WP Single Target and AOE DPS Enmity Problems

When I do WP in the DF, I sometimes get 1 DPS that likes to focus on single target damage and another DPS that likes to do AOE damage. Sometimes I try to talk things out with the DPS but it doesn't always work out (examples: a dragoon refuses to AOE or a bard leaves because they don't like attacking a single target). I try to hold enmity the best I can from the single target DPS and AOE DPS but it doesn't work out when they both have relics (I have relic +1 PLD btw).

My rotation is usually this (assume 4 targets):
Shield lob target 1
Flash
Fast Blade->Savage Blade->Rage of Halone target 1
Flash

Fast Blade target 1
Savage blade target 2
Rage of Halone target 1
Flash
Fast Blade target 1
Savage blade target 3
Rage of Halone target 1
Flash
Fast Blade target 1
Savage blade target 4
Rage of Halone target 1
Flash
Keep repeating the above. If the primary target dies, Rage of Halone is focused on the following numbered target until each target is gone.

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with 1 single target DPS and 1 AOE DPS such as if my rotation is bad or the DPS need to do something?

Are you using Circle of Scorn? My typical starting rotation is:

Fight or Flight
Shield Lob
Flash
Circle of Scorn
Flash
RoH Combo Target 1

Then depending on the number of targets and how quickly things die I cycle targets and continue to flash as needed

My suggestion is they should get on the same page and stop being stupid...either everyone AOE or everyone should be single targeting...that is what makes Parties bad is the fact that players will not work together. You should not have to kill yourself to keep hate because they will not play right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nabian

Are you using Circle of Scorn? My typical starting rotation is:

Fight or Flight
Shield Lob
Flash
Circle of Scorn
Flash
RoH Combo Target 1

Then depending on the number of targets and how quickly things die I cycle targets and continue to flash as needed

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Thanks for the starting rotation and checking if I use Circle of Scorn. I usually use Circle of Scorn after my first fast blade and whenever it's available after that.

I use CDs. I'm pretty good as using Circle of Scorn immediately when it's available. I use Fight or Flight after shield lob if it's available. I usually use a single CD like rampart, sentinel, foresight, bulkwark at the beginning too so the healer doesn't have to do as much. I use Spirits Within on primary target sometimes but I use a gamepad and Spirits Within is not on my primary hot pad bar so I don't always activate it when it's available.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikedizzy

My suggestion is they should get on the same page and stop being stupid...either everyone AOE or everyone should be single targeting...that is what makes Parties bad is the fact that players will not work together. You should not have to kill yourself to keep hate because they will not play right.

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Thanks, I feel like the party should be attacking in unison too but it doesn't always work out. I am not a speed runner person atm. I have never done a speed run but know it basically involves (ignoring CDs) flash->flash->flash, out of MP so fast blade->riot blade then continue flash. I can hold enmity with single target killing approach on as many as 7 mobs when a terrible pull happens. I consider myself a decent tank on keeping enmity. But I really struggle when DPS decide to attack differently because I don't know how to and am not able to keep enmity from all targets and am looking for suggestions on how I can improve.

if geared DPS decide to split AoE and single target, there's not much you can do. You could ask the DRGs to maybe switch to a new target once in a while and focus on AoE rotation, but that would be asking a DPS to check the threat meters and we all know they're incapable of that.

I'm new to running WP but this seems to be working for me so far:

Mark targets
Shield Lob target 1
Circle of Scorn + Flash + Flash again
Fast Blade + Savage Blade + RoH target 1
Flash
Fast Blade + Savage Blade target 1
Dump the RoH on target 2
Flash
Fast Blade + Savage Blade target 1
Dump the RoH on Target 3
Flash

Once you get down to one target left, you'll have enough hate on it that you can just Fast Blade + Riot Strike a few times to get mp up for the next pull.

So far this is allowing me to hold hate (mostly) when I have one or two AoE dps'ers. Yes, this requires alot of extra work on my part, but I'm relic-less and finding I'm tanking for +1 folks so I'm going the extra mile to hold hate. When I have two single target DPS I don't get all fancy, I just focus on one target with them but I flash after each RoH combo to avoid losing hate to heals.

Thanks for the replies. It seems like things will be shaky at best when DPS decide to split between single target DPS and AOE DPS. I will try to improve my starting rotation and general rotation but realize there is only so much I can do and if I lose enmity it isn't completely my fault.

How i keep argo from alot of enemeis i do this way. It works out for me so far.

Shield Lob-Flash-Fast Savage Blade-Flash-Rage of Halone- Spirit Within-Fracture-Circle of Scorn
Then
Flash-Fast Blade-Savage Blade-Flash-Rage of Halone- Fracture

This how I keep argo with alot of enemies. even tho it single target base i mark my enemies that everyone can attack as one unit.

