DPSing as a healer - best practices

I know there's a lot of debate about whether healers should DPS or not, but forget all of that!

I commonly find myself with a bit of downtime in between heals in the content I'm running (since I'm mostly just doing WP at the moment). For that reason, I usually make sure the tank is doing okay, hit them with a Regen, then switch out to Cleric Stance and start my normal rotation of DoTs and a Stone II or two if I can fit them in, all the while switching out to heal if I need to. This seems fine to me.

However, in a few runs recently, I've found that the moment I switch into Cleric Stance, the tank takes a huge spike of damage for one reason or another, which leads to me becoming a bit flustered (I'm a nervous MMO player!) and scrambling to switch out of CS to heal the tank up. The rest of the run I'm more reluctant to switch into DPS, since it happens a few times and throws my confidence.

Is this normal? Got any tips for best practices?

As an additional note, I know we should only be DPSing when we feel comfortable and when it's situationally appropriate, but I want to be the best healer I can be!

The huge spike of damage generally means one of a few things:

1) The tank is undergeared. You can mitigate this by examining him when you get into the dungeon. If the tank is really undergeared (or lacking a good weapon), you may wish to be more cautious about your stance dancing (perhaps saving it for bosses).
2) The tank stood in fire. Sometimes tanks stand in fire. I've heard various excuses, but when you have three mobs doing an AoE attack and the tank is just chilling in it, there's going to be some hell to pay. There's nothing you can do to mitigate this, since it's the tank being a derphead.
3) The tank failed to use a mitigation CD when they needed it. Which would have caused the tank to take more damage than they intended to take. Some tanks honestly believe that they don't need to use CDs on trash, and will refuse to do so. They're kind of hell on wheels.

You could try doing a few initial pulls to see how the damage works out on the tank before stance dancing. You could also try asking the tank if he's comfortable with you DPSing (which would hopefully give him a clue that you will be stance dancing, and thus he needs to stop swimming in the fire). Ultimately, the best way is probably to run with a static group if you can get away with it. That way, when your PLD tank stands in all the things, you can yell at him on Mumble for dropping to one health before popping Hallowed Ground. >.>

Not that I know ANYTHING about that or anything. :)

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Some tanks honestly believe that they don't need to use CDs on trash, and will refuse to do so. They're kind of hell on wheels.

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I run into SO many of those, it's not even funny. Makes it that much harder to heal even when NOT stance dancing.

I do the stance dance all the time... If I can get the extra hit in there its gonna happen and thats the ways it is... However you need to play the people your playing with if the tank is not avoiding the damage then you need to stop dpsing and concentrate on healing the tank... You can bring it up to their attention but that usually leads to bitterness and a bad run... I use alot of duty finder because im still low level progressing through the story and most of my FC is end game... Personally as long as the tank is pulling hate then I just do what i can depending on there play style...

Use Stoneskin liberally while in Cleric Stance. Stoneskin always shields for a set amount (18% of max HP) even in cleric stance.

Use <tt> macros to reduce the amount of target switching you need to do. <tt> = target of target. Here's an example:

/micon "Stone II"
/ac "Stone II" <t>
/ac "Stone II" <tt>

The first line enables the Stone II icon for your macro. The second line casts Stone II on your target if it's an enemy. The third line casts Stone II on the target of your current target (you cast on whatever your tank is attacking). This lets you deal damage and heal without ever having to switch targets manually in a party. If you're solo, it functions as usual.

Learn what tank cooldowns do and memorize what the buff icons look like. This lets you know when the tank won't need heavy amounts of healing. This is especially useful in WP speed runs.

Know the abilities of the enemies you're fighting so that you can predict spike damage. For example, the Tonberry King's ability Everyone Grudge deals ~1,000 dmg per stack regardless of abilities like shield oath and rampart. If that boss has 4-5 stacks, get out of Cleric Stance and make sure your tank is topped off and has Stoneskin. If you understand all the possible sources of incoming damage, it's easy to know when you're free to deal damage safely.

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Originally Posted by kro

Use Stoneskin liberally while in Cleric Stance. Stoneskin always shields for a set amount (18% of max HP) even in cleric stance.

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Yep. My healing usually follows this pattern:
1. Top off tank
2/3. Add Stoneskin/Enter Cleric Stance
4. Aero II -> Aero I
5. Stone II; repeat until tank's Stoneskin is gone.
6/7. Reapply Stoneskin/Exit Cleric Stance
goto 1

If we're down to just one target, I'll stay in CS and switch over to playing pure DPS. Can't let 400+ INT go to waste :D

Of course, this is all conditional on the rest of my party. If they're well-geared and I trust them, I'm not super concerned about them taking a ton of damage. If I get a bull-headed tank who won't wait for me to cast Stoneskin before pulling mobs, I tend to just stick to pure heals.

