You would have to completely dump on Swiftcast, a cross-class ability, and make all spells uninterruptible right from the get-go. You can't use MP as your mitigation resource due to Manaward, which already does so. You cannot make a casted spell into your mitigation ability because you'd have to completely kill your enmity generation to use it. And the last thing you would ever use to survive is a resisted debuff. Immunity hell, redundant with other jobs in your party, and generally a balance disaster.

THM's design has a brick wall at every step for a tank job. You might try to hijack with AF/UI for defensive abilities, but it's not only chewing up your enmity resource to survive, it's also stepping all over Manaward. You can't deal with interruption without making Surecast pointless, and you have an ungodly-massive stat barrier for which to account. You lack the core functions of a tank out the gate, and you lack the mechanics for adding them.

(Then again, most of the jobs will need to be made nigh-unrecognizable from the class to second job. GLA and CNJ are great examples in that they can do nothing remotely resembling anything but what they currently do. I would not be surprised if SE simply canned second jobs entirely for the original 7 classes.)

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Originally Posted by Katchii

There really isn't a precedent for this outside of Paladin, who used cures to generate threat in FFXI.

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That's not really a precedent, that's just the funny result of FF11's abysmal design.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

(Then again, most of the jobs will need to be made nigh-unrecognizable from the class to second job. GLA and CNJ are great examples in that they can do nothing remotely resembling anything but what they currently do. I would not be surprised if SE simply canned second jobs entirely for the original 7 classes.)

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It depends upon how you define "nigh-unrecognizable".

LNC and PGL could both be made into tanks without *too* much mangling. Remove the positional requirements (and likely fold in the benefits as baseline effects), add some high enmity modifiers in their place, and they could be turned into tanks pretty effectively: they don't have too much in the way of DPS CDs (PGL just has Internal Release; LNC has B4B and Life Surge). MRD could be turned into a DPS without much, though its CD suite *is* a bit strong after the 2.1 buffs.

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(Then again, most of the jobs will need to be made nigh-unrecognizable from the class to second job. GLA and CNJ are great examples in that they can do nothing remotely resembling anything but what they currently do. I would not be surprised if SE simply canned second jobs entirely for the original 7 classes.)

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I'd only agree with Gladiator. Conjurer has 5 offensive skills to work with. Not a great kit but enough to form the foundation of a DPS build (and the thematics behind the class' questchain just screams geomancer). You'd just need to backload offensive utility into jobskills (probably with a 'kitchen sink' stance at 30). Clumsy until it gets its entire kit, maybe, but not significantly moreso than a low level scholar.

PLD should have been the magic tank but they failed on the MAGIC side.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

You'd just need to backload offensive utility into jobskills (probably with a 'kitchen sink' stance at 30). Clumsy until it gets its entire kit, maybe, but not significantly moreso than a low level scholar.

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It wouldn't really need a stance at all. The devs would just need to give the job high INT and low MND, similar to what they did with SMN. Giving a stance doesn't really serve a useful purpose and cuts the potential kit down.

The issue with giving CNJ a DPS job is that you're left with a class that has more wasted abilities than useful abilities and 2 wasted proc traits. You *could* turn them into an effective DPS job, but you're left with too many healer role artifacts. Of course, because WHM has no native CDs that are DPS useful, they would have to rely upon cross-class abilities for any kind of burst functionality, which, since they're rDPS, limits them to Raging Strikes, Swiftcast, and Surecast.

Anyone remember Geomancers? I used to love those guys.

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Originally Posted by Katchii

I think the OP means a tank that uses spells as a primary means of attack and enmity control/ generation.

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Yes this is what I was asking. A Tank class whose primary function is through Magic over Melee.

No I don't really count the Paladin as a Mage class. Even through history, yes they can use magic, but that is not their fundamental function. They are a Melee class that uses the divine. They can cross class with White Mages and use the basic spells from them, but then utilize their own physical skills as the main set for their build. Definitely more Melee than Magic. The basis of a Paladin is in a lot of other classes that can use minor magic skills.

I was wondering if a Magic centered Tank were possible in the future.

I never would have thought about a Geomancer being a Tank. They'd be healer or DPS but I'd find it both interesting and fun if they could make a Geomancer Tank.

