Seeing as there's a guild right in the Coral Tower waiting to be occupied by someone, let's just get the speculation out of our systems.
I see Musketeer as a primary class with the storyline centering around our services to the Admiral. Not really sure if Hexaguns would be used (likely if Corsair/Pirate turns out to be the job) or regular pistols.
I cannot see this class or job being a semi-support class in the way COR was in XI unless the devs weave in some Gambler elements better than in XI (i.e. streamline the roll options, make them last long enough to get some shooting in, etc.)
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12-01-2013, 10:53 PMHaywardRank Speculation: How would Corsair/Pirate/Musketeer play in XIV
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12-01-2013, 10:57 PMShioban
It was originally in the works for 1.0, but obviously that faltered past and it never even made it past the conceptual stage, only the assets really exist, hence why the guild exists for it just like it did in 1.0.
I don't really see it being a support role, but I hope they find something interesting along the lines of gambling or chance should the job for Musketeer turn out to be Corsair.
Hopefully it doesn't turn out to be a blame 1-2-3 experience, (which I doubt) considering Yoshi-P is adamant to add in things such as Red-Mage, however finding a balance for these traditional jobs and their roles is proving difficult apparently.
You could easily add in a roll system similar to FFXI, I don't see this as 'unfeasable'. where-in you can gamble for a higher stake at the risk of busting for the chance of getting a stonger temporary buff would be make this a really useful and interesting DPS class/.
At least we won't have to buy ammo or dice... -
12-02-2013, 12:13 AMTupsi
In all honestly, they really should check into the XI Corsair, it was a great DD class along with being support. Considering Yoshi's decision to give everyone only a handful of skills, 'Phantom Roll' could grant access to more skills while keeping the other skill slots free for other junk.
But considering Bard...yeah I don't think Yoshi made ARR with support classes in mind. -
12-02-2013, 01:48 AMRaskbuckAdmittedly that's one of the reasons I quit GW2... the lack of a dedicated support role is disappointing in my opinion. What's with this new mentality in games where full support doesn't exist? :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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12-02-2013, 02:16 AMNorna
Gunner/Musketeer branching out to either Blue Mage (like Gun Mage from FFX-2 dual-wielding guns) or Red Mage (Gunblades!)? No matter how the implement the class, I cannot see it be anything but DPS with a side-dish of support, maybe.
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12-02-2013, 03:12 AMLinadaeI think modern mmo's are starting to move so fast that support/debuff classes are becoming fairly useless unless its a prolonged fight. Even summoners are having issues. Regular monsters die so quickly that one simply doesn't have time to cast multiple dots and its the same with support. They would be pretending to be full dps until there's a boss or a bad pull, only then could their job shine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskbuck
It's really a shame too. A good support can turn a mediocre group into something good and a good group will reach a whole new level.
