Hi everyone just thought I'd start this thread as I haven't heard anyone talk about it, but I've come across some times where SMN are really at a disadvantage.
Specifically in Qarn and AV, parties with two summoners are going to struggle.
In Qarn we don't have and instant damage to take down adds in final fight, even if both SMN are well geared it can be an issue taking them down; as our Ruin I isn't all that great even buffed with raging strikes if you have it. Need Ruin I to be stronger or access to Ruin II, know we have Fester but with only 2 stacks of Aetherflow this isn't enough.
AV we suffer a similar problem, our aoe attacks are to weak to destroy fruits and if you single target them you won't get them down in time. Really need access to Shadow Flare or Enkindle for this fight.
I know this is only a problem specifically for groups with two SMN and some players may still be able to get through these dungeons fine, but I know myself and others have trouble with it.
Summoner balance issues!
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11-23-2013, 11:04 AMNakorSummoner balance issues!
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11-28-2013, 04:52 AMAurelious
I will say this, I think personally that SMN is one of the best classes for Sunken Temple of Qarn and is a solid option for Aurum Vale, and here is, in my opinion, why.
1) SMN should not be the one doing the adds on final boss. Adds should be done by one person to prevent wild hate and not landing the boxes on the tiles. This is best left to any other dps. Can SMN do it? Absolutely. But you are better served getting the boss down so you get past the add stage sooner (adds quit after 80% or three/four adds spawn total).
2) Titan can tank this fight incredibly well, believe it or not. When I ran this as a Paladin with a SMN, I was the one on adds and let Titan tank the fight (used Sic, then manually placed him against the far left well and between the occasional Sustain and Cure, Titan has quite a bit of enmity + innate damage reduction. I was always ready to Provoke and tank should it be necessary, but give titan a few seconds to build up and at that level, it's hard to take it from him.
3) SMN are capable of handling the Mythril Verges, but this is better left to other DPS. You just want to be sure you're getting Bio II/Bio on asap since you deal your damage in tics and not immediate, you'll need every bit you can get. If you aren't Titan Tanking it, use Ifrit for higher dps on the verges.
4) During the dungeon itself, whenever you come up against a bee (especially two) then let Titan tank one of them. This way Final Sting kills Titan (easily resummonable) and not the tank (not quite so easily summonable). This is helpful during the first boss, so boss handles one bee, Titan handles the other and makes it much less stressful on all. (Also, load boss on DoTs then Bane them onto the two bees and they'll often die before Final Sting can come up)
5) SMN DoTs (especially Miasma) help taking down the treasure box easily. Remember to call back your pet so he doesn't pull the group before the tank is ready, but popping Bio 2/Bio and then before you think he's going to run, Miasma to slow him down and keep the DoTs ticking will make it easier to kill the box or have it so weak the next encounter it will die to one hit. The best strat for the first time you see it? Have Titan attack the Bee so everyone can focus down the box. Titan takes the bee with him and you get the loot, all to the good!
Aurum Vale you don't have as many tricks, but loading Miser on DoTs, then Bane will put them on a good number (3 of them) so that helps. But you have a secret weapon here I rarely see SMN use, or even know about, and that is Tri-Diasaster. Once whatever fruit spawn into seedlings, Tri-Diasaster them. This will root them in place, so then the other DPS can just focus them one at a time and if they have a stun (MNK, DRG) then you won't ever get hit, and can whittle them down before focusing back on the box. Do NOT AoE them (except for a Baned Bio/Bio2) or it will break the bind and be useless. This alone makes SMN a worthy bringer into AV.
Just my opinion, hopefully this information can help you out because I personally enjoy these dungeons on my SMN. -
11-28-2013, 05:29 AMXenabelleS
Aurelious, the OP's point was when the dps are both summoners.
I found the lack of burst in those situations annoying as well. -
11-28-2013, 09:59 AMEtgar
Class balance is never done based on leveling in MMO's. Summoners are really powerful at 50, making them more powerful in early game will just buff them late game which is not needed.
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11-28-2013, 10:18 AMispano
Since you mentioned "or access to Ruin II" you should already know that Ruin II is the same damage/dps as Ruin.
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11-28-2013, 08:35 PMNakorMy point was that this is an issue when there are 2 SMN present, the lack of instant aoe damage makes things hard in AV and as far Qarn goes if the other dps is not a SMN and well geared then yes they can handle the adds themselves however many people aren't that well geared when they first reach Qarn so both dps are needed for the adds because one alone simply won't have the damage necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aurelious
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11-28-2013, 08:37 PMNakorI'm not saying to make them really powerful, the skills I'm suggesting are only a level or two above the level for the dungeons where this issue occurs. There may be a better solution to this problem, but this is the only one I could think of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Etgar
I am fully aware of this, however Ruin II is an instant cast rather then having a 2.5 sec cast time; my point was that we didn't necessarily need an attack with higher damage but rather that we needed to be able to do damage faster.Quote:
Originally Posted by ispano
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11-28-2013, 09:51 PMShikiseki
TBH the only issue they should look into are our Archer cross-class skills. Only 1 of them is truly useful (Raging Strikes) while dex+ is useless for our dmg and we share hate with our pet already so it's not really worth getting as well.
