Primals and Egis

My friend and I, both arcanists who trained as summoners, have two contradictory views of the Primals and, by extension, our egis. I'd like to share both of our thoughts, in hopes that someone would be able to confirm what parts are actually canon, if there is any on the topic.

Thank you very much in advance for any input you might have =D

EDIT: Because of posting limitations, some definitions here:
True Primal - the essence of the primal (Garuda, Titan, etc...) as they exist in the aether without physical form
Primal - The True Primal once they manifest physically
Egi - A less powerful physical manifestation of a True Primal

Neutral Primal Thought
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The Primals themselves, as they exist in the stream of aether, are mostly or completely neutral in regards to personality, and are merely aligned with the flow of certain types of elemental aether. That is, Garuda is not particularly violent any more than the wind is continually violent, but possesses the potential of a calm breeze or terrible gale.

Sticking with Garuda, when the Ixal call her, they themselves desire a force of violence (to use against Gridania) and so the Primal Garuda is horribly violent.

When a summoner calls Garuda-egi, they pull from the True Primal in a similar way to create a smaller, less powerful manifestation. Because of this, the actions of the beast tribes do not directly effect the True Primals. (That is, our egis would seem no different now, with "extreme" primal battles as when we were in the story battles)

Violent Primal Thought
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In the aether, the True Primals are violent creatures. Garuda, in particularly, being blood thirsty, and Titan being incredibly protective.

The beast tribes, by worshiping the Primals, are changed by them. The Ixal become more violent, the Kobalds more defencive, etc...

Because of this, our egis are changed as the beast tribes become more desperate and sacrifice more crystals, etc..., because the True Primal is driving the beast tribes to call them back to the world, and therefor our egis would likewise grow more violent, defencive, etc...

When Ifrit is summoned, it is shown they retain their consciousness in the aether. They are who they are independently of who summons them.

I would call an egi a weak and brain-dead primal manifestation. Did you ever had a conversation with an egi?

Hmmm, from my understanding the 2nd theory is closest to the truth. I say this because of the Primal's ability to temper.

The Sylphs for example summoned Ramuh after the Calamity and this physically and mentally changed them. They are now purple colored and are fiercely territorial and go out of their way to try and have their untempered kin brought into the fold. This all suggests that the Primal changes their worshipers, not the other way around.

I agree with theory personally, especially after seeing screen shots of the neutral beast tribe factions that will be coming in 2.1, and how much they differ form their tempered brethren. And seeing the trailer for the King Moggle Mog XII fight, and how the moogles's pom poms differ form normal moogles which highly suggest they are tempered too, it makes me wonder what physical changes can undergo other races who are tempered by a primal of another race.

And I know this sounds fanboyish, but I would hope getting tempered by King Moggle Mog would result in mooglefications X3

The way I see it, the summoners are really evokers or conjurers (not in the XIV sense, but in the general sense) that form the egi creatures from aether with the same aspect and flavor as the actual primal. From what I gather, the egi are created from a very tiny fragment of the actual primal's power and built up around that with aether.

For scholar it's a bit different, as Eos and Selene are actual independent entities rather than poorly-made and vastly depowered copies of the original.

See, I'm already eyeballs deep in my own theory on the matter. Instead of seeing yours through my lenses, here's my theory on the subject. You can compare it to the two you've provided as you will or reject it entirely. ^^

So far, I'm inclined to say that aether is pure, formless potential for energy and life. If you focus on this energy and manipulate it in the correct manner, you can form life with thought. This would be how carbuncle comes to be. The Arcanist focuses on the mathematical breakdown of what carbuncle is and shapes the aether accordingly. If the Arcanist wants fierce, offensive Carbuncle, they shape it one way. If they want a stonewalling, defensive Carbuncle, they manifest it the other. We see something similar with the scholar, however the memories accumulated by the faeries they summon are stored in the job crystal they carry. Thus, if you use someone else's job crystal, you're using an already-established faery consciousness.

