So are Crafting + Gathering jobs now -just- "support" jobs?

from: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...082#post172082

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

Hey gang. We have another set of answers here for your perusal. Unfortunately, this isn't the entire list as we're still going through and organizing/translating them. Sorry for the continued delay, and believe me when I say that this has been a learning experience for everyone involved (so many questions...) and we'll be working to ensure we smooth the entire thing out going forward.

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Please let us know the current direction of gathering classes.

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Along with crafters, we are defining it as a class that supports the battle classes.
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So this may have already been covered in other topics or in one of Yoshi-P's letters and I just missed it, but are crafting and gathering jobs now -OFFICIALLY- support jobs for battle classes like in FFXI.

I remember one of the "unique" things about this game at launch was the ability to main as a gatherer or crafter. And I thought this would have been one of the things that remained in the game to make it stand out.
Further all the current main missions are made to be completable by DoL and DoH.

So in expansions will missions only be able to be complete by DoW?
Can you no longer "main" as a gatherer or crafter (without missing all the new content)?

or what exactly does "supporting the battle classes" mean?

EDIT: To be clear this post has nothing to do with how the game should be. I am only asking if anyone knows how SE currently views crafting and gathering jobs....

I assume "Supporting" them entails in the fact that without you they wouldn't have Shit to wear or use or eat or even look at.

I'm all for Main story missions being battle classes only, was it really that fun having almost every mission have a "Lulz we can parlay with them" part to it?

I still see no reason that the philosiphy that one could "Main" a crafter or gathering class should go away, crafters and gatherers should get there own content to allow them to enjoy playing that class full time if need be. When will it happen or will it happen? We can't be sure yet, but they will focus on the battle classes first and foremost because I can guarantee there isn't a big % of the population that is going to buy this game at relaunch and say.

"Man I can't wait to main my cook!"

As they should be.

its not "as they should be" that matters.

SE should be straight-up about this so that players know whether or not gatherers and crafters will ever get endgame stuff or be able to solo missions in the future. Otherwise a lot of gatherer or crafter only players will get really annoyed when they find out the game has turned to a battle-class focus.

They also said that they are looking into making end game content for gatherers in the form of rare items, I imagine end game for crafters will be making rare armour/weapons/items.

It was a bad idea to have crafting and gatherering as main classes to begin with, looks like the new team have realised that and are trying to downplay both disciplines.

Save the copper, save the world

GATHERERS SHOULD BE ABLE TO USE SUMMONS EXCLUSIVELY TOO

Classes are not Jobs.

Please do not lock tools to the Weapon Class that unlocks them.

Honestly...if you started this game and told yourself...

"I am so excited about the story in XIV, how the Garlean Empire invaded Ala Mihgo and how the refugees are spreading all around the country now and why it happened and what's the initial reason for the Garlean Emprie to do it! Man I can't wait to kick their asses with my Royal Skillet!"

If people intended to start this game and be a Gatherer/Crafter as MAIN, they wanted to do it cause that's what they prefer. The game is giving you the opportunity to do just that, never touch a battle class and still be able to supply/maximize your rank on a gathering/crafting class. That was actually their main focus right from the start, they always said gathering/crafting classes will be fully self sufficient, they don't have to rely on Battle classes at all and hell they don't. This game could exist w/o any battle class in it and crafters/gatherers could still reach R50 just as fast.

That is about as much as you can ask for. I mean...what did people expect...it's already very nice and considerate for SE to implement stuff like special rare items that you can gather as part of "gathering endgame". Endgame as in fighting boss' in dungeons is prohibited to battle classes as it should be. I fully support having special gathering nodes inside dungeons that only high lvl gatherers can get items from, but involving crafters/gatherers in any type of battle content is just stupid and they realised that by excluding them from battle related story content thats coming in the future.

If Gatherers/Crafters want to be involved in endgame battles, battle classes could just as well demand to be able to gather/craft items...if you started playing as a gatherer/crafter main cause you thought you would be involoved in any kind of endgame battle related content, think again...Farmville would have been the better choice for you.

I think crafting and gathering is going to take a back seat under Yoshi-P similar to FFXI. Now to be clear, their might be more content for crafters, but it won't follow the trajectory I think that was laid out under Tanaka where you could pretty much 'main' crafting. Just my read of the situation.

