Monster Names

The highest three gods in the Hindu religion are Brahma (the creator), Vishnu (the sustainer), and Shiva (the destroyer). Garuda is a half-bird, half-human deity and the mount ridden by the god Vishnu.

I wonder how devout Hindus feel about Garuda and Shiva being vicious monsters worshipped by beast tribes and needing to be defeated by mere mortals. Probably about the same as Christians would if one of those monsters had been named Jesus.

If you look at many of the "Primals" they take from many religions and myths.

Like Odin, Bahamut, Gilgamesh, leviathan, just to name a few more.

These names have been used for decades with Square and are iconic in their own way outside religion and beliefs with just the fans of this game franchise.

I wonder how the Wotan feel about their God Odin (the All Father) being as a Rabbit eared black knight.

I wonder how the Mayans/Azetec's felt about their god Quetzalcoatl being misrepresented too.

And hellz ya! I would love it if Jesus was in this game. I would totally camp him so I could say "I killed jesus"

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Originally Posted by Reiterpallasch

Oh man it could totally be a special leve quest and everything, where you need to turn in some lumber and nails.

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(its a fantasy, if you get that worked up about a fantasy game, then you are the one with the problem...)

:)

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Originally Posted by Nero

How the Wotan feel about Odin? The fuck? You know Wotan is just a different Name for Odin? XD Well also used in Old-Germanic instead of Odin, but yeah.. its been a while since people here believed in Walhall. xD

lol.. don't take it too serious. :p

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I thought the Wotan was how the modernday believers/followers identified themselves. I knew it was another name for Odin. But ya, looks like you got the point anyway!

Final Fantasy games are pretty blatant in their anti-religion stance, off the top of my head there's a guy in Camp Drybone that questions the whole Ifrit thing - "worship me or burn in hell for eternity, doesn't sound like much of a choice to me" which is clearly a dig at Christianity. There's probably way more that more observant players will have picked up on than that one snippet that caught my attention.

This vid does a good job of putting together the pieces from previous titles- http://youtu.be/MLhiWw3pzQk

Odin, who is one iconic primal and in other games summonings and the only thing he gets here is one lazy fate :<

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I wonder how the Wotan feel about their God Odin (the All Father) being as a Rabbit eared black knight.
:)

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How the Wotan feel about Odin? The fuck? You know Wotan is just a different Name for Odin? XD Well also used in Old-Germanic instead of Odin, but yeah.. its been a while since people here believed in Walhall. xD

lol.. don't take it too serious. :p @ Topic.. Square is using those Name since forever.. idk why someone would make a big deal out of it. There are many Names in many Games, which are grabbed out of Mythologies around the Globe. SE is notorious for that and i seriously don't mind at all. Fenrir, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Midgar, Quetza, Kujata etc etc etc.. and many many many more.

It's Final "Fantasy". It's fictional. If someone got offended that easily. They shouldn't watch TV, play games, or watch movies. The world has it's parodies, mixtures, and well comedy that could involve offensive materials.

Shiva, in Hindu mythology, is depicted predominantly as a male. Between the loose interpretation of this and other gods (noted above but repeated here: Ramuh, Odin, Gilgamesh, Fenrir, Fafnir, Nidhogg, Kujata, Ifrit, Quetzalcoatl, etc), it's hard to take any offense. If anything, it's rather cool that a predominantly (entirely?) single religion and/or culture design team was willing to borrow from other religions and cultures to give their own mythology a greater sense of depth.

Think about it this way: you know how every FF happens in its own universe but there's still summons, chocobos, moogles and the like?

Well, same thing with their gods. FFXIV's Garuda isn't Earth's Garuda, it's Eorzeas. Same for every other deity.

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

i never even knew this lol

I wonder how Christians feel about the Mexican guy named Jesus working at the McDonalds down the street from my house......

TL;DR: It's just a game.

I actually know Garuda and Shiva. They work at Jamba Juice with me. They really don't mind.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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Oh, shut UP. I'm guessing from the context of your posts that you are not a devout Hindu yourself, so you speaking as though you're offended for them just sounds silly. Stop trying to create problems. The devs have enough on their plate already.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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Considering in all of my years of gaming I have never heard of someone getting offended over the names in Final Fantasy games, even when they are sold in predominantly Hindu areas, I don't think we have a problem.