If my theory is correct, this would be how Louisoix summoned the power of the Twelve. He carved their symbols into stones and asked us to make a pilgrimage, praying to them and filling the aether of the land with the messages of our prayers and images of the deities we believed in - and then twisted it to his will like an arcanist and used it to attempt to bind Bahamut. Is it mere coincidence that we prayed to symbols on stone and they manifested as symbols in the sky? Who knows what they would have looked like if he summoned them fully - an amalgam of our own mental images of them and personalities we ascribe them?

If my theory is correct, this would be what primals are. The beast tribes develop a culture around their environment, where the aether naturally shifts towards a certain elemental aspect. In the hot deserts of Thanalan, where the aether more easily imbalances towards the aspect of fire (notice all those fire sprites hanging around?), they create a mythology of their god. When they, like the arcanist, gather a great deal of aether together and focus their prayers and hopes upon it (as the ascians, under the guise of the Paragons, taught them to do), the primal takes the form of their prayers. Think of it like an unnatural concentration that is a stark contrast to the natural, consistently diffuse nature of the aether. Their power and existence depends on consuming aether, so they consume and hoard as much as possible to become dominant and self-preserve against other primals and threats to those that summoned them. Killing them diffuses the aether back into the land, nourishing it, but the essences and prayers remain. Elder primals would thus be essences from long ago, not actively kept alive by the prayers of their worshipers, but either diffuse amongst the stream as memories or alive in the world, undefeated.

So what are Egi?

If my theory is correct, those who have fought primals retain memories of their power and abilities. The summoner calls forth blank aether concentrations, like with carbuncle, but inheres their memories of a primal's power into this creation and gives life to the puppet. However, they must first show that they can dominate it, or, like the primal it was born from the memories of, it will fight them tooth, nail, and claw. This would be why only those who have fought a primal can summon primal-egi... they have the memory, the experience, to inhere into the aether as prayer does. In the summoner storyline, then, what we saw was an Ascian giving Tristain the memories and experience required to summon an elder primal-egi, possibly empathetically taken from the Summoner job stones he had Tristain collect.

These are just my thoughts, though...

It wouldn't be the first time I came up with something that made a lot of sense and was totally wrong.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

If my theory is correct, those who have fought primals retain memories of their power and abilities.

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I love your explanation, but have to object to this.

If you follow the events of the Summoner quest line chronologically with the events of the main story line (ie. you were to look at them as if you were doing them at the same time), then this theory falls apart as soon as you hit Lv45 and proceed to unlock the Garuda-Egi.

Story-Mode Garuda (which you do as early as Lv44) does not summon Suparna and Chirada, but the Garuda-Egi that you fight does. If your theory were correct, Garuda-Egi in that fight should not have been able to summon Egi versions of Suparna and Chirada, because we would have had no idea such a thing was possible until fighting her Hard Mode variant at Lv50.

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Originally Posted by Nahara

I love your explanation, but have to object to this.

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I think it's still possible that most of the explanation is correct, but it's just slight different?

We fight story Garuda and gain her crystal and knowledge of her powers and abilities. Not all of her powers and abilities, but enough to basically reach out and connect this creature we're created with the "essence" of Garuda. Then, having connected our puppet to true Garuda, she can then use all of her abilities, but because of the relative power of her "container", those powers aren't as powerful as when she is called by the Ixal.

While the -egi battles are similar to their primal counterpart, there are differences in each (iirc). For example, I could have sworn Ifrit-egi called out a bunch of fire sprites during our fight, but not in the story (or hard mode). Obviously they should be able to, but the choose to against the summoner, but not against the group.

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Originally Posted by Niniyo

For example, I could have sworn Ifrit-egi called out a bunch of fire sprites during our fight, but not in the story (or hard mode). Obviously they should be able to, but the choose to against the summoner, but not against the group.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Fire Sprites that were in that fight were naturally drawn to the rampant aether in the surrounding area. Could have even been a backlash and formed from said aether. I don't think they were summoned, per se.

Also, Moose, I am actually in line with you way of thinking on aether and the primals. Just one thing bothers me: The primals have memories.

