Disclaimer: This thread is not about Hard vs Easy content. It's not about any type of player being better than another. This thread is strictly about content that is available to everyone and keeps them coming back for more. Please stay on this topic.
I'd like to take a moment to discuss the topic of time sinks. In this post I will make a number of references to FFXI and also attempt to explain, in my own words, why FFXI was designed the way it was and what it means for FFXIV's future.
Why FFXI? Three reasons: It was the predecessor to FFXIV. It is commonly referred to as being one giant time sink. And FFXIV took one of FFXI best concepts and attempted to improve on it.
When Square-Enix released FFXI they revolutionized a certain aspect of MMOs in general. To this this date, the only other MMO on the market that has adopted this change is FFXIV. It is one of the main reasons I prefer FF's 2 MMOs over any other. So what was this brilliant idea of theirs you say? The ability to level every class on one character. So what does this mean for us, the players?
Well, the most obvious result of this change would be the notion that if you wanted to play a new class, you didn't have to make a whole new character. This allowed for players to become more attached to their avatar. It represented who they were in this virtual world of theirs. It made making a reputation for yourself something many people took seriously, and rightfully so.
With it also came the birth of the subjob and armory systems. Two incredible concepts that, while other MMOs have also attempted in their own ways, are still in my opinion the best examples of class flexibility while still staying within the boundaries of roles (FFXIV still needs a ton of work on the latter.) After all, this is a Role Playing Game.
OK so great concept, but what does this have to do with time sinks? The answer, is everything.
Aside from the fact that many of the best items in FFXI lasted for levels upon levels, they also remained the best option for a number of classes together. For example, when you finally got Homam Hands, your PLD DRK and THF all obtained their best TP hands at the same time. Well worth the time and effort you put into getting them. The sense of satisfaction that came with it always seemed like a huge achievement. When you camped Valkurm Emperor for a week straight, hours on end with no drops. Then one day you log on and he is hovering right in front of you, unclaimed, you grin to yourself and begin to kill him for upwards of the 30th time and it happens, "You find a Empress Hairpin on the Valkrum Emperor." Within seconds you're screaming in your LS "OMFG I GOT IT!!!!! WOOOOO!!11!!!1!!" Your THF and NIN were good to go all the way to 70 now. Again, well worth the time and effort you put into it.
The same can be said for nearly everything in the game. There was a reason the best stuff took so much time to obtain. Nothing could compare to the satisfaction you felt when you finally got your hands on it. Byakko's Haidate, Optical hat, Kraken Club, E. Body, Relic weapons, the list goes on and on. There was always new goals for you to complete, and you knew that if you kept at it you would be handsomely rewarded. You wore that gear proudly as you walked through town. It represented the dedication you put into obtaining it. And in turn it further added to your reputation, if that was something you cared about.
Sadly, this is not the case in FFXIV. When you obtain anything in this game the satisfaction is barely there. I don't think I've ever seen anyone extremely excited when they finally got what they were after. The only thing that comes close is making a +3 weapon or tool, and even that is kinda meh. Nothing takes more than a day to obtain if you really put effort into it. When you do finally get it, it's nothing special. Everyone and their mother already has it anyways. There are no real goals. Everything just seems like your essentially watching a movie and you know exactly what to expect.
For any game other than FFXI and FFXIV I can understand why the instant gratification works. For every new character you make, you have to do the same things over and over again. It only makes sense that items should be easier and quicker to obtain. That's a perfect concept, for those games. But this is not the case for FFXIV.
If you're not the type of player that plays to be the best you can or you don't care about getting the best gear then something like this shouldn't bother you. I'm not saying make everything take time and effort to obtain. There should be plenty of decent and easily accessable options for everyone. But for the best stuff in the game, make us work for it. Give us goals, long term goals. Give us a reason to continue playing, something that is rewarding in both an emotional and material sense. We want to feel like we actually accomplished something sometimes.
Square Enix, your multi-class per character concept was probably the best idea out of both of your FF MMOs. Time sinks like those stated above only work to compliment it. You CAN make this game cater to everyone if you choose to, it's all about finding the balance. If you want to keep any of your hardcore playerbase much longer this is the way to do it.
