Samurai, why Tanks?

Can someone explain why samurai would be tanks?

Samurai - brought a big sword for 1 hit kills, walked around in cool looking armor but was definatly not designed for any long drawn out fights, nor for deflecting many blows, but to kill before killed.

Ninja - known for being hard to catch and evading attacks which makes a lot more sense for a tank. Also one of these guys would actually have the stamina, manouverability, and dexterity to keep fighting for a long time, without relying on blocking like PLD or just manning it up like a WAR.

Who said that Samurai's would be tanks? I would think Dark Knight or something like that would be the next tank class.

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

Who said that Samurai's would be tanks? I would think Dark Knight or something like that would be the next tank class.

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SAM and DRK both keep popping up over and over in both the tank and dps forums. Couldn't tell you why, though.

Samurai armor is very bulky; perhaps that applies to the tank's mind eye.

We have enough dps classes.

Samurai were considered protectors of their masters, and that correlates with tanking.

It might be down to the armor been quite large and bulky giving them a tank like look and so people think tank.

I don't think DRK will become a tank but SAM is kind of questionable it would not be to hard to see it been a tank or a dps.

I picture SAMs doing massive one hit damage and DRKs doing damage over time with life drains and such mixed in then possibly having massive damage chained attacks. NINs would be really cool having as tanks imo. Evasion tanking is always nice to have around!

SAM and DRK (and later in the game MNK) were the two primary tanks in 11. (Late 2007-2013)

SAM was originally designed as a parry tank. They had high EVA too and then later Seigan etc.

DRK started out as a fragile DD but with the addition of high end PDT, Apoc drain/haste and dread spikes it was the ideal tank in 11.

It's impossible to compare the two games but that is where the references come from.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

SAM and DRK (and later in the game MNK) were the two primary tanks in 11. (Late 2007-2013)

SAM was originally designed as a parry tank. They had high EVA too and then later Seigan etc.

DRK started out as a fragile DD but with the addition of high end PDT, Apoc drain/haste and dread spikes it was the ideal tank in 11.

It's impossible to compare the two games but that is where the references come from.

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I dont know what version of 11 you played but these were never things.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

I dont know what version of 11 you played but these were never things.

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Taint is actually correct. Did you even play during that time?

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

I dont know what version of 11 you played but these were never things.

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Troll attempt?

Are you seriously trying to logically explain why Ninja, historically the equivalent to a modern spy, should be a tank instead? FF11 made dumb mistake with ninja that we don't need repeated. Maybe Samurai shouldn't be a tank but Ninja sure as hell should not be a tank over Samurai.

I have no idea if SAM was originally designed to be a tank in 11, but I do know SAMs that were properly geared with a proper haste TP build set + STR WS set blew everyone out of the water when it came to DPS parses up until Abyssea. GTK for errything and then you just pulled out your Tomoe for flying targets and spammed Pentas into it.

If they made SAM a tanking class wouldn't it be a copy of WARs? I mean they use katanas which are two handed weapons and dress in heavy armor. We have that already. I guess they could make SAM evasive tanks like they would NINs in the end... Maybe make them a Dexterity based tank? Just throwing ideas out there.

In FFXI SAM was brought in to be a tank.. Ninja was brought in to be a dps... It did not turn out that way.

If you take a close look at earlier FF series, you'll see that SAM actually is more of a tank. There are numerous threads regarding this matter on this forum. You'll find them.

I personally like to have another tank, one that tanks completely different than the current ones (maybe a parry/evasion tank).

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Originally Posted by Megido

Samurai - brought a big sword for 1 hit kills, walked around in cool looking armor but was definatly not designed for any long drawn out fights, nor for deflecting many blows, but to kill before killed.

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Apparently you only know what a samurai is through anime because Iaido (i.e. the practice of drawing a sword to make a single definitive attack) is really not something that was done in real combat; it was a meditative and/or ritualistic practice. Assuming that you want to abandon the historical role of the samurai as either mounted archers or heavy cavalry using spears/lances (much the same as European knights), the most common/famous schools of Kenjutsu (i.e. Japanese sword combat) actually emphasized dual wielding, with the katana in the main hand and wakizashi in the offhand (the pair of which were referred to as the daisho and were the trademark equipment of a samurai) while others emphasized a two handed grip that evolved into kendo. Neither of the overarching styles of kenjutsu emphasized one-hit kills, mainly because they are so laughably rare to actually get in a fight (unless you're fighting someone incompetent) that you would be an idiot to only ever take those.