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

I dunno. Part of this is sleepy-Wolf talking, and the other part is me not having full access to the cutscenes to back myself up. I'll do more theorizing over here. *wave*

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

Now this wouldn't really be such an issue, as if the primals are thoughtforms, as you say, they could just be remade with the same memories. But I do believe (and I can't check right now as the game is down) that Ifrit and Garuda recognize you the second time they see you in the main scenario. Now, those memories could have been summoned, as the Amal and Ixal were present at the defeat of their god, but I'm not sure that they would have fit defeat into their theology very easily. I don't have an answer to this, other than when the idea of Ifrit and Garuda is placed into the aether, it stays there permanently and is, for all purposes, life among the essence of life. But I'm getting kind of crazy here, so I'll stop it there.

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I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

Norondor take note that the Scholar fairies (in particular Eos I believe) also have memories of their own. They are summons like the others but as moose said, it seems like the ones who devised them found a way to store their memories in the job crystals.

Which is actually something that fits the primals and their memories. Notice how every beastman camp has this gigantic aetheryte. Who is to say that, perhaps even as a safety measure to ensure continued existance, the primals haven't devised such things to maintain their particular aetherial essence safe and moderately cohese after a defeat?

They don't just have memories. They have "conversations" while in the aether. Ifrit makes it clear.

http://youtu.be/GR_E5qtgpGs

They have conciseness of their own and an independent existence.

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Originally Posted by Toranja

They don't just have memories. They have "conversations" while in the aether. Ifrit makes it clear.

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Possibly. They clearly do have memories, but this conversation with the Paragon could have simply been during a past summoning. This quest is almost identical to its Version 1.0 equivalent, but in that version we didn't know what the echo was or who gave it to us or what ascians were. We were simply investigating the "sighting of a paragon" in the Amalj'aa's domain. They might have simply had the conversation earlier.

My theory definitely lacks some of the specifics I'd call required, though. Mostly, I'm just musing :P

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Originally Posted by Norondor

I still think this fits! If we assume they're formed from the ideas and myths and sensations of the tribe summoning them, they probably ought to pick up on their summoners' memories to some extent, oughtn't they?

The primals cleave to the traditions and beliefs of the beast tribes -- Titan's bitter distrust, Garuda's lust for carnage, Ramuh's imposition of the forest's justice -- and if they're still stinging from your earlier triumph over their conquering god, that memory and desire for revenge might come across once they're summoned anew, I'd expect!

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That may be true, but it still makes it an impossibility that they are created anew every time they are summoned. They have recollection of previous events, personal views on them, et all. Something the zealot summoners of the beast tribes likely would not be brazen enough to do. Though, I do think that you're on the right track.

No, I am beginning to think that aether is just life-stuff. Garuda existed in Ixal legend, as far as we are told, about 500 years prior to her first summoning. And it is widely known that the Ascians taught the beast tribes how to summon. I am beginning to believe that they 'taught' them how to 'summon' by giving them the knowledge of how to access large amounts of aether and romantically spicing up creation methods using aether. Aether that was released at Silvertear Falls by Garlemald. Whom they, in turn, were guided by the Ascians to do so.

So the Ixal create their goddess from the aether, who is made purely thereof, but is just a piece of life among the rest of the aether.

I think I just came to the detailed conclusion that Moose came to months ago. Oye.

Anyway, where does that leave Egis? I think memories, and the recent introduction of the beast tribe quests, can help us understand that.

In the summoner quest line, it is stated that that you needed to triumph over the primal in order to command some of its power. That, as was mentioned previously, implies that you need to have been exposed to them in person. Similar to not being able to teleport to some place you've never been to. You need knowledge of your goal in order to achieve it.

Now, most recently, in the beast tribe quests, the leader of the Amals that you are aiding (sorry, game is down again and I can't check specifics like names and spellings.../blush) states that he can detect Ifrit in your aura, so he has little doubt over your claim of defeating him. This means that contact with the primals does indeed leave some sort of marker on you, and it sounds like it's the stench of aspected aether.

So now I know what Garuda looks like, I know how she fights, I have experienced (rather painfully) the effects of wind-aspected aether. I've also got her stench on me. Now, doesn't that sound like a great start to making my own Garuda? Now to just head to a heavily wind-aspected environment, focus on my memories, and cheat.