It also removes a level of complexity that I kind of miss. -
12-02-2013, 03:25 AMTupsiNot to mention certain buffs/debuffs (beneficial debuffs) only lasts 1-6 seconds..Not sure if you played XI or not but the Pieste family you could keep blind on (even some NMs) and it prevents them from using their glare attacks. Stuff like that I really..really miss in FF MMOs. I know some people will immediately jump on "PS3 limitations", ignoring that this is being made for the PS4 as well..FFXI was capable of all kinds of classes and even huge spells lists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Linadae
Sure you didn't use 100% of your spells every second of the day..you at least had variety even if some weren't as strong as others, a BLM could nuke with Blizzard/Thunder/Fire/Wind/Water/Earth if they so chose and based on monster weakness while Thunder/Blizzard was the strongest in terms of formula until recently. In ARR..you're pretty ah...yeah stuck with Fire. Support roles are really what balances an MMO in the long run honestly. -
12-02-2013, 03:32 AMReslinTo be fair more spells are harder to balance. Also the big problem is sadly most people find classes that are 100% support unfun and they tend to be incredibly hard to balance. Now before you jump on me realize I'm in support of support classes. I loved playing mesmerizer for instance on EQ but this game isn't designed like 11. The problem is balance, how fun you can make it, how much effort it'd take for a support class to be wanted by a group, and how dungeons are designed. If you take out a dps class you end up with longer encounters. How do you make a support worth losing a dps class? Without a healer.. same difference. In FF11 many support classes had trouble getting groups and in raids.. well raids were large enough that there were quite a few slots to put them in but in 14 the biggest raids are only going to be 24 man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
It's a shame but true support has trouble existing in the modern mmorpg world. Another problem is Yoshi wants to focus on making a really good pvp experience (I personally have doubts on how well pvp will work in this in all honesty.) and a 100% support class would be useless in that kind of environment. -
12-02-2013, 03:35 AMfrostmagemariThe reason support roles do not, and should not, exist in MMOs like this is because there's only two outcomes from content developed...Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskbuck
The first being that the devs design the content and classes in mind that you will have support in every group, and design the bosses accordingly; Which unfortunately means that if you do not have that support class with you (for whatever reason), you are at a severe disadvantage for content.
- There is also the side-effect that the DPS classes which are already dime-a-dozen will have even fewer spaces to fill in the group creating an even worse bottle-neck.
The second outcome is that the devs design content and classes without the support in mind; Any encounter that you do bring the support class to will be trivialized because you have all of the default buffs that the classes bring on their own -plus- the buffs offered by the support.
- There is also the possibility that the devs will not make the support class too powerful, so as to prevent trivializing content; In that case the support class will be forgotten by almost any group as it would probably be better to bring another DPS that could support itself with it's own buffs. -
12-02-2013, 03:48 AMMysteltain
I've always had a love/neglect relationship with support classes and spells. On the one hand, I completely write them off in most RPGs because 'why use this when the fight's over in a minute?' Not only that, but their effects are rarely worth using because you can hardly tell the difference. Let's be honest, why would I bother lowering some goblin's defense when he dies in two hits anyway? As much as I love the GBA Golden Sun games, the support classes were largely worthless for that reason; fights were just over too fast to really make use of them.
However, there are also times where I realize just how damn broken status effects can be, or at minimum very useful. A friend of mine finally convinced me to start playing Persona 3, and it didn't take me long to realize just how necessary buffs and debuffs are. I'd have lost quite a few fights if I hadn't raised everyone's evasion with Cadenza, and things would've gone south very quickly if I didn't debuff certain shadows' attack. Another example would be Dragon's Dogma. The Sorcerer class is generally seen as being all about dealing massive damage with flashy spells. But you could be clever and use Miasma to deal a lot of damage over time while also poisoning them, followed by Lassitude to slow them down, Blearing to blind them, and lastly Necromancy to keep them off their feet (or at least stun them). You're pretty much untouchable once these are all on, it's not hard to set up, and you can cast those big, flashy spells without having to worry about being interrupted!
On the actual topic of FFXIV and support classes, I'd love to see more. I think it'd be great to see Musketeers be similar to the Engineers of FFT--shooting different body parts to weaken the target. Or, heck, just make Engineer be a support job from Musketeers, while something like Corsair is its DPS job. I'd be down for playing that class in a heartbeat. -
12-02-2013, 03:56 AMRaskbuckRegarding your first point, isn't that like saying something like "If you don't have a healer, you are at a severe disadvantage for content."? If we treat support as a fully fledged class, that could be applied to any role in a party. Much like a party won't be able to clear content easily without a tank, or without DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostmagemari
About DPS classes already being too many and adding a support role will make things worse, I can't disagree much with that. Unless, of course, you add a fifth slot in the current Light Party setup for Support and either replace a DPS or add a ninth slot in Full Parties.
As for not designing the content with Support in mind, they can always adjust the encounters. I mean, they are not precisely set in stone; much like they modified WP so that you couldn't skip almost all of the dungeon.