With 1.18 just around the corner, I'm really hoping that this is something Yoshi-P and the dev. team took into consideration. This coming patch will be the make/break for a lot of players. I'm sure if it's just more of the same, you will lose a very large portion of your hardcore fans, myself included. I mean, the whole reason you copied FFXI's races was to let FFXI vets to feel comfortable transferring, wasn't it? Well, I can assure you they don't want a hand holding, easy-mode, free loot give-a-way MMO. You're doing a great job in a casual sense, just don't alienate the rest of us, please.
To the players: Please like this thread if you agree with me. Share your opinions on the matter. What are your ideas for making this game enjoyable for all players? Soon the battle system overhaul will be complete and SE will begin to pump out content. What do YOU want to see?
Edit: Added disclaimer
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06-02-2011, 09:56 AMMeowyWowie[DEV] Time sinks and satisfaction, a plea from one of your hardcore fans
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06-02-2011, 10:08 AMPeregrine
They could have gotten a long way with adding lu-shang style quests for simple earrings or something for each job. I would have loved to have something to do with 10,000 metal ore for miner, or 10,000 crystal shards for Conjurer. They can't make the entire game like that, but it would have been very easy and the would have gotten some content points.
But all this content is coming. There's no one that really wants the game to stay this generic and simple. -
06-02-2011, 10:13 AMZephyrAM
Really, there's one main argument with this post that jumps to mind: level cap increases.
One of the biggest things that players complain about with new expansions is regarding increases to the level cap, and that the gear they spent ages working to get is now no longer useful. Pack it away, vendor it, 'maybe' sell it, if you're very lucky and that's even possible. And the more excited and accomplished you felt to finally receive that awesome item, the more put out you'll feel when you essentially get told it's now useless, go do it again.
As of now, from all we've heard, SE fully intends to raise the level cap. That there's no difficult content or epic gear at the moment is neither a bad thing, nor, likely, entirely unintentional. XIV isn't currently designed for endgame, because endgame doesn't exist yet.
'Everything' that exists in Eorzea right now is leveling fodder.
Now, feel free to push some ideas regarding more difficult/epic aspects of the game, just in case the Devs haven't solidified plans down the road and are still looking to see how players feel about such things. Feedback is always good. Just make it about the future, not about the now, because we don't really want it now when for all we know they could jump the level cap to 70 by Fall. -
06-02-2011, 10:19 AMAnty
you speak my mind. The easy-to -optain-everything is also something that kills other mmos as well, especially new ones since people run out of content too fast, not the fastest developer can maintain the speed of even casual gamers finishing this easy-hand-holding-content. I doubt well see something like this but i hope they will give us more harder stuff to do!!!
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06-02-2011, 10:22 AMAntyMight be true that this is the reason for the current content but looking at all mobs and the all-over easy mode i doubt it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrAM
Would make sense but mobs at lvl 50 are same easy as lvl 20 mobs, there is no difficulty increase.. well.. the mobs usually are even the same... which makes it even worse... -
06-02-2011, 10:28 AMMeowyWowieWhile I do agree with your comment it still doesn't make my request premature by any means. I'm not asking for endgame. I know the cap will be raised, I'm fairly sure everyone knows this already. But, they can still release good items that last a very long time, even if they released them now. They did it in XI, so why couldn't they do it here? The 2 most common examples from XI would be Leaping/Bounding boots and Emperor/Empress hairpin. Both took time to obtain, and they lasted you a very, very long time.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrAM
Also, with XI, SE was very good at releasing new content and items without completely overshadowing what already existed. Many of the items in game lasted for YEARS, and they pumped content out rather quickly. There's no reason they couldn't do it here.
Edit: Spelling -
06-02-2011, 11:11 AMDuelleNo. That's called "Alpha and Omega itemization". That was a sign of very bad game design that incurred a timesink through gearing and was made worse by community expectations. Did you forget that you were considered a gimp THF and a gimp NIN for not having those items?Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
The means through which to obtain the items were also horrible, as both were non-guaranteed drops from mobs that were heavily camped by everyone, their mother and their army of /anon RNGs. That was not fun. It was not worthwhile. It was a waste of time that reduced the value of almost everything else for those slots that came your way. -
06-02-2011, 11:23 AMXatsh
It was definatly worth the time, an item that was good for 30levels and then was crafted into a peice good for another 20-25levels...