Maybe one of the crit+ attack to have occasional burst-ish potential with Energy drain/Ruin/Ruinra/Miasma Burst
Also, I usually combine Ruin and Ruinra since Ruinra will immediately launch right with Ruin - you'll be sitting on the GCD though that's when you have time for Rouse/Spur/Miasma Burst/Energy Drain/Bane/Virus/Pet Management or running xD
But other than that, just try to control your pet that it attacks your target with sic/obey.
As for Aurum Vale - I found it was a complete nightmare as Summoner as you don't have a debuff cleansing spell and I've yet to see a healer use an Esuna on my pet *lol* - you're just better off resummoning the pet with swiftcast.
I wouldn't worry about later content though, 2 Summoners on AK and even WP will destroy everything :D - if your tank doesn't pull everything at once that is...
Observing and Strategy shifting is the base of this class, you should always come up with the best strategy according to your party composition and communicate that with your party. Once you do that, your chances of winning are 94,837% x)
Strategy ftw! -
11-29-2013, 02:07 AMPetiteMalFleur
I have trouble on the verges my first time through with two smn dps. I asked for some advice on the dps forums and got some great tips. Use your dots, then Fester and direct your pet to help kill the verges. We also have battle Rez and can help heal and Rez those who go down so we have a lot of utility even in lower level dungeons.
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11-29-2013, 01:52 PMNakorHaha definitely not, at 50 we SMN's are beasts it's just that annoying level 49 cap on AV that makes things hard. And true strategy does help, but sometimes based on your party (in this case two summoners) things are unfairly stacked against you to begin with when they shouldn't be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikiseki
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11-29-2013, 01:55 PMNakorYes I know we can drop our dots and fester but this takes time to set up and fester only hits one target at a time, which doesn't do anything to help in AV as we need to kill multiple adds at once. And I'm not denying that we have a great range of utility, my post was just concerning specific circumstances in just 2 dungeons namely Qarn and AV.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur
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11-30-2013, 12:34 AMChickensEvil
Given that there are 5 DPS classes, and realistically any other comp works (and I am not even completely sold that you couldn't make 2 SMN work) I don't really see this as a huge problem that needs to be fixed. There is only so much you can do to try to keep every class a little different while also making them all "the same". Given that both of these dungeons are hit during the leveling curve, I am not really surprised it is an issue, and also would not want them to address/fix this.
As stated by others, SMN are really strong at 50. For the most part I would say they are really strong in the early levels too, they just lack burst. There is nothing wrong with that. It is part of the flavor of the class. Given that a healer or a tank can solo kill one of the adds that spawns (had it happen before because they were the ones who ended up in the closed box), I would assume the SMN can kill it to... But again, when you hit 50, All the DPS classes are pretty evenly balanced so I wouldn't want them to upset that balance. The issues in the game right now are more on the melee DPS side of things than anything and that is what they need to fix. -
11-30-2013, 03:11 AMPetiteMalFleurYou keep insisting this is impossible and I'm pointing out from experience in this dungeon it is not. Direct ifrit to help kill one verge while you place two dots and Fester a second. I'm unclear why you mention AV since we have an aoe by this level that does damage and binds the mobs for 30 seconds. If you have your dots up on the boss you can also Bane the adds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nakor
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12-01-2013, 09:51 PMispanoThe only problem with using Bane on Miser is it only spreads to 3 targets max. And there's what, 5-6 seeds? So that leaves the others undotted. Also, the AoE you speak of, is weak, and any non dot damage will break the bind, AND the idea is to get the seeds down before they spawn, where the bind might be useful. You then have Miasma II for an aoe DoT, but it's rather weak.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur
I still agree that the Job is fine however. -
12-02-2013, 01:19 AMPetiteMalFleur
[QUO TE=ispano;1616873]The only problem with using Bane on Miser is it only spreads to 3 targets max. And there's what, 5-6 seeds? So that leaves the others undotted. Also, the AoE you speak of, is weak, and any non dot damage will break the bind, AND the idea is to get the seeds down before they spawn, where the bind might be useful. You then have Miasma II for an aoe DoT, but it's rather weak.
I still agree that the Job is fine however.[/QUOTE]
The adds have very little HP. I'll try it out today and let you know. Haven't done it yet on my smn, TBH. Queue for dps is just impossible. -
12-02-2013, 12:23 PMispanoI have, it does make it a bit more annoying if the other DD can't aoe well either. Tri-disaster's potency is only 30 AND has a 3 second cast, so it doesn't do a whole lot on that fight, especially if Miser moves away before they're dead. Makes it harder to hit all of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by PetiteMalFleur