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I would love it if Jesus was in this game. I would totally camp him so I could say "I killed jesus"

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Oh man it could totally be a special leve quest and everything, where you need to turn in some lumber and nails.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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Modern day Hindu with no issues at all, reporting for duty! Don't think you speak for us as a collective unit, because you don't. Your grievances are yours and yours alone.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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Budda was never a god, neither was Hotei (the "fat buddha"), on that point your argument is invalid. Furthermore, There are tons of games out that draw story and design from Japanese Shintoism and the Japanese seem to be very ok with that.

Final fantasy and SE are not trying to "offend" anyone with their use of human mythology in their story telling. They are doing exactly the opposite. They take the time to incorporate these stories into the story of each game in a way that is true to both the myth and the games story line. examples of this are:

The word Sephiroth (or Sephirot) is drawn from Kabbalah, where it refers to the group of 10 attributes through which God is revealed.

Masamune: The name refers to the legendary Japanese sword-maker, Masamune, who is regarded as one of the finest (often the finest) in history. The Masamune has been a legendary or semi legendary sword in most final fantasy games.

Carbuncle: is an elusive mythical animal with palish blue skin and a bright jewel on its face. The spanish conquistadors wrote about carbuncles in many journals, with some fantastical entries even stating that the carbuncle would turn gold if they wondered too close to their nests and would emit light.. In ffxiv, notice how the gold carbuncle is the defense summon for arcanist.

Diabolos: Taken from christianity, In ff8 it would cast Demi which would never kill an opponent, but always do 1/10 of their hp in damage (or 9999 if over 100k) - Demon posessions noted over the last 700 years have always noted that a weakening of morality, physical strength, mental wellness, and stamina were the first sign of being posessed by a (or the) devil.

The list goes on.

As for your bit of drama about if Hindus should or are offended, those I know who both practice and play Final Fantasy games not only loved them, but were PROUD and HAPPY about the representations of that part of their culture. So there you have it.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

I wonder how devout Hindus feel about Garuda and Shiva being vicious monsters worshipped by beast tribes and needing to be defeated by mere mortals. Probably about the same as Christians would if one of those monsters had been named Jesus.

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Well in FFXIII the last boss is kind of a representation of the christian trinity. I think all religion have one god as a monster in FF, and also sephiroth is something from the jewish religion too.
I always wondered if Shiva was based on the verb shiver, more than the god Shiva.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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If you care so much, why did you name the thread "Monster Names". So are you implying that Garuda and Shiva are monsters? o.o

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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Speaking of cultural insensitivity..................

Anyway, jabs aside, there is a concept called voting with your money. If you are offended by this game, then don't make the choice to actively support it through your subscription. You're being a hypocrite by both decrying and supporting simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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Seeing as how they poke fun at Buddhism themselves, I don't think they care.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-18mPaFhelN...nt-oniisan.jpg

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Originally Posted by Fortyniners

Just because Garuda and Shiva have always been iconic names given to monsters by SE does not excuse the blatant disregard for the sensibilities of modern day Hindus. How would the Japanese like it if some western game developed had an iconic monster named Buddha?

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I've seen a Japanese TV show that actually MOCKS Buddha for being a halfwit..so yeah.

Can't believe I bit on the bait.

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Originally Posted by KillyBamp

Final Fantasy games are pretty blatant in their anti-religion stance, off the top of my head there's a guy in Camp Drybone that questions the whole Ifrit thing - "worship me or burn in hell for eternity, doesn't sound like much of a choice to me" which is clearly a dig at Christianity. There's probably way more that more observant players will have picked up on than that one snippet that caught my attention.

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Nothing about christanity, it is just what ifrit do. Burn people to ashe or mindblow their brains (he use blue flames for this).

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Originally Posted by MageBlack

I thought the Wotan was how the modernday believers/followers identified themselves. I knew it was another name for Odin. But ya, looks like you got the point anyway!

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That would be Asatru. And the answer is that most Asatru I know are fans of science fiction and fantasy, and though they / we may grumble about "bad lore," the truth is we recognize that Germanic Neopagans are a minority of a minority of a minority, and that most people see our Gods as amusing stories; we're happy just to see Odin (and Thor and Loki and so on) not completely forgotten by mainstream culture, even if they are only remembered through a bad lens.