Yes, cheat. Arcanists make magic happen by being smart, not by dipping into personal aether wells or the aether of the environment. Carbuncle happens because it would have happened anyway, I just figured out how to make it happen when I want it to.

So now I use the same techniques when creating my own Garuda. I take some already-existing aether, form it how I like, suppress it, and assign it to myself (via my Garuda-stink). Now, whenever I need it, I can summon my little Garuda whenever I want, as it already exists within the aether as a form of life that I shaped right from the aether. I just need to make it happen.

If I hadn't come across Garuda, had the Ascians not influenced the Ixal into creating her, had the Ixal theology of hundreds of years ago not thought her up, and if I used the same method I mentioned earlier, my wind Egi could look like anything. Typhoon, perhaps or Valefor. It just looks like Garuda because that's what I have come to believe is wind aether, so it heavily influences my memories.

Arcanists play with the aether to ridiculous levels, yet, they have absolutely no impact on the aether balance because they aren't changing the flow of aether. They're just taking what is already there and making what they want out of it. Arcanists are kind of like gods, to be poetic about it.

Funny enough I was hoping that the summoner quests would give us more lore on the primals and egi's their history etc. Oh well who knows they may expand the job quests when they add new job skills.

Plus I would not call it a stench in the quest it says when you beat a primal some of their aetheric essence is trapped in your body. I think its similar to what ultima weapon did to the primals but smaller I mean looking at how they die and all that aether spilling out everywhere not all of it goes back to the land (going by the lore that is said in the monk quest and the monk does something similar to power up and get stronger) so the people present during the defeat absorb some of the aether that is spilling out when they "die". The npc who helps you become a summoner pretty much says you got a piece of them in your body a small piece and that is what you summon. So everyone who beats a primal(who survives) has a piece of the primal within in them sitting there waiting to be summoned.

I also think they are aware considering how titan protects you without you even summoning him and the npc during quest says you have to show them your strength for them to accept you as their master. I also bet they are pissed off at you kicking their butts when you first summon them so that can be another motivator for them trying to kill you. ;)

You'll have to pardon the terminology, as I was going mostly off of the quest I most recently completed and remembered more about (the Amal beast tribe quest).

...And, in any case, I just like my version better. Right or wrong. :D

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Originally Posted by shinros

Funny enough I was hoping that the summoner quests would give us more lore on the primals and egi's their history etc. Oh well who knows they may expand the job quests when they add new job skills.

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Yeah. I'm glad that we can all share our thoughts at least. There are many different little points, subtle things at times, but I think that it's helped me gain a better understanding than I had initially at least. =)

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Originally Posted by shinros

I also think they are aware considering how titan protects you without you even summoning him...

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That's a good point, and something I forgot about o.o

It's particularly curious though, and it brings up a question for me.

So we have Tristan who's summoned Ifrit-egi, and we have Titan-egi suddenly appearing to protect you from Hellfire.

But here's the thing. Titan-egi protects you, which makes sense, and follows from defeating them and having them accept you, but Ifrit-egi is attacking you, despite the fact that you'd also defeated him, and he's accepted you.

Is this because Ifrit-egi is a /different/ Ifrit-egi, and so Tristan's has never fought you before, and so has no loyalties to you?
OR
Is it the "same" Ifrit-egi, but, having been summoned by Tristan, his loyalties lie solely with him, and so he says "fight" and Ifrit-egi fights?

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Originally Posted by Niniyo

Is this because Ifrit-egi is a /different/ Ifrit-egi, and so Tristan's has never fought you before, and so has no loyalties to you?
OR
Is it the "same" Ifrit-egi, but, having been summoned by Tristan, his loyalties lie solely with him, and so he says "fight" and Ifrit-egi fights?

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This leads me to believe my earlier theory again. Thanks!

Why, if we don't have personal Egis, would Ifrit-Egi attack us? Wouldn't that conscious, semi-intelligent portion of Fire-aspected aether acknowledge us as a superior and halt its attack? Could we have a command war, each trying to yell at Ifrit-Egi to kill one another?