Virtually all styles of Kenjutsu emphasized *defense* as opposed to offense (compare this to the German school of two-handed sword combat called Langschwert that emphasized offense *entirely*) mainly because even a slight blow could be highly debilitating and end with you dying later on. Little blows that whittled your opponent down were what won you fights, not the big ones (which were really just finishing attacks when you had already beaten your opponent to the extent that they could no longer defend themselves). Miyamoto Mushashi (i.e. the most famous/successful/prolific Japanese swordsman of all time) created a school that utilizes a technique/stance for fighting multiple opponents that have surrounded you wherein the combatant spins in a circle with the blades on spread apart so that you can defend against as many attacks as possible (interestingly enough, this technique emphasized parrying with whichever blade was closest to the target and following it up with an attack from the far weapon as you spun around; the constant motion gives you the momentum to quickly follow up a parry with a counter).

As to the armor, you're similarly wrong. Armor that isn't intended to deflect or absorb blows isn't armor; it's clothes you're expected to die in. It wasn't full plate on the scale of European armors (not because they didn't want to be covered in solid plates of metal armor, but because Japan is not an iron rich land mass and plate armor takes a crapton of iron to make; what little iron Japan did have was *really* low quality as well), but it was still designed to take blows. The flamboyant appearance was both functional (it was lacquered to protect the metal and leather from rust/deterioration due to Japan's moist climate) and psychological (the kabuto helm was designed to instill fear in opponents, hence the demonic appearance of most face masks).

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Ninja - known for being hard to catch and evading attacks which makes a lot more sense for a tank. Also one of these guys would actually have the stamina, manouverability, and dexterity to keep fighting for a long time, without relying on blocking like PLD or just manning it up like a WAR.

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Ninja weren't ever known for being anything remotely close to being a tank. A ninja that had to fight had failed at the first thing about being a ninja: blending in and not being seen. Historically, ninja dressed in peasant clothes so that no one would notice them. The idea that ninja dressed in what we now think of as "ninja garb" is actually a modern invention that grew out of kabuki theater (the get up was actually what was worn by stagehands so that they would blend in with the backdrop and not be noticed by the audience; any ninja or assassin that was supposed to pop up out of nowhere would be wearing the same stuff as the stage hands so that the audience wouldn't realize that they were actually an actor).

Ninjitsu is as much a combat style as it is a movement style like Parkour. For combat, Ninjitsu emphasized fast surprise attacks and ambush and instructed you to *never* take part in any engagement that could become drawn out (i.e. hit and run) because drawn out fights would alert the guards and get the lot of you outnumbered, cut off from escape, and killed/captured. There were a substantially larger number of techniques for moving about unseen/unheard at a variety of speeds in a variety of situations. Ninja didn't even use katanas, largely because they were so bulky (katana are actually remarkably heavy swords that were relatively long for a weapon designed to be able to be used in one hand), but also because they were single purpose; the "ninja sword" that people think of was actually a short (averaged around 1.5-2') straight (katana/wakizashi were curved) single edged blade which allowed for easier concealment as well as additional uses for the scabbard (they were open on both sides so that they could be used as a blowgun or breathing tube for hiding underwater; some were reinforced to be used as rungs on a ladder). The other token ninja weapon (besides the shuriken, of which there were 3 types, none of which were anywhere *near* the massive things that popular culture evolved them into) was the kusarigama (a chain with a weight on one end and a scythe on the other) that was another case of "tool and weapon combined".

The only possible way that you could envision Ninja as a tank class is if you watch Naruto and think that *those* are actually ninjas rather than a massive caricature of a single aspect of them.

Ninja were spies and assassins trained in espionage and unfair tactics. Most of the time they killed without ever getting within arms reach of their target by poisoning their food/water/etc., and, when they *did* have to fight, they always tried to do it on their own terms and ran away from anything that could possibly be seen as a fair fight (why risk dying when you could run to live another day). Most of their jobs, in fact, involved stealing information rather than engaging in any kind of combat. Most of the time, they hid in plain sight rather than running around in dark clothes (black actually makes you stand out at night because you're darker than your surroundings) with face masks.

Samurai, on the other hand, were trained warriors who stood on the battle field in flamboyant armor so as to attract attention and instill fear in their opponents. They were trained to fight off multiple opponents and engage in drawn out battles. They were supposed to be brave and stoic, even in the face of outrageous odds. They were huge fans of duels and other one-on-one confrontations (Miyamoto Musashi was reknowned to have taken part in over 60 duels).

In no way should ninjas ever be tanks; the very idea is in conflict with what a ninja actually is (and, thankfully, the ARR devs have actually said that ninja will never be a tank in this game). Unless the devs think that samurai should run around in cloth armor they wore in court instead of the lamellar that they wore in combat (which would be like having a knight running around in a tunic and tights instead of heavy armor), samurai makes a *much* stronger case as a tank rather than a DPS.

