WAR is IR worth it after the nerf?

I just read over the patch notes. Although I am happy about the warrior buffs, We got hurt in 2 areas, 1 being itemization and the other being IR.

IR as of 2.1 is a 10% increased chance to crit, down from 20%

Since we wont be hanging onto wrath stacks as often, that 20% became immensely more valuable; however, it is being nerfed.

I think I'm still going to use it (only because the alternatives are horrible), was hoping mantra would get a decent buff to make it relevant as a cross class skill.

What are the thoughts of the community on this?

I was also hoping War itemization would be getting addressed but sadly that wont be the case. Allgalan axe and the war myth gear and allgalan gear provide much less desirable stats than their pld counter part peices.

What itemisation change hurts us?

As for Internal Release, 10% crit chance is still a 5% damage buffwhile it is active and 1.25% damage buff overall. Not amazing, and we probably don't care if Inner Beast crits anymore. I'd consider swapping it out for something else. Maybe Second Wind?

Not much else is there. Guess we could at least Berserk then Second Wind, and pretend that we Inner Beasted.

Erm... Problem is what would you take if you didn't take Internal Release? There is no place for Flash now, even useless in 2.1 with the Overpower Enmity buff.

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Originally Posted by TaneshimaPopura

Erm... Problem is what would you take if you didn't take Internal Release? There is no place for Flash now, even useless in 2.1 with the Overpower Enmity buff.

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Um... what? Flash is still a must, even on single targets.

- It uses mana, not TP
- It doesn't have a wind up (instant)
- It does not require a target
- It is 360 degrees
- It works while pacified

I consider Flash to be one of 3 non-negotiable cross-class skills. The other two being Featherfoot and Provoke.

EDIT: I'll add Convalescence as the fourth non-negotiable, and actually this should be more important than Featherfoot, but less than Provoke.

A Berserk Second Wind in i90 gear might manage to crit for 1k or so. Fair bit lower in DL gear. Non crit or non-Berserk (can't always line up Berserk and when you need a heal, unless it's to predict an incoming hit) is fairly lackluster. Just ask a dps how much Second Wind heals them for.

The cross-class options are rather lackluster for the final slots, but it's still better than the PLD options so I guess we shouldn't complain too loudly, heh.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

Um... what? Flash is still a must, even on single targets.

- It uses mana, not TP
- It doesn't have a wind up (instant)
- It does not require a target
- It is 360 degrees
- It works while pacified

I consider Flash to be one of 3 non-negotiable cross-class skills. The other two being Featherfoot and Provoke.

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100% This.

Level a Warrior to 50 without using Flash even if I can cross class it, Tank Turn 1-5 with it without using Flash. I don't see why I have to take it now, I don't see why I have to in the future. Target swapping is way more effective for 2-3 mobs, I'd only consider Flash if its an in between 4 mob which I have to keep in line. If you're spamming Overpower and your Enmity is 90% ahead of others 15 seconds after Mob pack pull you are doing it wrong cause you're just TP starving yourself for over the top Enmity you don't need.

I wouldn't say totally no to Flash either, since most people are accustomed to it. However, my experience without Flash makes me capable of handling situations without it. IF you want to complaint lackluster cross-skill first look at Awareness, which till date and probably 2.1 is still not fixed.

I used flash during levelling because lots of people wanted to sleep mobs (and didn't know how to push and mark them). That's the only serious use I can see to flash, and I gave it up since doing endgame.

Like Taneshima just said, Flash is meaningless. It's even a bad choice, because as you flash, you waste a GCD. You're not building any wrath when flashing. On any mob packs, you're better building wrath to pop Steel Cyclone, which deals good damage and will now generate enmity (so we can now open packs with double SC ^^), and on bosses you're better getting damage reduction from IB up asap.


Anyway, the point of cross-class skills is to be versatile and to adjust to your target.
There will be a couple situations where flash have its uses, there will be situations where IR will be good, and there will be situations where you'll want all defensive skills, even mantra or awareness :p

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Originally Posted by Nalou

Like Taneshima just said, Flash is meaningless. It's even a bad choice, because as you flash, you waste a GCD. You're not building any wrath when flashing. On any mob packs, you're better building wrath to pop Steel Cyclone, which deals good damage and will now generate enmity (so we can now open packs with double SC ^^), and on bosses you're better getting damage reduction from IB up asap.

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By no means is it a bad choice to use flash.

It's faster than overpower, 360 and I don't have to waste as much time getting into position initially for hate. I can flash, grab hate on a a group of mobs while getting in position to overpower. All so the initial AoE attack from someone doesn't yank hate away because I was trying to Over power first. Flash shouldn't be spammed, nor can you spam it as a war. But that initial hate on a lot of mobs can save a lot of headache for everyone.

