Is there a point of doing something harder than turn 5?

I see a lot of people complaining that CT is easier than coils so its not worth doing but is there a point of doing something that's harder than T5?

Lets say instead of giving us CT, they gave us coil 6-10 with each turn progressively harder than Twintania so people don't do anything 'easier'. It took BG 2.5 months to complete twintania, we can assume T6 would take them 3 months to complete and T7 would take them 3.5 month to complete etc, etc.

Is that what people want? Hammer their head on bosses for the next year over grinding newer but less powerful gear?

People (or rather, "the minority" as some people like to call us) want well tuned encounters, encounter they can progress on, encounter with new and interesting mechanics that can be considered a challenge (bosses tuned for groups of full ilvl 90/capped gear). To adress your "less powerful gear": a new raid tier (Coil T6-10) usually brings new and better gear than the previous raid tier.

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Originally Posted by Kicoe

People (or rather, "the minority" as some people like to call us) want well tuned encounters, encounter they can progress on, encounter with new and interesting mechanics that can be considered a challenge (bosses tuned for groups of full ilvl 90/capped gear). To adress your "less powerful gear": a new raid tier (Coil T6-10) usually brings new and better gear than the previous raid tier.

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Less powerful gear refered to ct. Well tuned bosses is not an issue as bg commented that twintania is perfectly tuned. The point was if T6 is another twintania tuned boss, then people will be stuck on it for another 3months.. That would mean no new tier gear for another 3 month for a minority and no new gear for a whole year for the rest of the players.

Wlakiz have you played and raided in other MMOs? Just because the final boss is very hard doesn't mean the whole next tier of raiding will be. It is common that the final boss is much harder then the rest of the instance, and they can give us bosses that could take a week or two with another final boss that takes a month or so and I am sure most raiders will be happy. Heck turn 4 was easier then turn 2 IMO, but every guild is different, and some people find some things easier then others.
So turn 6 doesn't have to be harder then turn 5 to fit into the flow of boss fights that most raiders are use to dealing with. The main issue I think you are referring to is that people in all 90 gear will most likely destroy CT, and some feel no need to even do it. I like to raid to fight different bosses, so even if it is easy, I might have fun doing it, but not everyone feels this way.

Yes, for the e-penis's of the "Elites" who want world first/server first/galaxy first...

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Originally Posted by fraeblood

I like to raid to fight different bosses

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This. For example i personally like Hydra alot as an tank even if hes piss easy, and then i find Titan HM being extremely boring even tho he is supposed to be harder. So it falls down what mechanics and abilities bosses have, more complex and more moving is always better than hard hitting tank&spank's imo.

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Originally Posted by fraeblood

So turn 6 doesn't have to be harder then turn 5 to fit into the flow of boss fights that most raiders are use to dealing with. The main issue I think you are referring to is that people in all 90 gear will most likely destroy CT, and some feel no need to even do it. I like to raid to fight different bosses, so even if it is easy, I might have fun doing it, but not everyone feels this way.

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Yes, I have raided in other games before. However, FF14 follows the 'attunement' pattern that dictates that the next boss tier will be harder (You have to kill HM before extreme, Ifirit before garuda or titan. SE will require people to finish T1-5 before they can tackle T6-10. The only way to challenge people who has finished T5 is to make T6 and above as unforgiving as T5.

This is what people have stated what they want - harder challenges, better loot.

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Originally Posted by wlakiz

Yes, I have raided in other games before. However, FF14 follows the 'attunement' pattern that dictates that the next boss tier will be harder (You have to kill HM before extreme, Ifirit before garuda or titan. SE will require people to finish T1-5 before they can tackle T6-10. The only way to challenge people who has finished T5 is to make T6 and above as unforgiving as T5.

This is what people have stated what they want - harder challenges, better loot.

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As mentioned above, the first boss of the next tier of content doesn't necessarily have to be harder than the end boss of the last tier; it just needs to be tuned to be wearing a majority of gear that drops from the previous tier of content.