Also, random point of interest, the code of Bushido and much of the "historical" descriptions of samurai that many people bring up in reference to samurai in the current age was actually a modern invention by the Japanese Empire at the turn of the century when nationalistic fervor took hold of the nation and samurai were hailed as examples of Japanese chivalry rather than the roving warlords, culturally protected bullies, or celebrated and often corrupt policemen that they actually were historically (similar to how European knights are generally thought of in the sense of the Arthurian Tales rather than the people that had a "Thirty Years War" and a "Hundred Years War"). The *ideal* of the samurai was relatively constant (honorable warrior in service to his fuedal master), but, in practice, the ideal was the exception rather than the rule.

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

I dont know what version of 11 you played but these were never things.

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Troll, it has to be.

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Are you seriously trying to logically explain why Ninja, historically the equivalent to a modern spy, should be a tank instead?

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That wasnt really the point of my post. But if we get an evasion tank, it would make the most sense to me if it was on a ninja, not on a samurai. And for samurai to be dps. Also well, evasion tanking seems a lot more unique than another parry/block job or not-nerfed WAR lifesteal tank.
I see this discussion all the time and the only reasoning i ever got was 'cool armor' or 'just cause'.

And yes when i heard people talk about ninja tanks i raised an eyebrow as well but it still makes more sense than a samurai. The lesser evil, one could say.

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Originally Posted by SirTaint

SAM was originally designed as a parry tank. They had high EVA too and then later Seigan etc.

DRK started out as a fragile DD but with the addition of high end PDT, Apoc drain/haste and dread spikes it was the ideal tank in 11.

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There we go, now it makes a lot more sense. Thanks.

Why are warriors tanks? It's the same concept.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

The only possible way that you could envision Ninja as a tank class is if you watch Naruto and think that *those* are actually ninjas rather than a massive caricature of a single aspect of them.

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I liked this little snippet. Isnt that the show with people summoning fireballs and monsters? Sorry but that would fit really well into final fantasy, especially since those things are already here in the game. It would be really unthinkable that a Ninja would have a skill to increase evasion by 40% amirite? Featherfeet, that's sooooo naruto.

I'll read the rest when i can get past the parts with snide little undertones.

Holding enmity is the polar opposite of what a Ninja is.

I hope they do bring in Samurai, and I hope to God that it will be a tank. I'd love to play a SAM without it being flooded with every other DPS type player (read:80% of the current population).

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Originally Posted by MomoOG

Are you seriously trying to logically explain why Ninja, historically the equivalent to a modern spy, should be a tank instead? FF11 made dumb mistake with ninja that we don't need repeated. Maybe Samurai shouldn't be a tank but Ninja sure as hell should not be a tank over Samurai.

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Also, SE didn't intend for Ninja to be a tank when it was implemented into FFXI.

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Originally Posted by Megido

I liked this little snippet. Isnt that the show with people summoning fireballs and monsters? Sorry but that would fit really well into final fantasy, especially since those things are already here in the game. It would be really unthinkable that a Ninja would have a skill to increase evasion by 40% amirite? Featherfeet, that's sooooo naruto.

I'll read the rest when i can get past the parts with snide little undertones.

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I'll tl;dr;

Samurai - two french guys wearing expensive clothes and scary dragon emblems on the back, dueling with guns
Ninja - the butler who poisons both of their tea so the winner of the duel dies anyway

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Originally Posted by abzoluut

If you take a close look at earlier FF series, you'll see that SAM actually is more of a tank. There are numerous threads regarding this matter on this forum. You'll find them.

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I could just as easily point out that Tactics had Samurai being a magic-based DPS class. >_>

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Originally Posted by Megido

I liked this little snippet. Isnt that the show with people summoning fireballs and monsters? Sorry but that would fit really well into final fantasy, especially since those things are already here in the game. It would be really unthinkable that a Ninja would have a skill to increase evasion by 40% amirite? Featherfeet, that's sooooo naruto.

I'll read the rest when i can get past the parts with snide little undertones.

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The whole point of your original post was to point out historical/logical reasons why samurai doesn't make sense as a tank. When people use your own logic of history to explain why ninja makes far less sense of being a tank over samurai you then jump to naruto and how this is fantasy game and so its okay for anything to happen? In that case you don't have an original argument to begin with because its a fantasy game and so samurai can be anything. Maybe they should be healers.

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Originally Posted by Merylx

Troll, it has to be.