If it takes a backseat they need to add autolevelling where you just throw your mats in and bang bang bang bang bang bang levels. Takes way too long in XIV to progress up a craft if it's just auxiliary. Just make it take money to powerlevel now, not hundreds of life hours.

What is OP looking for? Crafting raid content? I don't get it.

They said the recent Q&A that you WILL need a battle class to take part in upcoming story content.

Yes. Now shine my armor, peasant!

Gatherers supports Crafters supports Fighters

Which means they just help each others. Gatherers can help Crafters by providing them materials, then they can make equipment for the Fighters, which help Gatherers swift into gathering spots or killing enemies to obtain useful materials.
Now put it on a circle.

Did you see what I did there? FIRE EMBLEM STYLE!

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

from: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...082#post172082



So this may have already been covered in other topics or in one of Yoshi-P's letters and I just missed it, but are crafting and gathering jobs now -OFFICIALLY- support jobs for battle classes like in FFXI.

I remember one of the "unique" things about this game at launch was the ability to main as a gatherer or crafter. And I thought this would have been one of the things that remained in the game to make it stand out.
Further all the current main missions are made to be completable by DoL and DoH.

So in expansions will missions only be able to be complete by DoW?
Can you no longer "main" as a gatherer or crafter (without missing all the new content)?

or what exactly does "supporting the battle classes" mean?

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Crafters and Gatherers should be support classes. It was Tanaka's idea to have these classes become more important give you the ability to main as a DOH/DOL. But it didn't work out... they're boring. Yes it could be fixed but honestly theres only so much you can do with a carpenter. Plus they would need to create specific content for DOHDOL to make them interesting and that will never happen. DOM/DOW can both participate in the same type of content as they are battle classes. They won't double they're amount of work to come up with game content oriented for both DOH/DOL and DOW/DOM....

The original idea for DoL/DoH was that they could party with DoW/DoM and though not as skilled at fighting they would be able to provide different types of support in battle. It still says on the official site that Miner can weaken Gold type mobs or something like that. All of that was pulled before alpha/beta though so what we are left with is just the crafting and gathering aspects of the classes. That is why they are such a ridiculous grind as they were never meant to gain ranks solely from crafting and gathering.

I guess SE has finally decided to abandon the original vision of what those classes were meant to be and is bumping them back to down to side jobs/classes that you can do on the side of your battle classes.

This is supposed to be shocking news? :P

Gatherers are meant to fuel crafters who help gear up the DoW and DoM. That's what they're meant to do, why would the do anything else with them? I don't want to go out and kill stuff on my Fisher, that's why I have combat classes leveled.

Though, let's just hope they implement a system better than parley for crafters and gatherers lol.

I wish they had given DOH and DOL battle oriented abilities. By no means, let them equal the damage output of pure battle classes, but they should be able to participate in fighting. When FFXIV was introduced, this was the most appealing aspect to me. Being able to participate side by side in battle with DOM and DOW classes seemed really innovative.

I mean, it STILL says on the main ffxiv website on some of the DOH and DOL descriptions that they would be able to use abilities to help in battle.

(Gameplay >> Armory System >> DOL >> Miner) "In addition to their unexcelled prowess at throwing rocks, miners also use their skills to debilitate enemies with mineral compositions."

It also says something similar for blacksmiths.

I guess i'm just disappointed they never followed through with this idea, i thought it would attract a lot of players. I had friends that quit because they wanted to play as a crafting class, but soon found out that DOH and DOL weren't really classes like DOW and DOM are.


What i think SE should do now, is give DOH and DOL job specializations that would give them access to battle related abilities.

Ex: Alchemist >> Chemist which gives access to light attacks, and debilitating enemies with potions.

Actually it 'did' work out: Crafters and Gatherers are interesting in their own right. I know plenty of people who like spending their time crafting for hours on end while just chatting or doing whatever else it is they do. Heck, I prefer gathering over the slow pace of combat leveling often myself.

But yes, the problem was in trying to involve DoH/DoL in the actual mission progression of the game. Final Fantasy is a game about war, it's all fighting and combat, so it's not unthinkable to only open up the missions for combat classes.

As interesting as it can be to see what they make when they're not just involving fighting in the missions, it would also be interesting to see what they could do by 'making' you fight through parts of the missions.