Also, if you happened to use your own Ifrit-Egi in the fight...I dunno. I'm skeptical, but I'm still in line with believing the Egis are self-made. There's also too much we don't know about primals and the aether to draw any real conclusions. :confused::confused::confused:

Hence me saying that I wished the summoner quests actually gave us more lore on the primals and the egi's since most of the quests came down to a power grab and dealing with an insane guy who did not lend anything to the story. The only interesting part was that ascian appearing at the end I wish to know more about that.

Not wishing to throw cold water on any of these interesting ideas debated here, but I've been looking through my screenshots taken so far in ARR, and I noticed some interesting dialogue in a discussion with Minfilia and Thancred in the cutscene that occurs following story-mode Ifrit's defeat, which goes into the true nature of the Primals, how they are formed, and the actual process of summoning, which hasn't really been stated yet:

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Originally Posted by Main Scenario Quest 'Lord of the Inferno'

Thancred: "Now, aether exists throughout creation. It flows through all life, and permeates the very air that we breathe. Alas, this alone will not suffice to sustain the likes of Ifrit. Nay, he and his kind require a more concentrated source of aether-crystals."
Minfilia: "It is for this reason that incidents involving crystals can often be traced back to a Primal."
Thancred: "Which leaves us with the why of the abductions. To understand this, you must first understand how Primals are born. When all is well with the world, Primals possess no physical form. Their essence is dispersed across the great river of aether."
Minfilia: "However, when the world is plunged into chaos, those who worship the Primals cry out to their gods for deliverance from suffering. These cries serve as a beacon towards which a Primal's essence is irresistibly drawn. It is this coming together- or 'aetheric coalescence'- which grants the beings physical form. Once born, a Primal gains strength from it's followers' worship. The more numerous and fervent they are, the more powerful their god becomes."

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So basically, this explains not only how Primals can be defeated and then be endlessly re-summoned as though nothing happened, it also serves to explain the egi version used by SMNs - they are literally just a mere sliver of a Primal's essence, as a Primal's potency and power is directly linked to how many followers they have. A single summoner just doesn't have that same power of zealousness behind them, no matter how strong they may think they are mentally.

Which of course brings us back to what are essences and so, what's up with Moggle? Which beings us back to strawman theories, which brings us back to in-game evidence, lol. If the Ascians were able to teach the same method used to summon primals to moogles so that they'd summon a bedtime story, either there's more to summoning than Minfilia thinks or there's more to Moggle than she gives them credit for. The main reason my theory stuck with the former is because it better explains Louisoix, fits in with an obscure clue Fernehalwes gave once upon a time, and makes me think harder.

It could very well be as simple as Minfilia says, though. We'd do well to not forget that.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

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I don't know. I believe all that really implies is that Summoners (SMN) worship the Primals and the minor form of the Primals, the Egis, is their prayers manifest. Granted, one would still need to defeat the Primal in order to have their aetheric mark on them, but what is to stop, say, the Tempered from summong Egis? One could argue the Soul Crystal allows us that power, possibly by exponentially increasing the power of our prayer through previous owners of the crystal?

I'm not wont to think this is the case for SMNs, however. We use magic and knowledge of aetheric properties to call forth the Egis, not elaborate prayer. At least, that is not what has been going on in the job quests. Or, rather, if it has and I missed a whole lot, I'm gonna be pretty upset. :P

Now, I can wave my arms around and theorize all I like, but we still don't have enough data, despite being explicitly told in your quote, to draw and formal conclusions. Which sucks, because theorizing is fun. :D

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

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Honestly there is very little difference between prayers and commands. It's simply the mindset that separates them. SMNs use commands to summon forth the Egis because they believe that Primals are beneath them. While the beast tribes regard them as gods that are above them. It's all about perspective. I imagine the tempered could summon Egis if they wanted to, they simply don't know how. Remember, the player character is very skilled at what they do. Summoning is actually very difficult to accomplish.

Just a note on summoning...
Summoning, far as I know, is an allagan art.