So yea it would take along time to get but it was good for 3/4ths the wya to endgame. You did not need them, but if you took the time to get them you where rewarded.... that is great game design and how it should be. -
06-02-2011, 11:28 AMAntyin most mmos you are considered "gimp" if you don't wear "purple" gear of some sort or don't meet special requirements. That is nothing new and happens in almost every game. Or something like " we doin hardmode XXX dungeon, ABCDXXXXX required, don't bother applying if you dont have YYYY gear...Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Its commong game design, FFXI did a good thing adding those valuable items at many stages where other mmos only focus on endgame leading to an empty world and people not caring about anything but rushing to cap then raiding their asses off.
You had something to do in ffxi in every lvl, and you had many choices. Most mmos don't offer these choices. -
06-02-2011, 11:31 AMMalakhim
There's a reason timesinks have a negative meaning attached.
Sitting around waiting for the Valkurm Emperor wasn't work. It was waiting around like a dingbat, when you could have been doing something else. Once he actually spawns and you get the pull, he isn't even that hard to kill. Why people think that non-boss NMs in FFXI are hard is beyond me...
A better way of introducing meaningful content would be to create quest lines where you have to solve some difficult puzzle(maybe as a party or a community), or defeat several challenging enemies within a set time limit as well as other limits like no magic or something, or maybe just a boss rush dungeon to finally reach a chest or have a chance to lot for some rare gear. The reward should be in a challenging fight coupled with a cool piece 'o loot, and maybe some storyline or something. -
06-02-2011, 11:32 AMJynx
Thankfully the materia system looks like it could be a nice time-sink to get your optimal stats on an item or the perfect type of materia. Experimenting on what Materia results from weapons/armour and getting the HQ materia from them will also be a good gold/time sink.
SE seems to actually be on the ball with some of these changes. I'm giving them the benifit of the doubt and it seems like a good way to waste some time. -
06-02-2011, 11:35 AMAntytrue, hard AND fun content that isnt easy to accomplish and needs more then just 1 or 2 attempts is what is much better and can also be a timesink. But a sink you are having fun with. Ofc its harder to implement or well lets say needs more creativity but thats the challenge mmo devs need to succeed imho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhim
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06-02-2011, 11:37 AMMeowyWowie
I'm sorry you feel that way Duelle. But in my mind, XI nailed it when it game to gear. I had plenty of fun camping NMs as did many others. If NM's aren't your cup of tea, that's fine. Many people love the competition though. But again, this isn't only about NMs, XI's endgame was the same thing. The best stuff took time and effort to obtain, and they lasted you forever.
If everything was instantly rendered obsolete with each new patch, then the time sinks would have killed the game a very long time ago. XI was a hardcore game, in the sense that you had to really work for the best stuff. XIV is the complete opposite of that. For nearly everyone I know in the game, this is the main thing that will end up pushing them away. I think SE would do well do cater to BOTH crowds. -
06-02-2011, 11:39 AMMeowyWowieWho said anything about them being hard?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakhim
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06-02-2011, 11:43 AMMack
I completely agree. I hate how the "casuals" will come on here and no doubt bash this idea over its head but in reality I was more or less a casual player for 3 years of FFXI and not once did I care that I never owned an Emperor's Hairpin or Leaping Boots (or whatever they were called) or Krakan's Club but let me tell you I sure as hell cared when I stumbled across JEJ one day and got the Amulet, its because it meant something in the game world and was totally worth it...I must have fought that Rabbit 50 times but I got it at long last and it was at a time I wasn't even anticipating the NM. I think FFXI succeeded in that regard and FFXIV has failed big time so far.
The other day I went NM hunting with my LS and we basically went through all the NMs and got everyone in the group (8 people) whatever drop they wanted...there was no satisfaction felt, no sense of accomplishment, nothing. We got the item and we were on our way to the next NM, which spawned every 2 minutes and wasn't camped by anyone else. I hate time sinks as much as the next person, but only if those time sinks aren't rewarding...FFXIV's time sinks are in all the wrong places - leves, quests, and storyline and majority of the sinks have you running around all over the world map for something so petty at the end. In FFXI the time sinks weren't optional a lot of the time but if FFXIV can fix that while maintaining some time sinks that actually reward you, who cares if you're casual and you don't like it? there's plenty of other content there that caters to you. I hope they listen to this thread TC.