As with most other things, DoH/DoL aren't as awesome as SE hyped them up to be. With the way they are now I see no reason to even have them as major classes. Should just be an on-the-side thing that you skill up.

This is exactly how they should be.

I don't know anyone who gathers or crafts who does not have a similar rank or higher ranked battle class. It must be pretty rare and you don't make your game suck for 99.9% of people just to cater to the 0.01%. That's where SE went wrong to begin with. This game has the worst set of story scenarios in the whole FF series and that's because SE wanted people who can't fight to be able to do them.

I would like to see crafting and gatehring behests. that would be nifty.

I really don't see a problem here. If crafters or gatherers want to participate in the main story quests they are free to level up a battle class to allow they to do so. They can still "main" as a DOL/DOH just as easily. Same goes for battle "mains," if they want to craft or gather they are free to do so without sacrificing their battle primacy.

I really don't see how people managed to turn this into a thread about -what- should be done when it was a simple question.

Tanaka had crafting + gathering as "main class" options.

All I'm wondering is if Yoshi-P has decided to go down a different route and make them less important than Tanaka had.

THATS IT. I don't care if its the right thing to do or why it was done.

I ASKED A QUESTION - AND NO ONE REALLY ANSWERED IT

these forums really make me rage sometimes lol

i am looking for OFFICIAL info on whether or not they have dropped the idea of DoH and DoL being a "main" part of the game.

No official info. Likely ambiguous translation taken to it's extreme extrapolation.

I mean screw it anyway right? There is no pride in gathering any more. Sad that I like the mining story the best of all of em, but mining is just my smiths' @!&$!. The whole discipline bows to the crafters, and the crafters to battlers.

Can't change the reality of that inevitability I suppose.

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Originally Posted by Azurymber

I really don't see how people managed to turn this into a thread about -what- should be done when it was a simple question.

Tanaka had crafting + gathering as "main class" options.

All I'm wondering is if Yoshi-P has decided to go down a different route and make them less important than Tanaka had.

THATS IT. I don't care if its the right thing to do or why it was done.

I ASKED A QUESTION - AND NO ONE REALLY ANSWERED IT

these forums really make me rage sometimes lol

i am looking for OFFICIAL info on whether or not they have dropped the idea of DoH and DoL being a "main" part of the game.

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I did answer, so... in yo face =D

From what I'm getting, crafters and gatherers have indeed been relegated to the sideline. This was not what was presented by Tanaka, but now must be a direction Yoshi-P is heading. And no its not how it should have been or anything, if you play the questlines for the classes, you can see nifty ways of using the classes, and it only takes a little imagination to find uses for these classes. I think this was the final word needed to decide that though.

I agree that the main story missions should cater to the DoW/DoM only and be designed with fights in mind... Seriously do you picture yourself fighting the "last boss" with parley? lol "Hey you big guy, why don't you just give up your fight and go back home?" and then you win! yay! ...

What they could do tho is have a different type of story/missions for crafter with different types of content. Sure let the DoL go parley to negociate rare mats and rare items. Let the DoH parley themselves to a rare anvil/place to craft so that they can make some specific type of gears. There is room for expansion for crafting and gathering classes, and on top of that it would add content for everyone since most people I know crafts and do battles, so yay for two types of content. You don't feel like partying to go out to battle today? Why no go solo on a crafting dungeon/mission?

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Originally Posted by Radaghast

As they should be.

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This. Gathering and Crafting classes should have been just that.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

I agree that the main story missions should cater to the DoW/DoM only and be designed with fights in mind... Seriously do you picture yourself fighting the "last boss" with parley? lol "Hey you big guy, why don't you just give up your fight and go back home?" and then you win! yay! ...

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Is it really that hard to imagine giving DOH/DOL battle abilities? Just something that would make them valuable to a party. Make it so they can weaken some of the bosses while contributing some dps or healing/buffing. And let them equip some abilities from DOW classes that they've leveled.

Everyone for some reason seems to be stuck on parlay as the only option for crafters to be involved in the storyline/quests... When the much simpler solution is to make them pseudo battle classes.