The Allagan were actually quite... Adept at binding and controlling entieties. Ultima Weapon could absorb and use primals as fuel, there is what you realize at the end of Turn 5 and there is, also, the possibility that Midgarsormr was dragon of near godlike power (though not a primal, still a living beast) enslaved by them.

Perhaps there is more to summoning than we notice.

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Originally Posted by Skies

Perhaps there is more to summoning than we notice.

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I believe this is probably the case. The Ascians are the Paragons the primals speak of, correct? I think it's very interesting that the primals all have such a hunger for aether and corrupt their beast tribes, and that Moggle, summoned in the same way, has a similar effect on the moogles. Although not a primal in the strictest sense, perhaps it's the method of summoning that makes things bad to the point where we need to put them down.

I believe that we'll learn something along the lines of the neutral theory, and that the Ascian summoning methods are distorting the primals from their true nature. As to what that nature is, I can only speculate that it's something more noble and pure than what we end up seeing.

Not sure if anyone has brought this up since there are too many pages to read, but there was a quest that told a tale about garuda not being bloodthirsty or "evil" by any means, but a great deity for her ppl. It was only after she battled a defeated, then I believe devoured a serpent to protect her ppl she went mad and had a thirst for blood. So that kindda blows the violent primal theory out since it proves not all primals are violent

Ah, but that story about Garuda isn't necessarily true - it's one told by the Ixal and is full of symbolism about their own hatred towards Gridania ('Garuda went insane after battling an evil serpent' - the Twin Adders are the symbol of Gridania) - remember, the Ixal tried settling in the Black Shroud but were expelled by the elementals (presumably before Gridania was founded, back when the elezen still dwelt underground in Gelmorra), and regard both the elementals and the Gridanians as interlopers on 'their' land. It's the cause of their hostility towards the forest nation, and Garuda just inflames the situation.

Like all myths, there is usually a shred of truth to it at first, but over time stories become twisted by constant being retold, and each new telling having new ideas and elements added to better fit 'current' ideas or sensibilities, or even just for dramatic effect. It's clear the Garuda story is very much this to a tee.

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Originally Posted by Enkidoh

[T]he Ixal tried settling in the Black Shroud but were expelled by the elementals (presumably before Gridania was founded, back when the elezen still dwelt underground in Gelmorra), and regard both the elementals and the Gridanians as interlopers on 'their' land. It's the cause of their hostility towards the forest nation, and Garuda just inflames the situation.

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This is actually one of the reasons I wondered if there's could be an influence from summoner to summoned. That is, the Ixal feel as though their home has been taken from them, and, over time, have become more and more violent and desperate to get it back. (In the Gridania story they talk about the Ixal targetting the tree, which seemed like a new, rather brazen, thing they were trying to do both against the elementals and Gridania.)

(cont from above) I don't know how to properly word it, but it sort of makes me wonder about their devotion? Like, at first they may have felt like, oh these elezen won't pose a problem, and called to Garuda, and while she came, she was rather weak comparatively, and the Twin Adders were able to defeat her. Now they're much more devoted, much more angry, and the Twin Adders seem to have no hope of challenging her, seeking out the Scions when she reappears.

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Originally Posted by AnimaAnimus

Not sure if anyone has brought this up since there are too many pages to read, but there was a quest that told a tale about garuda not being bloodthirsty or "evil" by any means, but a great deity for her ppl. It was only after she battled a defeated, then I believe devoured a serpent to protect her ppl she went mad and had a thirst for blood. So that kindda blows the violent primal theory out since it proves not all primals are violent

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In addition to Enkidoh's post, that would imply that Garuda existed as a goddess before she was summoned by the Ixal. Now, yes, this is what the Ixal believe, but the Ixal only gained the ability to summon her recently, as it was seemingly impossible to do so without the seal on Silvertear Lake being broken by the Empire.

You could say, "Then yes, Wolf, she did exist," but then that would mean that that myth about her was from before the seal was placed on Silvertear Lake, which was, what, the Third Astral Era? Maybe earlier? Did the Ixal exist then as we know them today? We don't have an exact date as to when that myth was supposed to take place, and since Garuda couldn't manifest while that seal was in place, I'm gonna chalk it up to horse-hockey.