Overpower is on GCD and doesn't build any wrath lol. Flash is less likely to be used on a single target fight but when you have to grab multiple targets, flash for initial hate is better than anything you have for time efficiency and you don't need a target to use it. Hell, example would be in turn 4 when you can flash before a knight/soldier even drop and have aggro on them or on one and already be moving to tomahawk the other for the sense of urgency in keeping people from getting hit by either one. In fact, using flash doesn't interrupt your combo linking, so I can flash one and drop butchers block in the other for a huge hate lead.

Well, I was more saying this for people spamming overpower/flash and totally ignoring the wrath/hate building combos. These are probably not the people doing BC, but mostly people doing dungeons from lv 30 to AK/WP farm. And fact is flash is bad for all these.

I also said the point of cross-class skills was to be adjustable depending on situations. So there will always be situations where flash is handy, and there might even be situations where flash is needed. You seem more advanced in end-game that I am, so you might know situations where flash is a really clever move... that doesn't mean it's one for the vast majority of the game nor for the majority of people reading these boards.



You have some really good and intelligent reasons to use flash (combos, anticipating claims), and some totally wrong reasons like lazyness in positionning/pulling which sounds wrong.

The problem is people have this attitude that theres only ONE DEFINITIVE WAY TO GEAR/PLAY WARRIOR OR NOTHING ELSE!

Warrior is a versatile tank, we can MT or OT, we'll be able to tank trash mobs easier/more efficiently now, give a 10% dmg reduction to our PLD MT or for ourselves if we are MT/ etc.

Look at all of our gear possibilities, we have Determination/Parry/Skill Speed/Crit build to chose from for each different situation. Why do you think there are people who value Gryphonskin instead of pure allagan accessories or vice versa?

Variety folks, look at our abilities/cross class abilities, they let us pick and chose depending on the fight/boss mechanics/etc

Examples

Turn 1 I don't NEED Flash or Provoke, I time a Butcher's Block combo and use Butcher's Block on the 2nd snake and bam, established hate. I'd rather have Featherfoot/2nd Wind/Awareness/something more useful for snake.

Turn 2 I use a more DPS oriented setup gear wise, why? we cant parry in turn 2 or dodge so I take off Featherfoot and put something more useful like 2nd Wind and put on more "DPS oriented" gear I use Provoke/Internal/Conva/2nd Wind/ Awareness or Mantra

Turn 4 dont NEED provoke, only flash (Which may change with the steel Cyclone Enmity buff and can use something more beneficial to you or party like mantra)

Turn 5 as OT WAR I don't NEED Full Vit Accessories, I go DPS Accessories and can survive. If you are MT WAR for Twintania then yeah I can see wearing more Vit Accessories.
etc etc

TL: DR There's no one definitive way of how to gear/play warrior, don't be detrimental to your group simply because of your ego and that you want to MT EVERYTHING. It all depends on fight mechanics/group communication/your playstyle and other stuff.

Why would you utilize more DPS oriented gear for t2 when you have a stacking debuff?
Generally curious about that choice, since I've found from personal experience stacking vit was better overall.

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Originally Posted by Nalou

You have some really good and intelligent reasons to use flash (combos, anticipating claims), and some totally wrong reasons like lazyness in positionning/pulling which sounds wrong.

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It's nothing to do with laziness, Flash's 360 radius is a large advantage in both speed in acquiring aggro and in range, where you couldn't hit all the mobs you need without spending precious time moving to different sides.

Ooooook, Second Wind>IR

IR is better for DPSing, without a doubt. Second Wind is potentially better for tanking. Wait for 2.1 and we'll see.

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Originally Posted by Darthvoltrius

Turn 1 I don't NEED Flash or Provoke, I time a Butcher's Block combo and use Butcher's Block on the 2nd snake and bam, established hate. I'd rather have Featherfoot/2nd Wind/Awareness/something more useful for snake.

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You should never use Awareness, whether as a WAR or as a PLD, because it prevents you from getting crit by *any* ability used against you, which includes heals. Since the only thing that bosses use that can score crits is their auto-attack while pretty much *everything* your healers use can score a crit (the only exceptions are flat percentage abilities, like Lustrate, Benediction, and Stoneskin), Awareness actually hurts you more than it helps you. I've taken it off of my bars for PLD and don't even think about wasting a cross-class slot on it for WAR.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Why would you utilize more DPS oriented gear for t2 when you have a stacking debuff?
Generally curious about that choice, since I've found from personal experience stacking vit was better overall.