I find it hard to see why anyone would be offended over this. If I had a religion I would be proud and happy over seeing it being recognized and honoured in the media I consume.

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Originally Posted by KillyBamp

Final Fantasy games are pretty blatant in their anti-religion stance, off the top of my head there's a guy in Camp Drybone that questions the whole Ifrit thing - "worship me or burn in hell for eternity, doesn't sound like much of a choice to me" which is clearly a dig at Christianity. There's probably way more that more observant players will have picked up on than that one snippet that caught my attention.

This vid does a good job of putting together the pieces from previous titles- http://youtu.be/MLhiWw3pzQk

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That video is full of cherry picking in order to support it's author's biases. He blindly confuses Religious imagery (which is used to flavor FF games), with story themes in FF games.

Final Fantasy (series) stories usually begin as anti-government/empire, and always boil down to either anti-Nihilism or anti-Determinism/fatalism.

• FFI - Chaos/Garland have world stuck in time loop. (**anti-Determinism/fatalism theme**)
• FFII - Emperor of Palamecia (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) is controlled by Demon who wishes to reduce the world to nothing with the power of hell (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFIII - Cloud of Darkness wants to return the world to a state of nothingness (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFIV - Cecil must free the world from his power-hungry King (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) and then must face Zeromus who hates and wants to consume all of existence(**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFV - Exdeath/Neo-Exdeath seeks to use the void to reduce all creation to nothingness. (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFVI - Terra and the Returners fight the Empire (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) and then Kefka who is crazy and wants to destroy the world (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFVII - Cloud and AVALANCHE launch attacks on Shinra Corp (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) and ultimately face Sephiroth who wants to call down meteor, destroy the world, and consume the lifestream. (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFVIII - Squall and his friends battle their rivals and eventually uncover their own pasts and a Sorceress named Ultimecia who seeks to compress all time, devour all reality, and gain infinite power (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFIX - Zidane and his band defy the power-hungry Queen Brahne (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) discover a maniac who wants to rule the world, and finally stumble upon Necron, a being who wants to destroy life and existence itself. (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFX - Tidus and Yuna work set out on a pilgrimage to stop 'Sin' who perpetually reappears in a spiral of death (**anti-Determinism/fatalism theme**). Along the way they encounter Seymour Guado, who wants to become 'Sin' and exterminate all life on the planet. (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFXI - The heroes face off against the Archduke of Jeuno and his brother who seek to rule the world by opening the 'gate to the gods' (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) and later fight Promethia who seeks to devour all life in Vana'diel. (**anti-Nihilist theme**)
• FFXII - Princess Ashe and a rogue band of outlaws set out to overthrow the Archadian empire (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) who conquered her kingdom of Dalmasca and killed her husband. They later uncover a plot by which the gods use stones of power to manipulate people and control history. (**anti-Determinism/fatalism theme**)
• FFXIII - Lightning, Snow and others are purged by the government of Cocoon 'Sanctum' (*anti-Government/Empire theme*) and must fight back against a fate imposed upon them (**anti-Determinism/fatalism theme**) by Barthandelus who attempts to use them to destroy himself and the entire world of Cocoon .(**anti-Nihilist theme**) in order to summon the 'Maker'

There are plenty of positive portrayals of religion/gods in FF games actually: From the prayers of the heroes in FFIV, to Altana in FFXI, to the generaly positive portrayal of the Churches and Gods of Eorzea, as well as Bhunivelze in FFXIII-3. Even Vanat's (FFXII) motivations could be considered to be altruistic depending on how you look at them.

So to say FF is thematically anti-religion is to be completely ignorant of the facts.

In fact, philosophically, FF's Anti-Nihilism might be considered Anti-Atheism as Atheism is ipso facto Nihilism

FFXI: SEA, need i say more? You are fighting the jailor's of the 7 "Heavenly Virtues"....

Hello, folks! Thank you very much for providing your input on the gameplay content in FINAL FANTASY XIV. As this is one of the purposes of these forums, we appreciate your feedback. However, since this thread discusses real-life religion, I am going to close this thread but leave it viewable so that the development team can see your opinions. Thank you for your understanding, and have a great day.