P.S. and for the record I don't mean time sinks in the form of NMs only I mean there were storyline quests or armor quests or job quests in FFXI that took a little more effort than traversing a map where nothing agros. -
06-02-2011, 11:48 AMShinChuckWhat? No, you can do this in various games, going as far back as text-based MUDs in the early 90s. Don't get me wrong, I love that you can do this, and more games should allow it, but it's hardly a new and original SE idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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06-02-2011, 11:49 AMMackI personally can't think of any other MMOs that use the concept. Name a few at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChuck
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06-02-2011, 11:50 AMMalakhimMaybe my wording was off. I probably should've said worthwhile. I personally can't fathom why anyone would consider spending hours of real time hunting a weak mob that may or may not give an item that you can replace eventually worthwhile, and then use it as an example about the good things in FFXI.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
Like I always say, like what you like, but wasted time is still wasted time, especially when you could have gotten the item in BCNM. -
06-02-2011, 11:52 AMMeowyWowieExamples please, I know of no other MMOs that do this. But I'm fine with being proved wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChuck
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06-02-2011, 12:33 PMMackThey scurry off when they have no response.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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06-02-2011, 12:36 PMMeowyWowie
Lol, I was thinking the same thing.
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06-02-2011, 12:46 PMShinChuckIt's fairly common in offline RPGs, going back at least as far as Dragon Quest III in the 80s. Off the top of my head, the first MMO I can think of that I recall having it in was Dragonrealms, which has been out since the mid-90s (and it's precursor Gemstone may have allowed it as well, although I don't recall for certain). For more recent examples, Phantasy Star Universe (and it's spinoffs Phantasy Star Portable 1 & 2), Eden Eternal and Dream of Mirrors Online allow you to change to any given class.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
Various other games do it on a smaller scale. Rift allows you to switch at will between jobs within a given set (four main jobs, cleric, warrior, mage and rogue, which each have nine different jobs you can switch through - so out of 36 total jobs, you can do nine).
Subjobs have existed in pen and paper RPGs for years, and current games like Guild Wars and Lineage have comparative systems.
Don't get me wrong, I agree entirely, being able to change jobs is an awesome concept (sub jobs too, done right!), and I love it. It pains me to see games like WoW being sooooo limited in that regard, having come from the school of Dragonrealms. So while it's not a Square original, it's not an entirely standard mechanic either, so I genuinely applaud them for going that route! -
06-02-2011, 12:50 PMtrinta
/em waits for those two to scurry off. lulz
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06-02-2011, 01:03 PMMeowyWowieThank you, Shin. And no Trinta, I'm not going to scurry away. I already said I'd welcome being proven wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by ShinChuck
Though I still think that out of today's current MMOs, FFXI and FFXIV did it the best, and you seem to agree as well. Rift's system is sort of half way there, jobs within classes, but you still have to create new characters if you want to experience everything. But they're also running into the same problem, people completing everything within 2 months and quitting from boredom. Funny, Rift was advertised as having content ready too lol.
Anyways, thank you again for the contribution Shin. -
06-02-2011, 01:07 PMCorrderio
As long as they don't make anything like Kings/Wyrms/SW/DI/etc. I don't care what they do. As long as they don't pull a salvage.
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06-02-2011, 01:12 PMShinChuckThank you. And I apologize about my original post, it came off confrontational. Sorry about that, I let the passion of the forums get to my head, and I could've made my point without doing it in the way I did. : )Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
The only one I can think that personally compares with XI's is PSU's. You could change jobs at will there, and it was sort of a mix between XI and XIV. You had a Physical Level that that went up to 180 last I checked, and you had Job Levels that were separate and went up to 20. So you could swap to a different job, and while you'd have to level the job itself, your physical level's stats carried over so you didn't need to start from scratch. It was a fairly cool aspect in an otherwise unremarkable game.
But then again, PSU didn't have subjobs, every job was basically static, so being able to switch jobs *and* mix and match, I'd still have to give XI the edge when all is said and done! -
06-02-2011, 01:15 PMMeowyWowie
Personally I loved doing those NMs Corrderio. I'm curious if it was the long re-spawn times or the long windows that bothered most people who didn't enjoy it. If they completely did away with the mini windows and still had long re-spawn times how would you feel then?
Obviously the competition would still be high, but at least you wouldn't waste 3-24 hours just sitting waiting for pop. I'd be totally fine with that. -
06-02-2011, 01:18 PMBledI personally loved the NM spawn times for the soul fact of supply and demand. NM loot was in high demand but there was a pretty small supply which made these epic drops just that EPIC and of course rewarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
However on the flip side RMT's make it impossible for this design as far as i know, strictly speaking from my experiences with FFXI. -
06-02-2011, 01:19 PMCorrderioPeople would still bot the hell out of them then take their sweet assed time killing them to keep them in their time zone as long as possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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06-02-2011, 01:24 PMMeowyWowie
Agreed, Bled. The long re-spawn times alone are what made the rare stuff rare and that much more desirable for the person who wanted the best of everything. This is what I mean by giving us long term goals. Imagine if Tiamat spawned as quickly as XIV NMs, the shoes would be worthless lol.
