They're a dueling weapon, specifically stabbing/piercing. In FFXI you handled it like any other sword which in real life would shatter the thing let alone barely hurt something. So when you guys implement these type of weapons:
They're not like normal swords..proper handling please!
When Rapiers are implemented, remember one thing
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05-28-2011, 12:17 AMElexiaWhen Rapiers are implemented, remember one thing
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05-28-2011, 12:24 AMVesperiaAccording to that data mining leak from way back, fencing will be its own class in the armory system. If they are going to bother implementing fencing as a class in the armory system, it is pretty much guaranteed that they will treat the fencing weapons differently to any other such weapons. By that token, it can be safely assumed that rapiers will be wielded differently to the already-existing swords.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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05-28-2011, 12:36 AMTessaJallohincorrect, the Rapier is a thin razor sharp sabre, which in expert hands can cut something to ribbons, they're also very useful for parrying and riposts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
The Epee is a thin tubular blade with a pointed tip, used primarily in sport fencing, it can't cut along it's length, but is excellent at piercing.
a fencer would likely be using the rapier however, because it's capable of slashing and piercing, which is very important for actual warfare.
what i do NOT want to see however, is shields in the offhand.
Fencer should not be able to use a shield, and should focus entirely on the martial prowess of their graceful cuts, thrusts, and disables. -
05-28-2011, 12:40 AMSephr
If we gained Fencer as a class and then Red Mage as one of it's job specialisations (Fencing weapon skills, mixed with enfeebling magic and en- spells to perform a support/damage role) I would be all. over. it.
No idea how jobs work at this point though, it might be totally unapplicable to grant a Fencer access to magic once it gains a specialisation, but who knows. -
05-28-2011, 01:41 AMTerorilActually, they should be able to weild a Main Gauche in the off hand:Quote:
Originally Posted by TessaJalloh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger -
05-28-2011, 01:50 AMElexiaThis is what I figured.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teroril
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05-28-2011, 04:57 AMWynn
I hope if fencer does come to XIV they leave it void of any heal spells. Let the magic swordsman do what it was meant to do. Fight monsters with a magicked sword.
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05-28-2011, 05:23 AMTeknomanIf you mean animations wise, I full support this. Hopefully they make damage types play a much bigger roll too. Blunt and piercing(?) does better damage to hard shelled/scaled enemies, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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05-28-2011, 05:25 AMTessaJallohthat would be nice too, however i'm rather tired of always seeing duel wielding when no shield is in the off hand. making Fencer only use a single weapon and no defensive option on the offhand would make it have a strong presence when compared to whatever dual dagger wielding class we no doubt will see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Teroril
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05-28-2011, 05:26 AMOMEGA_HACK
Actually as a trained Actor Combatant in Rapier and Dagger, and Small Sword (same blade, different weight placement and very different style use) also having co-taught the class at my University as part of my Senior Capstone I will give more insight that lolwiki can give:
1) Rapier and dagger is traditionally NOT a real style of fighting, it is made up therefore the sky is the limit, and why I am sure SE didn't think much into making it look any different from a regular sword swing.
2) Small sword and rapier use the same exact blade types, Epee blades being the most popular, although the weight in the pummel (the nob at the end of the handle) varies from the weapon types due to the fact that Small Sword has more thrusts meaning it has more of a perfect center balance, on the other hand Rapier tends to have a heavier pummel to allow for more powerful cutting attacks.
3) The only part of the Epee blade that is really sharp is the foible, which is only about 6in give or take from the tip of the blade in. From there you are have mid-blade which can cut but its not practical to do so given it not really being too sharp. Finally there is the Forte which is the base of the blade, the strongest part of the blade and where all your parries should come from, also there is the quions near the forte that you can even trap a blade with and snap it (I hope they make this a Fencing ability, Weapon Break)
4) You would not use a shield with either of these weapons as it would remove what a fighter of this weapon call his "active hand". Since the only sharp portion of the blade is the foible (razor blade sharp) you would be able to use your free hand or active hand to either A) grab and disarm while parrying an attack or B) follow a parry with your weapon with a beat parry to open the opponent up for an attack.
5) As far as Rapier and Dagger go, while not a historically accurate fighting style I would like to see this implemented as an option, BUT ONLY DAGGERS, knifes, kukris, butcher knifes and the like wouldn't work the same way... The dagger should be 60% defensive and 40% offensive in terms of what it could do, as that is how the dagger functions when being held with the rapier.
