Tank needing Bard's opinion

Hi,

When I queue for WP in DF and I am grouped with a bard, I tend to ask the bard use Mage's Ballad in almost every pull. The reason for this is simply because this allows me to pull much bigger, and it also eliminates any downtime. However, I have noticed that some bards simply refuse to use it even when they have full mp pool, and seeing how I do not even have a lvl 1 bard, I can't tell if he/she is not doing their job, or if I am requesting too much from them.

So, my question is this: do you hate it when a tank makes such request? I understand that there is some opportunity cost associated with using Mage's Ballad, but is the alternative more beneficial to the group than using Mage's Ballad?

Honestly, in a 4-man group running an instance normally you should never expect the bard to give you mana. On the other hand if you are doing something such as WP speed runs or generally doing 2-3 group pulls (or more) where massive aoe's are needed, then yes it can be expected as you will need the mp to keep hate.

I do not know all of the tank taunts and skills n such but in general as i understand. Tanks should use flash (aoe taunt?) then tab and individually taunt mobs with emphasis on whichever is marked 1 or to be killed first. This keeps mana usage low but hate yield high.

With well geared and under geared tanks alike, in normal runs i have never been asked for mp nor do i believe i should have to give mp for general pulling. On the other hand when it is absolutely needed I will put it up. But realize that using an mp song lowers a bards dps by 20% thus making most reluctant to use it.

Well some bard see it as this tank wants me to lower my DPS to give the party MP.
I think some brd's play brd since some think it's 'op' DPS, /yawn. And don't see it as a support DPS.

I never seen getting ballad allowing bigger pull's, but more for flash to spam for hate(to not kill the Blm). Can it be done without ballad? Yes. Is it needed? -Depends-. Is it nice to have from a tank perspective? Yes.

A overgeared Pld wont need it really if the Blm is not on par. If the Blm is overgearing the Pld it's kinda needed.
Even more so it helps the healer, assuming Whm to Holy spam between cures and not have MP issue's.

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Originally Posted by Allfy

I do not know all of the tank taunts and skills n such but in general as i understand. Tanks should use flash (aoe taunt?) then tab and individually taunt mobs with emphasis on whichever is marked 1 or to be killed first. This keeps mana usage low but hate yield high.

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This would be true in a normal pull 2~4 mobs - but I am talking for multi-pulls with 5~7 mobs at a time. For WP, this seems to be expected of me.

I have both tank and bard, and honestly if a tank has less than 70% mp for the next pull (on speed runs) that means he is not doing it properly for the most part. There is no need to spam flash all the way till mobs die, you can gain mp and even get mp back as you pull mobs. However, I do use MP ballad when needed and most of the time I don't need to be asked for it, as I tend to watch everyone's MP.

That being said, I rather use Requiem Foe over MP ballad unless the tank doesn't know how to manage his MP, but I also tend to switch Requiem to MP between pulls. If a tank asks me to use MP ballad all the time, to me that means he is lazy and just wants to spam flash the whole instance, tho that's just how I see it. Btw, I'm used to do WP speed runs with my PLD which is undergeared compared to the i90 BLM's I tend to go with, I'm not just talking from a BRD point of view.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

This would be true in a normal pull 2~4 mobs - but I am talking for multi-pulls with 5~7 mobs at a time. For WP, this seems to be expected of me.

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As i stated, in runs such as WP speed runs, where you pull many groups at once; yes it should be used. and as Stalkster stated, most bards play the class to be "OP" but as friends of mine explain... we were only op to begin, as we gain more gear we hardly increase our dps while other classes increase exponentially. I saw hits of 240-260 normal before, now i'm at ~270-280 normal (not including crits obv) while other classes talk of hits up in the thousands... but i digress. For large pulls, 5+ mobs or so, you can ask but dont expect to get it as most bards mentality is that of a dps not support. for large pulls of 8+ they should be using it or they're worthless as a bard.

I use Ballad in between pulls to get everyone's MP up quicker, but during the actual AoE-fest after the pull stops moving I generally leave it up to the tank to regen their own MP with Fast Blade > Riot Blade. If there's a BLM in the party, the AoE phases are better spent in Foe's Requiem. A couple Flares and a couple Holies augmented by Foe's, and the mobs melt.

I usually do Speed Runs in WP 15-18mins each. When we pull big groups with black mage in the party, I have Foe Req. up after fight is done mages ballad, generally.

I normally avoid speed runs for WP if I can. It's not because I don't like casting the Ballad (I prefer using it so I actually feel like a Bard), it's that I feel speed running requires a specific level of trust between all the players involved. You all trust each other to do your jobs properly. And with my connection constantly being shaky and lag, I don't feel I could be trusted to not DC during the run.

For the most part I don't use Ballad for the tank's sake. If I need to use it, it is because the Healer is blowing through their MP like no tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

Hi,

When I queue for WP in DF and I am grouped with a bard, I tend to ask the bard use Mage's Ballad in almost every pull. The reason for this is simply because this allows me to pull much bigger, and it also eliminates any downtime. However, I have noticed that some bards simply refuse to use it even when they have full mp pool, and seeing how I do not even have a lvl 1 bard, I can't tell if he/she is not doing their job, or if I am requesting too much from them.

So, my question is this: do you hate it when a tank makes such request? I understand that there is some opportunity cost associated with using Mage's Ballad, but is the alternative more beneficial to the group than using Mage's Ballad?

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jebus, find better bards. better yet, try to form a server group at revenant's toll

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Originally Posted by Fantasy9

For the most part I don't use Ballad for the tank's sake. If I need to use it, it is because the Healer is blowing through their MP like no tomorrow.