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Originally Posted by Niniyo

In the Gridania story they talk about the Ixal targetting the tree, which seemed like a new, rather brazen, thing they were trying to do both against the elementals and Gridania.

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If I remember correctly, it was the Ascian paragon of the Ixal that commanded them to attack that tree to destroy an important crystal by allowing Garuda to consume it.

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

In addition to Enkidoh's post, that would imply that Garuda existed as a goddess before she was summoned by the Ixal. Now, yes, this is what the Ixal believe, but the Ixal only gained the ability to summon her recently, as it was seemingly impossible to do so without the seal on Silvertear Lake being broken by the Empire.

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This is one of the original bits of confusion that led to my theory about primals being thoughtforms - that all it takes is your belief in something to be able to summon it, regardless of whether or not it ever actually existed. The Ixal chose the Twelveswood (Tinolqa) as their home 550 years ago, and even then they worshiped Garuda, the Empress of Birds. After they began to summon her, however, this title seems to have disappeared in favor of The Lady of the Vortex, which relates to the wind aspect of her summoning crystals more than anything in her legend. Of course, part of this drives me in a different direction than my own theory - the Ixal lost their feathers about 150 years ago after roosting in Xelphatol and began to worship her more zealously because they believed the Empress of Birds could return them to the sky - one of their motivations for summoning her in the first place. I always wondered if perhaps Garuda's "essence" had something to do with that misfortune, which would imply that she indeed existed at least as an essence before 1562. Then again, perhaps she didn't exist yet and something in Xelphatol is what caused their transformation. I tend to go in circles with myself on this topic.

I just can't grasp how all of the primals we've seen from prior to the Sixth Astral Era are referred to as Elder yet somehow our current ones existed in some form before 1562, a time in which the physical and aetherial realms were in balance and primals could not exist, if it's not belief-based. Until I see something contradicting it, I just can't let go of the idea that there's something to the thoughtform theory, that the primals are physical manifestations of zealous belief, mere icons... or eikons...

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

...that all it takes is your belief in something to be able to summon it, regardless of whether or not it ever actually existed.

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I really, really believe in pizza...and smokin' hot 10/10s. :cool:

I am starting to form my own theories on the Elder Primals and how they relate to the primals (if at all) but I'm not sure I have all the information I need to come to a conclusion. Mainly, where the Elders came from, but I don't suppose that is information we'll be handed any time in the near future.

I, too, think the Garleans had the right of it calling them eikons...

Ugh....Mooooooooooose......*whine*

I....I just watched the original CGI for 1.0. It showed the Primals (Ifrit and Titan) shooting out of the busted seal at Silvertear during Derplanders Echo-jaunt. That kind of implies that they existed within the seal. I can't believe I forgot about this.

Was this ever glossed over, or does that punch a whole in the theory? Unless, of course, they continue to exist, as I originally thought, within the aether as lifeforms after being created. In which case, the beast tribes might not be all that wrong in deifying them, considering they have been around a long time and created by an earlier civilization (the...the Allag?), but they are certainly not gods.

I just really hope it was symbolism. Really, really hope.

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Originally Posted by Wolfandre

Was this ever glossed over, or does that punch a whole in the theory?

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All of our theories on that matter are so thin and based on so few pieces of big info that anything can be accommodated into the theory. Even the part I said randomly on a whim, that "hey, maybe people die and their thoughts and memories and beliefs create these essences in the stream!" can be explained away with "the seal prevented them from ever leaving it!" Honestly, all of my theories on this matter are mostly blind and probably wrong, but I needed to start somewhere. If you're super bored, Fusionx and I go over that very issue, primals in the seal, in that podcast we did not long ago. It seems Allagan, and we know they had the power to seal primals due to their binding Odin in crystal under a spring, which seems a lot like binding them in Mor Dhona under a lake, no? Ultima, too, could trap them. Long story short - I have no idea what's up with any of this and I just like exploring things that sort of fit at random until we know what it's not.

A few puzzles pieces we can identify over here... a few ones that don't connect to them over there... maybe a picture forms in the blanks over time.