6) If they choose to use the Small Sword Epee style, I would have to say 100% thrusting weapon, rapier style 70% thrusting 30% cutting, the dagger portion should be 20% cutting, 20% thrusting/stabbing 60% defensive only.
Okay, I am being picky and specific but that is how its written and Square-Enix wants to be accurately correct when making the animations they need to focus on something like above. -
05-28-2011, 05:44 AMAzurus
this thread has beena very interesting read, a nice break from the norm. Thanks to all those involved.
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05-28-2011, 06:00 AMOMEGA_HACK
Well if SE is interested I can also teach them the proper ways to handle a Quarterstaff/lance (both use the same mechanics)
All three stances as well: Long-form, pike, and standard :O
(If they haven't caught on, I'm an actor combatant looking for work haha!) -
05-28-2011, 07:08 AMTessaJallohwhilst a fun profession, stage fighting has very little basis in historical combat unless done specifically for historical accuracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by OMEGA_HACK
please see here for the Main Gauche, or Parrying dagger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parrying_dagger
it's not a long article, but it is informative about a style of fighting long lost to modern fencing. -
05-28-2011, 09:31 AMBalbanesI thought you were going to say "please don't call the job Rapist".Quote:
When Rapiers are implemented
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05-28-2011, 12:13 PMKilta_Firelotus
Actually some fencing styles do have a buckler style shield present. Red mage is infact a magical fencer and is almost always seen weidling a rapier and shield.
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05-28-2011, 02:47 PMOMEGA_HACK
Actually stage combat's roots are from the historical books on duels. I actually have a book right in front of me: Stage Fighting: A Practical Guide by Jonathan Howell that talks a lot about the historical tie-ins with different weapons and how modern film is butchering the historical styles (looking at you Star Wars and The Matrix!!) Albeit, as cool as they are they misuse the weapons' style.
If you want to see some good small sword/rapier fights look into the Duelist, or something a little more new The Borgias on Showtime (the first few episodes have some really good and historical stage fights, there is even one that uses Small Sword technique while the opponent uses Rapier technique). -
05-28-2011, 07:51 PMDuelle*blink* Wait, there people other than me out there that want Red Mage to use a rapier for magic-coated combat? Color me surprised. XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Wynn
On topic, I agree on the Fencer class having their own stance and selection of abilities. It needs to reflect the elegance associated to the rapier. Would be awesome if they also implemented the option to offhand a dagger to act as a main gauche. -
05-28-2011, 08:50 PMAverIf they made RDM the way RDM was supposed to be, FFXIV would be more even more redmagefantasyXIV than XI was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
I, for one, would be on the bandwagon. -
05-28-2011, 10:28 PMKurokikaze
I think you guys need to forget about everything you saw in the dats because theres a good chance they won't get used.
I'm talking about Shepherd, Fencer, etc etc. Not so much for Arcanist and Musketeer.
No I'm not being pessimistic, I'm being realistic. If you can't see why I say that then you wouldn't agree with me even if I explained my point. So I will leave it at that. -
05-28-2011, 11:50 PMElexia
I was mostly talking about in general because it always irked me the way the Rapier (or Epee for those specific people :P) were handled in XI lol. Since it's inevtible they'll get around to adding Rapier class weapons since the long/broad/scimitar can only go so far.
Hell even in Ys VI Adol handled the Livart, Blirante and Ericcil (the Epee) differently xD. -
05-29-2011, 07:54 AMTessaJallohyeah, i agree, D: i wanted rapiers and Epees to have a different combat anim, but sadly they got classed as 'sword' and that was the end of it. FFXI however had those restrictions for a reason, every new anim set required more space, and the ps2 hard drive wasn't exactly huge, they used it a lot more in japan than everyone else did because we didn't get many of the other games to utilise it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elexia
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05-29-2011, 08:26 AMDuelleA fighter mage class designed with fighter mage mechanics and a magic fencer-type weapon in mind suddenly becoming popular? Naw. >.>Quote:
Originally Posted by Aver
And we agree with you. Rapiers, Epee and Sabers need their own animations, which will (hopefully) most likely be a consequence of the Fencer class being added.Quote:
I was mostly talking about in general because it always irked me the way the Rapier (or Epee for those specific people :P) were handled in XI lol. Since it's inevtible they'll get around to adding Rapier class weapons since the long/broad/scimitar can only go so far.