An example would be comparing Yogg-Saron from Ulduar to the three part Coliseum fight in WoW which were a patch apart. Most people would say that the execution required to beat Yogg-Saron was much more complex than that of tanking three bosses with minimal skill sets in succession. However, at the same time it was expected that you'd be wearing a certain amount of gear from Ulduar to tackle the Coliseum. If you went directly from Naxxramas gear trying to take on the Coliseum you were going to be in for a world of hurt.

I have to go with a very yes no answer here.
Yes it serves a purpose, to all of the people who fall into the: Hardcore Raiding, Legacy bored, and World/Server First groups. Yes because they have had the time to farm the gear that makes lower leveled dungeons trivial and boring. They have had the time to master the instances and are ready for something they can't clear first try every time. Yes because while full collections are cool, being bored and not seeing any real progression sees people leave the game.

No because that(those) group(s) is(are) not the majority of the player base. It may be the majority of the people that post on the forums but we all know that's a very small percentage of who actually plays the game. For the majority adding progressively harder content is fine, so long as it is not to the exclusion of more "challenge appropriate" content. CT is that gap filler (that should have been present already ...) and maybe SE will put 2 and 2 together and realize they dropped the ball with the difficulty tuning on the primals as well. Titan for iLevel 70 but is the hardest primal, Moogle drops ilevel 80 but is easier, Garuda also drops iLevel70 but is easier than moogle ... that's good balancing, but I digress.

In the end, both things should be happening, content for the majority is probably the more financially appropriate choice though, as catering to the majority means keeping more players playing.

Edit: and one day we'll get to post 1000 words instead of 1000 characters ...

It only took them 2.5 months to beat Twin because the twisters were too unforgiving with the server lag. Put the twintania we have now and people likely would have beaten it within a month.

If i'm not mistaken one of the main reasons it took so long to down twintania was gear restrictions? Having to repeat t1-4 while saving up only 300 myths at a time is a pain staking long process. Esp for the groups who only see the same gear for 3 weeks in a row. With the introduction of turn 6-10 it will be much easier because, thanks to CT more people should have progressed through a least turn 4 but should finish T5. As we wont be missing the bridge gear i80 anymore. Since you will need mostly i90/i80 gear to down tear 5. We already have the i90 gear from myths/coil, so no one should really be under geared when entering T6 -T10, unlike T1-5

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Originally Posted by Orophin

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Isn't that what killed Wolk, coliseum was a complete joke compared to what Ulduar had to offer. In BWL, the first boss's execution was harder than rag. Guilds were having more problems with the starting bosses in sunwell than illidan. But the point people seem to have are that the first few turn bosses are suppose to be loot pinatas to get people feel like they are progressing and that fights should lean towards challenging player's gear over player's pixel perfect skills and reaction.

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Originally Posted by Urielparadox

If i'm not mistaken one of the main reasons it took so long to down twintania was gear restrictions? Having to repeat t1-4 while saving up only 300 myths at a time is a pain staking long process. Esp for the groups who only see the same gear for 3 weeks in a row. With the introduction of turn 6-10 it will be much easier because, thanks to CT more people should have progressed through a least turn 4 but should finish T5. As we wont be missing the bridge gear i80 anymore. Since you will need mostly i90/i80 gear to down tear 5. We already have the i90 gear from myths/coil, so no one should really be under geared when entering T6 -T10, unlike T1-5

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No, what stopped people from killing twintania was the twister mechanics that only a select few had figured out.

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Originally Posted by wlakiz

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No, what stopped people from killing twintania was the twister mechanics that only a select few had figured out.

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If it was one mechanic whos to say that the next bosses might be "stronger" but easier to understand making the fight "easier". and how is hammering your head on a boss less productive then getting useless gear... oh wait its not useless its for vanity.

likely if we are to get 6-10 next, 6 and 7 will be slightly easier then T5, but drop better gear. 9 and 10 will be harder then T5, but require you to have full ilv90 and/or above from some drops from 6-8. the last turn of each set is the final boss of this "wing" or set of turns and will always be harder then the others, does not mean next step or two cant be a slight drop back in terms of overall difficulty.