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That's what our BRDs do.

Our PAL uses Riot Blade for mana regen during pulls; BRD is usually singing Foe's for our BLM. If I need mana (depends on the pull and CDs) I'll ask for it, but normally Ballad will only go up between pulls (esp since Foe's does generate aggro).

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

Hi,

When I queue for WP in DF and I am grouped with a bard, I tend to ask the bard use Mage's Ballad in almost every pull.

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If you are running a pre-made, drop the bard/blist them. I run Ballad with my tank because he can spam blinds, whm can spam heals/Holy, and we have little downtime after these pulls. If the bard doesn't understand how to support a group he probably doesn't know how to play bard very well.

Ballad has a -20% damage debuff on the bard. However, there are cases were this means very little to what ballad is trying to accomplish.

Edit:
My group comp is as follows:
Knight
Blackmage
Whitemage
Bard

So far our record has been 9:58 on wp speed runs. I run ballad through almost the whole instance and switch to Foe Requiem on the bosses.

in my experience tanking WP SR's, riot blade provides ample MP regain. Just Flash spam til almost empty then riot til almost full. easy.

Typically I use foe requiem during pulls, then once mobs r down to 30-40% health left pop ballad. Keeps tank fresh and allows for faster kills with the blm. Then when running thru the long pulls use swiftsong so less damage taken from less runtime.

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Originally Posted by Seaside8

So, my question is this: do you hate it when a tank makes such request? I understand that there is some opportunity cost associated with using Mage's Ballad, but is the alternative more beneficial to the group than using Mage's Ballad?

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Is completely right ask a bard for a Balad or ask a whm for a stoneskin.
I always sing MP song from the beginning and run with the tank, when we reach where the mobs should be killed I deactivate the song use CDs and AoE when the mobs are about to die I put the MP song up and the same thing again. It speed up a lot the run

I don't use it in pulls, I use Foe. I use Ballad for WHMs between pulls (when they hit around 3k MP I swap out to Swift.)

If you need Ballad, learn to Tank better, you don't need it.

I've SRed WP with my PLD/WHM/BRD so I know what they do and don't need.

I put up songs as needed (I watch MP levels on my own and usually don't need to be asked) But if someone asked me I would probably do it for them no problem but you really should not have to have it up for every single mob unless you are speed running in which case Foes Req or Army's Paeon would be better for the AoE ers trying to smash the mobs down faster...I usually play with my FC though so we all know how each other plays and what we want to accomplish every time and are on Mumble.

My thought is, if you're in a DF party, do not expect it. Do not expect speed run. Expect to clear the content, but not at record speed or maximum efficiency (because both suggest pre-formed parties where synergy can be performed to do this).

If you ask if they can put up Ballad toward the end of combat until the next pull, that's one thing. Ballad drops their AoE damage by 20%, so enemies die slower and may exhaust more resources. Bard may be TP starved by the end even with Invigorate and you may need to tank even longer.

But as long as you as a Paladin have the Riot Blade combo, their counter expectation is that you will use that to handle any MP concerns you have.

And if not, then to let group dynamics play a different role, e.g. you Flash less, let them use Quelling Strikes more, and/or pulling smaller waves.

Gonna sound like a troll post but like I tell my FC tanks: "Get gud." I won't run ballad because they're having issues holding aggro, read ability descriptions and learn how to tab target and maintain aggro. If things aren't dying fast enough then I'll start looking at the other DPS because I already know I'm doing all I can to drop things as quickly as possible while keeping myself out of AoEs to save healer's MP. Also I will always make sure if the healer isn't having to do intense healing, they're being told the use holy and cleric stance to speed things along. As the bard in the group I can watch over everyone else and not worry losing dps because my job is so simple for the most part.

it's annoying yes. it takes 3 hours to cast and reduces our damage and you really don't need it.

My question is for melee dps and mages. How hard is it to cast limit break when you are supposed to?

As a bard, if you don't *NEED* ballad, I'm probably not going to cast it. -20% DPS is that much longer things are alive. That being said if I'm in a party with Pld, Whm, Blm, *Brd... and the Whm wants to use Holy, then yeah I'll use Ballad the quick stun and high damage is worth making sure they don't MP-out. Now if you're sleeping pulls and doing lock-out, you do NOT need ballad.

for WP Speeds i Do leave Ballad up for the pulls. but once we hit bosses, i take it off. I leave it up cause the WHM Holy Spams. The more AoE Spams we do, the harder for the Tank to Hold hate with out spamming flash. But really it depends on the Tank though.

IMO if its needed than it should be used, if nots really necessary than it shouldnt be used.

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Originally Posted by Akirakogami

it's annoying yes. it takes 3 hours to cast and reduces our damage and you really don't need it.

My question is for melee dps and mages. How hard is it to cast limit break when you are supposed to?

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OMG! So many times I tell the other DPS in group BEFORE the fight "use limit break at 25% of boss HP" 99% of the time they will either wait until 5% and totally waste a lvl 2 or not limit break at all. Seriously give bards a real limit break in 2.1 so I don't have to rely on someone else to do something so braindead for me.

Emmmm... really? Bards replying to this thread with things like "learn how to keep your mp" and "it's annoying cast a song my 20% of damage is more valuable "¿
I have no words to express my deception...

The op said when he queued in df. End of conversation. No you don't get a mana song as a tank because I won't encourage speed run mentality in a duty finder. Period.

If you want to speed run. Make a group, and any good bard will sing for you happily. But if you queue for a duty finder run, don't expect a speed run and do not pull multiple groups.