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Originally Posted by Perrin_Aybarra

... Seriously do you picture yourself fighting the "last boss" with parley? lol "Hey you big guy, why don't you just give up your fight and go back home?" and then you win! yay! ...

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Early fallout could be played this way, but it took a lot of attention--attention that a MMO maker just probably can't give in order to make it work. We're all ultimately here to fight.

They bit off more than they could chew. Noble effort, but one that probably should have had more proof of concept before diving in.

Clearly parley was going to be a flop the moment it was conceived, and no one stopped and said, "Wait, that's garbage."

Support role in the sense they have no role in combat other than repairs and supplying necessary items hopefully.

I'm not sure if someone has described what endgame content would be available for gatheres and crafters... I know there are suggestions like:

hey let's have miners mine a path for us... yeaaaah
No thanks

Would be nice for crafters to get together to build things, I think it was orginally planned to build ships and cakes?

I don't understand the players who thought they'd do endgame on Crafting and Gathering classes. They're supposed to be doing what their names implie. You craft because you want to craft, not because you want to fight epic battles. Fighing classes won't complain because they can't craft an item, so why could a Crafter complain when he can't fight a mob?

It would have been nice for Crafters and Gatherers to have their own path. What I mean by that is Crafting and Gathering oriented storylines that would be exclusive to them, just like Battle oriented storylines are for those who fight. While that would be awesome, it's impossible to see it happen in the current state of the game.

I'm not sure any crafter or harvester player expected to do end game content. Not sure where some of the posters here are getting that from.

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Originally Posted by Nilheim

I don't understand the players who thought they'd do endgame on Crafting and Gathering classes. They're supposed to be doing what their names implie. You craft because you want to craft, not because you want to fight epic battles. Fighing classes won't complain because they can't craft an item, so why could a Crafter complain when he can't fight a mob?

It would have been nice for Crafters and Gatherers to have their own path. What I mean by that is Crafting and Gathering oriented storylines that would be exclusive to them, just like Battle oriented storylines are for those who fight. While that would be awesome, it's impossible to see it happen in the current state of the game.

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Well, with the information before release, SE was making it sound like crafting classes were no longer going to be in the background/a hobby. Crafters would be able to participate in the main storyline missions, and i guess a lot of us expected that to be battle related content.

And the reason some crafters are complaining, is because SE said that some of the crafting classes would have abilities to debuff the mob, playing an active role in battle. However, there hasn't been a word on the subject. If they're not planning on doing it, they should at least take it down from the main ffxiv website.

Blacksmith's Role

Look on the right side, underneath "Role"

when the game was first released tanaka was pretty clear that crafters and gatherers would be integrated into endgame and would be able to complete missions without needed to level a dom/dow. That was a huge complaint from a lot of people because by going down this road the main missions weren't epic at all.

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Originally Posted by zoozoo

Well, with the information before release, SE was making it sound like crafting classes were no longer going to be in the background/a hobby. Crafters would be able to participate in the main storyline missions, and i guess a lot of us expected that to be battle related content.

And the reason some crafters are complaining, is because SE said that some of the crafting classes would have abilities to debuff the mob, playing an active role in battle. However, there hasn't been a word on the subject. If they're not planning on doing it, they should at least take it down from the main ffxiv website.

Blacksmith's Role

Look on the right side, underneath "Role"

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Yeah I know what you mean, I remember them talking about Miners granting an increased drop rate for metal, ores, etc. or something. You have a point. Unfortunately they couldn't make it work and had to gimp storyline missions because they couldn't deliver on those promises. Working from where we stand now, it only makes sense for them to go back to more traditional ways instead of changing the only (fragile) balance of the game.

I don't recall SE ever claiming crafters/harvesters would be included in endgame. I remember them stating crafters and gathers could be included into parties, which is why they were 15 man, and they could use abilities to help the battlers while they did their thing: craft and harvest.

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Originally Posted by Wynn

I don't recall SE ever claiming crafters/harvesters would be included in endgame. I remember them stating crafters and gathers could be included into parties, which is why they were 15 man, and they could use abilities to help the battlers while they did their thing: craft and harvest.

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this would suggest endgame would it not?
further the fact that you can do every mission without levelling a dom/dow is a pretty clear indication that they were meant to be main classes and not support/side classes like in ffxi
and further there was the whole giant cake and airship group crafting stuff.