As many have also said, groups who are now just starting to work on T5 are getting her down in a couple of weeks because they fixed the issue with twisters (too unforgiving with old lag issues) and people are better geared due to the myth and coil drops over a few months time. When we step into Turn6 in full ilv90 (95weps potentially) being as hard as T5 wont be all that hard as T5 could be done in 80-85 avg ilv now.

game is almost done , I do not think they can deliver the content fast enough to keep people happy .

If you don't believe me then just look at the lock out systems they have to place in game to slow people down artificially .

Remove those locks and caps and you would see people with at least 3 jobs at 50 in full 90 armor .

Just to clarify, Twintania is not hard.
The problem was that they didn't understand how her abilities worked (or did anyone else), because SE is using a terrible design approach that relies on obscurity to prevent content from being cleared quickly.

We didn't wipe to her for weeks because we were playing poorly, we wiped to her for weeks because we had absolutely no idea what her abilities (primarily Twister) did.

Was mainly gear and the gear jump. If Turn 6-10 were i100 then we'd be doing the next tier of content and it wouldn't be the same as going i70->i90.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

Just to clarify, Twintania is not hard.

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Sure, once you've beaten it once, you can down it easily. Maybe 2 or 3 attempts for your next couple and then pretty much 1/1 from then on.

But you make it sound as if players can clear Turn 4 for the first time and then just beat Turn 5 in one sitting. You can watch all the videos and read all the guides you want, but when you start out on Twintania you're going to wipe a hell of a lot while you get used to her mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

game is almost done , I do not think they can deliver the content fast enough to keep people happy .

If you don't believe me then just look at the lock out systems they have to place in game to slow people down artificially .

Remove those locks and caps and you would see people with at least 3 jobs at 50 in full 90 armor .

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Is this your 1st MMO? no MMO in history has ever put out enough content to keep up with the top few percent of players, but it put out enough for the majority of them. Same is what is happening in ARR, and the same locks that are here are present in any good MMO I have ever played (and any spot where there was no lock had 1% drop rates of items you want, and posibly limited attempts a week on top of that)

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Originally Posted by Alkimi

Sure, once you've beaten it once, you can down it easily. Maybe 2 or 3 attempts for your next couple and then pretty much 1/1 from then on.

But you make it sound as if players can clear Turn 4 for the first time and then just beat Turn 5 in one sitting. You can watch all the videos and read all the guides you want, but when you start out on Twintania you're going to wipe a hell of a lot while you get used to her mechanics.

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We killed Twintania in our first night of attempts after Twister was fixed. The mechanics are all pretty easy, unless someone is lagging.
Before that, a lot of time was wasted dealing with bugged mechanics. Overall, they aren't hard. We have used a few players who hadn't done Twintania before and they did the entire encounter correctly on their first attempt.

Easy mechanics but you're counting on your entire group to not mess up.

Our last week of attempts (we haven't killed it yet) - we sometimes reach twisters after killing the big snake, most attempts the big snake is still up.
And those few attempts we get into twister phase - either a healer or the main tank dies because a healer was stunned by dreadknight, etc

Its a mess and I'm pretty tired of the fight, its not well tuned. Its just plain annoying the first half is way too boring, redoing it each time is killing the fun out of this game.
I do everything correctly on my end except after 3 hours when I lose focus and miss a divebomb or a conflag/fireball because its been THREE HOURS of attempts.

We really don't know how Yoshi is going to implement turn 6+. We can only predict and be frustrated with our thoughts of how its going to be. To be honest, I'm perfectly fine with turn 6 being harder than turn 5 (which I doubt), but no more buggy mechanics and have it finely tuned.

Also need to make sure at least one of the Turns is a complete and utter waste of time.

Hardest thing here is actually finding a patient group.

I literally just spent around 14 hours finding/organizing groups(T5) for nothing with most of them just leaving after a few tries.
Same thing a few months ago with Titan to T4.