As for making the support class too powerful or too trivial, they can always adjust the content to make it feel appropriate. -
12-02-2013, 03:57 AMTupsiSadly I doubt this will happen since people in 1.x complained about having to incap certain body parts in order to enfeeble the mob or gain certain drops (guaranteed) - So in the reformat, Yoshi got rid of body part targeting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mysteltain
Stuff like that is what also turns the tide and as said, what if your Musketeer could focus on say the base of a Chimera's tail and incap it (like 1.x) which prevents scorpion sting? Or Pierce a Cyclop's eye and prevent eye of the beholder? So much possibilities especially with support we likely won't get since as someone said, this game is likely designed more around a balanced PvP nature even though PvP has its own set of skills.
To put it into perspective - While Blue Mage in XI is quite OP in the general sense, they adjusted every major encounter (families) prior to it and after it for balance. For example, Blue Mage is the only job that can plop terror on enemies unless you had the Great Sword from Fiat Lux (last I checked), it works on normal monsters and is quite lengthy, but on NMs/HNMs? It lasts very short if at all even lands. If you take a look at all of Blue Mage debuffs, they do debuffs no other class can do directly, throw in Geomancer and, well let's just say if Yoshi takes a page from XI, adding in support roles is a non issue even in an MMORPG like this, they just have to....do it. The only problem is the fact his whole design philosophy for ARR is "fast, less thinking and rewarding" gameplay, so support roles will generally go against that since as SMN (or even SCH/ARN) how many times have you went into your DoT rotation only for the mob to be dead..mid cast of even the beginning of your rotation? Support roles really would only shine in boss encounters which would require them to make said encounters tough enough to warrant support roles and get off the whole 4 man crap lol. -
12-02-2013, 04:15 AMReslinThe big problem with the add another slot to light/full parties is that they'd need to re-balance existing encounters on top of this it presents the problem of making support worthwhile enough to have over another dps or healer. If they are it becomes the problem of balancing them so they don't replace an existing role by being too strong. Support classes have always been the hardest to balance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raskbuck
And this proves my point. It's very easy to make them too strong or too weak and any overpowered class is bad for the health of an mmo. It's why constant measures are taken to keep things balanced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi
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12-02-2013, 04:31 AMMooshywooshy
Im hoping they pull something out of their butts and one of its Jobs is a Tank class. lol
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12-02-2013, 04:34 AMTupsiBlue Mage isn't a support though - It's a Physical Hybrid which is insanely tough to balance. This is why Geomancer was seen as "weak" because its focus is support but it can also nuke, and a few updates later? They brought it up to speed with current game balance. So while balance is a fine mistress, all MMOs have to go through a period of uncertainty for classes in order to find the right flow. I only used Blue Mage as an example because even given its nature they balanced exactly what it could do to prevent its support spells from basically melting bosses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Reslin
Preventing TP gain or flat out removing it? Yeah when monsters does it to us it removes all of our TP, but when a Blue Mage does it, it only removes a fraction of it (usually in the 30-80 range) which is still good and something only a Dark Knight can do (even stronger at that) but the balance is there. It's just the fact Blue Mage itself isn't in any defined role because it can DD, Tank, Heal or Debuff (Hybrid) but FFXI unlike most MMOs have enough classes and battle balance to be built around it, so while you may one shot The final boss in Moogle Kupo D'tat, good luck even being wanted for Delve content because one is 75 content, the other is level 120 content. I think the main thing with ARR is the game doesn't balance up or down well, a remnant from 1.x where being over certain levels just absolutely destroys anything under you. -
12-02-2013, 04:44 AMReslinAh, I see. I apologize for my misunderstanding. I played FF11 before blue mage was introduced. That being said, in most theme park mmo's. Mobs don't stand a chance against a player 5 levels over them. The idea is a journey to understand your class and it's mechanics to prepare you for max level. The leveling process isn't long by design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tupsi