Also I wouldn't worry about RMT. If they make the fights difficult they won't stand a chance. Many of them are multi-boxed characters, and generally lack the skill needed to defeat them. At least that's how it was on my server. -
06-02-2011, 01:30 PMMeowyWowieBots shouldn't be a reason for not giving us certain forms of content. They will exist regardless, and they're NOT unbeatable by any means (they do the same exact thing you do when you attempt to claim.) And rage timers, especially XIV's 9999dmg rage (lol), will ensure no one can hold them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrderio
Those aside, how do you feel about long re-spawns but instant pops (maybe a 5 min window) when they're due to pop? -
06-02-2011, 01:41 PMBledSounds good, but only if there was an actual need for epic equipment in the game...Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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06-02-2011, 01:43 PMMackI like this idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
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06-02-2011, 01:47 PMZephyrAM
Alright, all fair enough.
And I do fully agree with being able to upgrade gear through crafting. I've seen it's use numerous times even just in the low levels of XIV, and hopefully that trend will continue :).
However, if you want the level of NM's found in XI, with spawn times and multi-hour fights...
For the love of gods, instance them.
Fighting over spawn points is not competition, it's asinine, and a fool bit of game design. By all means, make people work to both get to the boss and manage to defeat them, but don't make them fight the very community for it, that's nearly as bad as PvP.
There are so many options, so many paths, by which to handle things like this, there's no reason to create tension amongst the players over it. -
06-02-2011, 01:49 PMBledOne of the main reasons FF XI had open world activity was because they did not instance everything, the minute they insentience every little task, you kill the community IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZephyrAM
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06-02-2011, 02:01 PMCorrderioYes, but the issue is due to the rarity of the mob and the competition, no matter what there will be bots there.Quote:
Originally Posted by MeowyWowie
And no offense, but in no way will I ever support something like a 21+ hour spawn. -
06-02-2011, 02:03 PMMackWhy not? you know you don't need to get every single item in the game. As I said, I played XI for 3 years and not once did I feel left out cuz I didn't have certain NM drops, but because of the rarity of the drops it was awesome when you did get something. Now 21 hour spawn might be too much but 3-6 hours will low drop rate I think is good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrderio
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06-02-2011, 02:08 PMCorrderioBecause adding content that caters to a select few makes zero sense?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mack
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06-02-2011, 02:12 PMMackThis can be said for both sides. I don't like the NMs that pop every 3 minutes and give you a 75% drop rate. See how that works? I'm sure there's plenty of people in the same shoes. You say "select few" as if FFXI never existed...a large part of what will make FFXIV a success are FFXI fans making the switch or ones that haven't played in a long time and want a new FF online game...if they're the "select few" then SE should take the leap. And once again, you don't need to be greedy and want everything...if you don't have time to do certain stuff, especially something as minuscule as killing an NM, then don't do it...do something else...the game should cater to you too. Or you know, you can throw reason out the door and be selfish.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrderio
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06-02-2011, 02:22 PMMeowyWowieIt doesn't cater to anyone in particular. Sure, hardcore players will have more chances at it because they play more. But the same exact thing can be said for the current content we have now. Hardcore gets things much faster simply because they spend more time trying to obtain it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Corrderio
If you're a casual player the content is still there for you. But to make everything casual then it's not fair to the hardcore player-base. In my original post there was only 1 part that I bolded. And that was that I'm not asking to make everything hardcore.
Casual players seem to always complain about being left out when we discuss content like this. But how do you think we feel when all the content we're getting is catered to casuals? Exactly the same way. But the difference is we are willing to compromise and actively throw out ideas in the hope that maybe, just maybe, the casuals will "approve." I'm sick of it. We all payed for the game and there's no reason it should cater to only one crowd. It's in SE's best interest to please as many people as possible.
You guys can have your casual content, you're certainly getting it already. But let us have ours as well. But just remember that no matter how bad we want content like this, we DON'T want to single you out. I wish the same can be said for you.