I find this MUCH easier to do as a Scholar. I can literally dps for 90% of AK and WP, even through most bosses. For the most part my fairy does all the healing - the tank will be sitting around 50-70% hp constantly, but he rarely ever spikes lower unless he gets hit by something, and if he does I just pop a Lustrate or two. Pre-shield before pulls with Adlo and Stoneskin and I can dps any trash, and it works almost as well on bosses.

As a WHM I find it a lot harder to do. Regen doesn't cure quite as much as the fairy and when it falls off you have to jump out of CS to reapply. Really the only way I've found that works is pre-shielding with Stoneskin, popping CS and tossing out Aero2/Aero, then back out of CS to top off the tank, apply Stoneskin and Regen directly after, then back to DPSing. It can get pretty hairy sometimes though, especially when you hit CS and the INSTANT you do the tank takes a large spike of damage, and you can't switch out of it for another 3 seconds or so.

I just cast Aero 1 and 2 and heal relaxed.

all a healer can do with dps is speed up the run, during a boss much dps would drain our MP too much. (as a WHM idk about the other classes)

you might want to think about that before putting in more effort then even required.

Honestly it depends on your party and the boss in question. If you use Shroud of Saints as soon as you are missing around 800-1000 MP and continue using it every time it is up your MP lasts quite a lot longer. If you have a BRD in the party then MP shouldn't be an issue at all in any situation and you can just go nuts.

For some bosses, like the boss of Aurum Vale and the flan boss in Wanderer's Palace, WHM tossing out a Cleric Stance Holy or two is a huge advantage despite the MP cost.

That said, if you are in a party where people aren't as geared and fights take longer, you will definitely have to be judicious for bosses. During most trash pulls though you are perfectly fine nuking if your tank is geared appropriately.

I'm all for healers doing dps because it speeds things up. On my scholar I throw out dots to help out but sadly I've run with a few healers on my Paladin who've let me die because they are more interested in doing damage than healing.

Be a Scholar and use Lustrate while in Cleric Stance because it still heals the flat 20% of max HP.

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Originally Posted by kro

Use Stoneskin liberally while in Cleric Stance. Stoneskin always shields for a set amount (18% of max HP) even in cleric stance.

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Thank you, an FC member and I were theorising about that this weekend, I'd thought about doing this while I was DPSing. Thanks for the tip. :) And thanks to everyone else for the tips as well!

I've got two dps modes I run with. I keep them on two entirely different hotbars so I can switch between as needed.

Hotbar 1 is all about the defense. The only offensive skills there are holy (for AE stun more than damage) and a macro I use. The macro toggles on Cleric stance, casts Aero II, then aero I on the <tt> target, then toggles off Cleric stance. The whole thing takes less time than a holy and almost always works (just have to consider the whole thing one spell)

Hotbar 2 is a different story. I have Cleric Stance manually on that bar, but the only heals I have are Stoneskin, Cure II and regen. To use this bar I stoneskin the tank, toss a regen, activate cleric stance and spend as much of the next 20 seconds targeting mobs and blasting them as I can before I downshift out of cleric stance, heal up the tank, and drop another regen and go back in. The trick here is Stoneskin. I keep that on as much as possible. In fact I often use Swiftcast + stoneskin to keep the uptime and let the regens top them back up. Stone II, a macro that combines Aero II and Aero, Holy are all mainstays.

I have found though, that the true secret to dps as a white mage is actually REPOSE, I said this in another thread, but I'll repeat, "Repose healed 100% of the damage you didn't take" It's situational, but it's THE most powerful tool in the box (IMO) when it comes to doing something other than spam healing. It buys you time, time that you can spend Casting offensive spells, defensive spells, or sticking a finger up your nose and waiting for someone to get smacked in the face. Up to you. But if you're expecting to do white mage damage while CC isn't being implemented you're going to have a really bad day.

For reference, usually when I'm doing this, I'm seeing about 200-250 worth of Aero and about 350-400 per cast of Stone II in mostly strategos and an ifrit weapon in AK. it's a little over 50% of the total dps that my similarly geared blm is capable of (that weapon isn't nearly as good though being a WP drop.) Still, I think that's pretty respectable all things considered.

Speaking of Repose, I don't WHM enough to be sure but I think if you Aero/AeroII then repose, the ticks will not wake up the mob. This would probably be the most efficient use of repose.

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Originally Posted by Delvish

Speaking of Repose, I don't WHM enough to be sure but I think if you Aero/AeroII then repose, the ticks will not wake up the mob. This would probably be the most efficient use of repose.

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This is true. Dot ticks don't break the sleep (neither does Flash). Bane spreading dots to your target will similarly not break the Sleep. However, reapplying dots directly will break it. :)

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Originally Posted by LiadansWhisper

This is true. Dot ticks don't break the sleep (neither does Flash). Bane spreading dots to your target will similarly not break the Sleep. However, reapplying dots directly will break it. :)

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Yes, most people should notice that there is an initial hit potency and a tick potency. That's why direct hits cancel sleep, it's effectively no different than casting Ruin on them.