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I use my Gryphonskin / Rose gold earring/ Allagan Feet (for the 11 det) and a allagan dps accessory

I have 7.7k hp in party without food, 8k with food so I still maintain survivability. Do you have a SCH? They are amazing for Warriors man, I love my SCH :D

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Originally Posted by Kitru

You should never use Awareness, whether as a WAR or as a PLD, because it prevents you from getting crit by *any* ability used against you, which includes heals. Since the only thing that bosses use that can score crits is their auto-attack while pretty much *everything* your healers use can score a crit (the only exceptions are flat percentage abilities, like Lustrate, Benediction, and Stoneskin), Awareness actually hurts you more than it helps you. I've taken it off of my bars for PLD and don't even think about wasting a cross-class slot on it for WAR.

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True, I honestly mainly use it like almost right at the beginning when I'm tanking my snake, since it has 0-1 stacks, or in turn 4 phase 5-6 they won't hit hard but I think of it as a "just in case it crits me" and only lasts 15 secs but yeah I've been thinking of using Mantra more often than Awareness even though its a measly 5% its still better overall

I can see Awareness being situationally useful for PLDs, I mean you've got to have the ability anyway, may as wlel use it for something, even if it is just making certain that a single attack doesn't crit at a bad time. For WAR though, it isn't worth losing the cross-class ability slot.

Turn it on to ensure that the auto-attack immediately following the large hit doesn't crit, then turn it off early. I think a lot of people forget that you can cancel buffs early (Berserk is another one that it is sometimes good to do this with).

Awareness kills critical healing though so its never useful.

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Originally Posted by Darthvoltrius

I use my Gryphonskin / Rose gold earring/ Allagan Feet (for the 11 det) and a allagan dps accessory

I have 7.7k hp in party without food, 8k with food so I still maintain survivability. Do you have a SCH? They are amazing for Warriors man, I love my SCH :D

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Scholars are even better with PLD.
I am not sure how you're hitting 7.7k with a party and 8k with food if you only have allagan boots.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Awareness kills critical healing though so its never useful.


Scholars are even better with PLD.
I am not sure how you're hitting 7.7k with a party and 8k with food if you only have allagan boots.

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My bad, wasn't being clear. I have essentially 2(3 to be honest), a tank set (which is really more of a hybrid build because allagan tank accessories are a myth for my group but if u need mnk/drg accessories join us! lol) and a dps focused set.

On my tank setup with defiance I have 7.8k outside of party and 8.1k in party without food, this is with gryphonskin accessories/rose gold earring

On my dps focused set I have 7.3k hp with defiance up and 7.5k hp in party. I use this set for turn 2 and 5 with defiance off on the turn 5 during conflag phase (6.1k hp with defiance off). This is with Hero's belt/Maiming Ring/Earring/Neck/Gryphon ring/Gryphon Wrist/Allagan Feet

you know ib might still be okay if the healing bonus actually applies to it since before heals weren't calculated on your bonus because you dropped staccs

Since Internal Release is getting Nerfed, My 2.1 Set up will be Flash, Provoke, Convalescene, Feather Foot, Mantra

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Originally Posted by Dlewis1986

you know ib might still be okay if the healing bonus actually applies to it since before heals weren't calculated on your bonus because you dropped staccs

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Self healing is unaffected by healing modifiers, which is why you can get the full benefit of Bloodbath/IB while under the effects of disease on the WP/AK bosses, and why Bloodbath/IB always provided the exact same amount of healing per point of damage even if you had Convalescence up.

Was using Second Wind, but the reason for this was using it while buffed with Maim/Berserk/IR. 1.1k crit heals were pretty common, not sure if that's going to be the case now though, only time will tell

I've never used flash and never felt that I had to have it. I use IR, SW, FF, Provoke, and Convalescence. Mostly use SW while zerk and IR are up, not because they are amazing but because I've never felt that I needed flash. True the bonus of Flash being MP based is nice, but I've really only had issues with Relic+1 dps when it comes to threat.

Given of course, my opinions are apparently moot since i've not been in turn 1 yet.

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Originally Posted by Otho

Given of course, my opinions are apparently moot since i've not been in turn 1 yet.

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I never saw a use for Flash until I got into Coil. Flash is the fastest/easiest way for the OT to pick up the snake after Cad splits, and Overpower is *way* too slow on picking up the adds on t4. The utility for a WAR in Flash comes not from the enmity it generates or that it's a spell (if you really need to generate some extra enmity while you're pacified, you're doing something wrong); the utility of it is in the fact that it animates quickly and doesn't require a target, which lets you pick up stuff while it's loading and before it's decided to run off and punch a healer.