Think creatively. Rdm was master of enhancing and enfeebling classes. SE could make rapier swords with magic dmg rather than physical. Actions could enhance attacks and combos could land enbeebles. Fast cast trait to speed up stoneskin and cure. Lets not forget phalanx. Enmity tags to hold hate. If se makes a base class for it, Dancer could be an analogue job based on how they worked in this fashion on ffxi.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It depends upon how you define "nigh-unrecognizable"... LNC and PGL could both be made into tanks without *too* much mangling.

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I certainly agree about LNC. MRD is also fairly well-suited to a DPS already, especially in 2.1 with the awesome utility provided. I do think that GLA, ARC, PGL, CNJ, and THM will require some pretty large changes to make the change to another job (no need to bring up this PGL thing again).

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Originally Posted by Sylari

I'd only agree with Gladiator. Conjurer has 5 offensive skills to work with.

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I'll have to defer to Kitru's evaluation here. You have 5 offense-related abilities and 8 healing-related abilities (Cure/2/3, Medica/2, Protect, Raise, Esuna), plus the stance which is only meaningful for a character built with MND and class traits for MND and healing which are otherwise totally useless.

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Originally Posted by AndrewAlexander

Think creatively. Rdm was master of enhancing and enfeebling classes.

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Only in FF11. Those roles have never been related to Red Mage in any other game. Rant aside, enfeebles are not tank-specific and are therefore not generally tank-appropriate.

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Originally Posted by Gamemako

I'll have to defer to Kitru's evaluation here. You have 5 offense-related abilities and 8 healing-related abilities (Cure/2/3, Medica/2, Protect, Raise, Esuna), plus the stance which is only meaningful for a character built with MND and class traits for MND and healing which are otherwise totally useless.

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Oh no I certainly agree it wouldn't be clean or very nice... I just think it's not impossible. I mean in that same vein Arcanists have only one healing spell (and nine offensive ones) and the wrong trait stats too and I've heard a lot of WHMs lately grumbling about Scholar being the better designed healer.

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Rdm was master of enhancing and enfeebling classes.

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Not... really. RDM is all about being the two core mages spliced together on a halfassed fighter. It might lend itself to a bard-esque utility DPS, but playing at tank (or this notion of a buffer/debuffer) run counter to the class' normal themes.

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Originally Posted by AndrewAlexander

Rdm was master of enhancing and enfeebling classes.

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Only in XI and that "mastery" was the bane of every Red Mage I've ever encountered. They hated the fact that a job that was usually the jack-of-all-trades mix of melee and magic was relegated to the back line as a debuffer and Refresh bot, because they were too squishy and dealt too little damage to put on the front lines. I'm pretty sure there'd be a similar riot if Square Enix forced Red Mage to, once again, be a back-line job.

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Originally Posted by Deifact

Isn't PLD already this? They're a tank, and they use magic (cures and stoneskin, protect etc.). I actually miss the flexibility of the old armoury system, where alot more skills were able to be cross classes. You could be a gladiator and use fire etc. which would maybe be more what you are after

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Paladins need more magic.. and then they are more different from Warrior and fix this issue.

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Originally Posted by Sylari

Oh no I certainly agree it wouldn't be clean or very nice... I just think it's not impossible. I mean in that same vein Arcanists have only one healing spell (and nine offensive ones) and the wrong trait stats too and I've heard a lot of WHMs lately grumbling about Scholar being the better designed healer.

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WHM has 6 offensive abilities. ACN has more offense than a pure healing design, but it's not actually that obtuse. ACN also has two healing abilities (Physick and Resurrection). The main thing is that ACN has, though, is a mechanic to hijack for making it into a healer. You tick all the necessary boxes as soon as you hit 30: normal heal, burst heal, baseline heal, AoE heal, enmity reduction (innate), combat raise. The weaknesses are addressed at 35 and 40 with AoE boost and cleanse. At 45 and 50, you hijack another mechanic (Aetherflow) to carve out a niche.

To me, a smooth role change requires either innately-appropriate abilities or readily-repurposed mechanics. CNJ is as vanilla a caster as it gets. There are no special mechanics to hijack, so you either deal with the current ability set (resulting in crap job), completely change spells (cure -> dia? Lol.), or ham-handedly ignore the ability set entirely (e.g. level 30: transform into bear!).