Situations like the one you described are ripe for Holy to shine. The stun slows damage on the tank while you're Cleric'd and buys you time to exit Cleric Stance and safely resume healing.

The big things about Holy are that it:

1) puts you in danger of proximity AoEs, so you need to know how the mob's abilities work
2) isnt cheap
3) has some threat to it

I'll often let tank get initial aggro + pull sorted out, Renew, top them off, then Cleric and Holy twice, Swiftcast, Holy a 3rd time, then hop out, Shroud of Stealth and continue healing.

It's like adding an extra DPS to your party every other pull for trivial content... all while doing your job of keeping everyone alive.

i'd recommend only 2 Holys if SoS isn't up - the aggro and mana costs become problematic past that.

Oh and remember that Benediction isnt affected by Cleric Stance. So long as that is available to use, you should have confidence to add in some DPS on trivial content in case something goes wrong.

If you use Benediction? Just hold back on Cleric Stance for a bit. Also dont forget that you can still do damage outside of Cleric Stance. Every little bit helps, even if it's just an Aero now and then.

I like to dps as a whm, and have to restrain myself to conserve mana on bosses.

-I love repose... especailly in undergeared, or unskilled groups
-I don't like to switch stances; I'd rather be ready to heal at any given time

-stoneskin!!

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Originally Posted by TastiestFrank

Oh and remember that Benediction isnt affected by Cleric Stance. So long as that is available to use, you should have confidence to add in some DPS on trivial content in case something goes wrong.

If you use Benediction? Just hold back on Cleric Stance for a bit. Also dont forget that you can still do damage outside of Cleric Stance. Every little bit helps, even if it's just an Aero now and then.

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Stoneskin is significantly better to use on WHM when in CS. Benediction is a safety valve that you really should never use.

On SCH I suggest using Lustrate when in CS. The CD isn't nearly as bad as Benediction. Use Adlo prior to jumping into CS, drop a DoT rotation, Lustrate, and continue w/e DPS rotation you prefer.

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Stoneskin is significantly better to use on WHM when in CS. Benediction is a safety valve that you really should never use.

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We're talking about speeding up trivial content like WP and AK, right?

I'd argue that Benediction is a tool to be used like any other, and I'm saying that you can afford to play riskier while it's available, and you play tigher when it's not.

If you'd rather play like you should 'never use it', take it off your bar.

A Swiftcast Stoneskin may get you safely out of Cleric Stance back into regular healing, but you never want to get stuck chain-Stoneskinning in Cleric Stance.

It's not efficient healing even on the best geared tanks.

It doesn't sound like you're talking about speed runs, but I'll mention this anyways.

What I do for each pack of mobs:
1. Always Stoneskin the tank at the start of the dungeon, and right start casting it again right as the last mobs of each pull are almost dead.
2. At the start of each pull cast Divine Seal
3. Cure 2 the tank
4. Regen the tank
5. Medica 2 the group
6. (If necessary) Cure 2 tank again.
7. Use Cleric stance
8. Holy spam (at least 4)

With the stun effect of Holy you wont have to throw out any more cures if the group is properly geared. This is helped by the DS regen and medica. An awesome PLD taught me this method and it works amazingly. This, and only this is how sub 10 minute WP runs are possible.

Just be sure to have Shroud ready because as I'm sure you know multiple Holy's (Holies?) pull a lot of hate, and us whms are squishy!

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Originally Posted by TastiestFrank

We're talking about speeding up trivial content like WP and AK, right?

I'd argue that Benediction is a tool to be used like any other, and I'm saying that you can afford to play riskier while it's available, and you play tigher when it's not.

If you'd rather play like you should 'never use it', take it off your bar.

A Swiftcast Stoneskin may get you safely out of Cleric Stance back into regular healing, but you never want to get stuck chain-Stoneskinning in Cleric Stance.

It's not efficient healing even on the best geared tanks.

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Speed runs have zero to do about mana efficiency so long as you have enough to continuously DPS and keep the tank alive. My point is that Benediction is one shot and then you are basically out of it for awhile. Unlike Lustrate, you can't depend on having a quick spike available on every single pull.

You shouldn't need to chain cast SS. Given a 6k HP Tank - stoneskin is 1080 mitigation. That's a good "heal".

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Originally Posted by FinagleABagel

Speed runs have zero to do about mana efficiency so long as you have enough to continuously DPS and keep the tank alive. My point is that Benediction is one shot and then you are basically out of it for awhile.

You shouldn't need to chain cast SS. Given a 6k HP Tank - stoneskin is 1080 mitigation. That's a good "heal".