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Why is everyone calling him a troll? I've played XI 2004-2009 and don't ever remember people asking SAMs to tank. Except maybe for Valkurm Dunes. Ugh the dunes. /shudder

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Originally Posted by TaalAzura

I dont know what version of 11 you played but these were never things.

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Only because people refused to adjust. SAM was designed with the highest parry rating out of the jobs. Its weapon skills had easy-to-stack mods and their gear originally leaned towards high parry with STR supplementing. Since parry mechanics in FFXI were garbage people used it as DPS, taking advantage of the easy mods on their weapon skills (the design combined with gear swaps meant SAM ended up doing a ton more damage that other jobs, specially once people discovered how store TP worked). It was easier to veer it towards DPS over having to fix how parries worked, figuring out a better mechanic for SAM tanking AND admitting they were wrong. This was Tanaka's FFXI, and at that time they never admitted they were wrong, much less clean up their own messes.

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That said, I like the idea of a SAM tank. I'd probably base it off the WoW Monk's stagger mechanic (basically damage taken is split by half into direct damage taken and a stacking self-DoT called stagger. The design revolved around parrying stuff and managing your stagger stacks so that damage taken would not overtake heals tossed at you by the healer).

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That said, I like the idea of a SAM tank. I'd probably base it off the WoW Monk's stagger mechanic (basically damage taken is split by half into direct damage taken and a stacking self-DoT called stagger. The design revolved around parrying stuff and managing your stagger stacks so that damage taken would not overtake heals tossed at you by the healer).

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How they do SAM is probably going to be heavily influenced by what kind of SAM they're going with because there are 2 fundamental archetypes of the samurai that they could go with: the samurai wearing flamboyant armor who gets by on intimidation, strength, and sturdiness and the samurai wearing normal clothes and defending themselves entirely with their skills with a sword. It's kind of like the difference between a fencer and a knight.

A SAM built around wearing heavy armor would, in all likelihood, be STR based with a lot of self buffs and debuffs generated by kiai and other forms of intimidation (which would probably be their "shtick"; they could even operate as tank with support functionality with a mechanic like this, reducing their own mitigation/enmity/damage to improve the performance of others). A SAM built around wearing light/no armor would most likely be DEX based and, mechanically, be a parry/evasion tank by necessity; in all likelihood, have some form of controllable dramatic increases to parry and other forms of mitigation (akin to Inner Beast providing a burst of DR) possibly derived from katas (e.g. there are 3 combos, each of which provides you with a passive buff of some kind that can stack up to 2-3 times; they are provided with 3 job abilities that consume one type of said each and provide a dramatically increased condition of the consumed stacks for a short duration after; this wouldn't hit the same problem that Wrath had pre-2.1 because you'd still have the other 2 buff types active).

Much of the implementation for any class depends heavily upon what vision the devs have for a given class. They made WAR follow the noble savage/barbarian archetype, as opposed to the emotionless/focused weaponmaster that other games make them out to be, and the abilities followed suit. They had WHM designed to be more akin to a druid rather than a cleric/priest (nature magics and whatnot) which heavily influenced the story and base class. We won't really know what the devs imagine one class to be like until they release it (or explicitly tell us about it, like they've outright said that NIN isn't going to be a tank if/when it's introduced).

Kitru, your comments about Samurai and Ninja are fairly accurate, although we also have to keep in mind that Samurai changed significantly over time, including their weapons and, eventually, their armour.

Nevertheless, there's little point getting into debates about it since FFXIV is a *game* and has no real requirements to base their classes/jobs on reality.

If they wanted to make their Samurai in heavy bulky armour and as Naginata-wielding tanks, then so be it. Similarly, they can make them gi-wearing dual-wielding DPS if they so choose.

In other words, you're right in your second post: there's a wide range of variety they have to choose from, so it's also impossible to determine which way they're going to go with things. All we can do is speculate based on previous FF games which, also, have a lot of variety in how classes/jobs have presented.

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Originally Posted by Aaramis

In other words, you're right in your second post: there's a wide range of variety they have to choose from, so it's also impossible to determine which way they're going to go with things. All we can do is speculate based on previous FF games which, also, have a lot of variety in how classes/jobs have presented.

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The intent of my first post was to correct the OP on his belief that NIN would make a better tank than SAM based upon their real life counterparts. Where their real life counterparts are concerned, NIN makes absolutely no sense as a tank whereas SAM makes a *really* good case for being a tank. It's entirely possible that SAM will be implemented as a DPS job, but, if one of them is going to be a tank, it's damned well *assured* that it would be the SAM and not the NIN.

The second post was simply there to describe how there are multiple possible implementations of SAM that are based upon entirely different (though still historically accurate) depictions.

Kitru have my babies please.