But if someone fail to attack one you should have enough argo from flash to use Savage Blade or Rage of Halone to keep it up.

lol, one benefit to being WAR is out simple rotation.

LOLforesight, convalescence, Vengeance, Infuriate......tomahawk.....bloodbath while closing on target.....flash....overpower...overpower...flash...overpower...overpower...overpower...flash...overpower...overpower....blah blah blah. and you think the PLD rotation is bad!

Good thing is with Relic and a BIG AOE I can hold threat on ALL of the targets without cycling targets, which makes it easy.

Back on topic, I tank with Ifrit blade (p5 just keeps ending in tragedy before my eyes) for relic + 1 speed runs, and I find I *usually* can hold agro with:

shield lob
fast blade -> 1
circle of scorn (repeat on CD)
savage blade -> 1
spirits within (repeat on CD)
flash
rage of halone -> 1
fast blade -> 1
savage blade -> 2
rage of halone -> 3
flash
fast blade -> 1
savage blade -> 3
rage of halone -> 2

Last run I had the exact scenario you describe, lancer in full ilvl 90 + relic +1 refusing to AOE and a slightly less geared bard doing nothing but AOE. I lost agro on 2 mobs in the run.

It's hard and it's frustrating, but try and just take those runs as opportunities to get even better at tanking. They'll make your other runs feel really really easy. :P

Well I think the problem is "DF" if your going to DF ask up front AoE or Single target. IF ST pull group by group, if AoE ask your healer "2or3 pulls before 1st boss? And 1or2 Pulls after 2nd boss before last boss?". Take it from there, If AoE you should have more then 3-4targets anyways(Flash/Riot spam). You shouldn't really have a issue if 1 is ST and 1 is aoe on 3mobs, unless both are using there's CD's at the same time. I'm not one to try to over think it say 1FB 3SB 2RoH if in a multi target situation with people focusing on different mobs, I just adjust the rotation/cycle targets to the situation/enmity bar. I pretty much only do WP in pre-made AoE party(Blm+Brd), If you have 2 strong single target DPS AK can still be done in 20min's. If I'm going to DF I'll just do AK and normal run it, cause your not expecting other people to think differently. Id personally still rather just garuda spam for myth(alot less running around, lol)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by xRitzx

Does anyone have any suggestions for how to deal with 1 single target DPS and 1 AOE DPS such as if my rotation is bad or the DPS need to do something?

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#1 - Make sure Shield Oath is up (I know, it's dumb, but I'm guilty of it more than once, it makes a BIG difference to Flash +enmity)
#2 - Use 'Fight or Flight' on cooldown, every time.
#3 - Circle of Scorn and Spirits Within every time they're off cooldown, unless you specifically need to save Spirits for silencing something (e.g. Succubus)

On each 3-4 mob pull, I'll try to do the following:
(i) Mark at least the first two targets
(ii) Flash twice at the start before you do anything else. Use Circle of Scorn in between them since it's off GCD.
(iii) Do a complete Rage of Halone combo on your first target, weave in "Spirits Within" since it's off GCD.

When I'm starting out and have 3-4+ enemies, I'll keep using Flash:
+ Flash
+ Fast Blade -> Savage Blade [Target #1]
+ Rage of Halone [Target #2/#3/#4, tab between them and check hate levels]

If the primary target loses hate after a few rotations, don't panic. It's a trash mob and if it's receiving sufficiently high spike damage to rip it away from you, it should nearly be dead anyway. Your priority is stopping the other targets from going after your mages due to AoE spam. In extreme cases you can interrupt a Rage of Halone combo to use Shield Bash to stun it for 6 seconds, by which time it should DEFINITELY be dead.

When a few mobs die and I only have 2-3 enemies left, I can generally get away with stopping flashing and just cycling the Rage of Halone combo. Certain Monks can rip aggro off you even then, but as mentioned above the enemies will nearly be dead by the time they do so and you can always Cover or Provoke in emergencies. Don't worry about it too much.

If you're doing "Speed runs" (not tanking 3-4 mobs but 7-12+) then you're going to want to do nothing but Flash and Circle of Scorn and use your big damage reduction cooldowns. Use the Riot Blade combo towards the end to recover MP if needed, and sometimes you'll need to provoke and/or cover someone. You can occasionally afford the GCD it'd take to use Shield Bash something if it starts casting a nasty Cone or AoE.

Finally: tell the Bard to use Quelling Strikes if they're going to throw out a lot of sudden spike damage. I currently only have the standard Relic (not +1) but I'm still generally fine with out-tanking any other AoE damage (even Flare or Holy Spammers) but certain BRD's spike damage potential seems to trump everything else (bar Medica 2 spam) in terms of pulling sudden AoE aggro. Over time it's much less of an issue, but those sudden spikes can cause a lot of issues if the BRD decides to let rip at the very start of a fight and they're not using Quelling Strikes.