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If you dont have a Bard, efficiency can impact speed, but generally I agree with you there. The OP's question is about dealing with unexpected spikes and surprises - Benediction is one tool in our kit for offsetting that exact problem.

I agree with you that relying on it for every pull is poor play, but that wasnt what I advocated. I do a few speedruns every day on my WHM and rarely need Benediction - I usually use it so I can Holy a few more times to further speed up a run since I know the pulls like clockwork and don't need it.

Thanks to everyone for the tips! And for reference, I am specifically referencing WP/AK.

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Originally Posted by Odd

It doesn't sound like you're talking about speed runs, but I'll mention this anyways.

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Thanks for your tips! I always Stoneskin at the beginning of each group in an SR, and Divine Seal into Regen, but I had never thought of using Medica II, that'll be useful! I need to get better at Holy spam. My gear has been quite cruddy until recently, so my first and only SR was mostly me spamming heals during trash then DPSing in boss fights, but it went super well anyway. I just need more practice. :)

First, know your tank. Watch a few pulls and see how they handle themselves.

Second, have a plan. I have lustrates up for when I dps for "oh crap" spikes. WHM a regen and a stoneskin should give enough to get a few Stone II in. Keep a swiftcast stoneskin for "oh crap" spikes.

Third, use debuffs before dpsing. Virus, eye for an eye, bind, and sleep; give extra time for you to dps.

Forth, play SCH and have your fairy cover it.

Basically what I do...

1.>Stoneskin
2.>Let Tank drop to 55-65% (Cure 1 if tank takes a hit which brings him down to 30%)
3.>Out of CS Divine Seal Regen
4.>Stoneskin
5.>CS DPS (Quickcast Stoneskin if QC is available and Stoneskin is down)
Repeat from step 2.

As Scholar I stay in Cleric stance for all trash mobs in WP or AK
I place my fairy all the time so she is a bit better at healing and she is usually sufficient
If problem I use lustrate (not affected by cleric stance)
I switch out of CS and cast succor between pulls then back to DPS mode

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Originally Posted by Hysterior

As Scholar I stay in Cleric stance for all trash mobs in WP or AK
I place my fairy all the time so she is a bit better at healing and she is usually sufficient
If problem I use lustrate (not affected by cleric stance)
I switch out of CS and cast succor between pulls then back to DPS mode

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Bah, as SCH you may as well stay CS the entire dungeon! With a decent group (even in DF) I only drop out of CS to be an actual healer during Demon Wall (AK) after the second repel, Tonberry King (WP) just before Everyone's Grudge for pre-shielding, and during faster runs in both dungeons when Embrace simply just will not cut it and Lustrate usage actually impairs my DPS (Bane). Naturally in a not so good group, you have to adjust to accommodate, but typically I will push that limit far further than I probably should (i.e. more than just the tank below 50%).

It's fun to make the party sweat.

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Originally Posted by Odd

It doesn't sound like you're talking about speed runs, but I'll mention this anyways.

What I do for each pack of mobs:
1. Always Stoneskin the tank at the start of the dungeon, and right start casting it again right as the last mobs of each pull are almost dead.
2. At the start of each pull cast Divine Seal
3. Cure 2 the tank
4. Regen the tank
5. Medica 2 the group
6. (If necessary) Cure 2 tank again.
7. Use Cleric stance
8. Holy spam (at least 4)

With the stun effect of Holy you wont have to throw out any more cures if the group is properly geared. This is helped by the DS regen and medica. An awesome PLD taught me this method and it works amazingly. This, and only this is how sub 10 minute WP runs are possible.

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This is the right way to do it. Logged in just to upvote and quote this post. We do WP in 8-9 minutes when we cap Myth weekly or someone needs philo. I'm sure we could push it to sub-8 with a few gear upgrades, though. The only thing I could possibly add to that post is to cast E4E during the right time for pulls whenever it's available for use. (Eg. in WP, as your tank has flashed the first two tonberries in the dungeon and while he's started sprinting towards the buzzards - just have to cast it so that the E4E won't chain-aggro the buzzards to you from the tank, which will happen if you cast an action on the tank too late, ie. just before he is about to engage with the NPCs before generating more threat).

If I find that I have to scramble to get out of Cleric Stance more than once or twice in a run, I still dps but just do it out of Cleric Stance. Its less dps, but if the situation is that volatile, then it's worth the reduction. Weaker dps is still better than no dps.

Ideally being in Cleric Stance as much as possible is best, but if it's hindering my ability to keep the tank healed smoothly for whatever reason (tank is sloppy, I'm being sloppy and/or lazy, etc.) then I just go without it.

I also find it a lot easier to stay in Cleric Stance more often as a Scholar than a White Mage b/c of the pet and Lustrate, but its also because most dungeons I run with my Scholar I am overgeared for whereas WHM is still at level.