Twisting [Life Surge] and [Speed Surge]

I use the word twisting in reference to some other games (like LoTRO), where a class such as a bard could activate a song that would last 30 seconds, but playing the song itself would only take a few.

In these cases, the bard could "twist" the effects together to keep 3 or 4 or even 5 different effects going at once.

Now for Lancers, I think I similar result can be achieved using Life Surge and Speed Surge. Both abilities have an effect that is applied to an enemy upon a successful attack.

Life Surge : Grants 'absorb HP' to the Lancer only, for both basic attacks and weaponskills, and gives an evasion debuff to the targetted enemy.

Speed Surge : Grants 'absorb HP' to the entire party, but only for basic attack, and increases stamina regeneration for the Lancer only.

Now, after striking an enemy with either of these abilities, the on-hit effect for the enemy is applied, and it persists for around 30 seconds, even if the ability on the Lancer fades.

Note also that Life Surge has no direct effect on the Lancer... its only action is through the debuff effect applied to the enemy target.

Here is how I have been trying to use these two.

• Begin the fight with Life Surge. My stamina bar is full, so having the extra stamina regen at the beginning is not that useful.
• Strike the enemy with Life Surge, applying the evasion debuff and "Lancer only HP absorb". This is great, because it even works with weaponskills, give back around 20 to 25% of the damage dealt.
• Cast Speed Surge. Now strike the enemy, and both the Life Surge and Speed Surge effects will be in place. Regular attacks will pop up two little numbers of curing, as both the Life Surge and Speed Surge grant you HP.
• You and your party get the full benefit of Life Surge and Speed Surge for around 30 seconds.
• After Life Surge wears off the enemy, you can recast Life Surge, re-apply the effect, and then recast Speed Surge again.

Both effects last for around 30 seconds, and both abilities have a 30 second recast, so they can't stay up 100%, but can get pretty close.

I'm still playing around with this mechanic, so if anyone else messes with it and provides more insight or feedback, I'd appreciate it! :)

This sounds very interesting indeed! I'll try it out later to see how well this works. ^^

Indeed... I've been playing with different action palettes lately, and different skill rotations. I'll give this one a shot and see how it goes for me ^^

Using them both never occurred to me.
You'd have to prove that activating both of them would not end up burning more stamina than speed surge regenerates, which is my main concern.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Using them both never occurred to me.
You'd have to prove that activating both of them would not end up burning more stamina than speed surge regenerates, which is my main concern.

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This is a good point, but measuring the stamina increase of Speed Surge is a little tricky. Not impossibly so, just something I haven't done yet. My intuition is that it's really only viable with Speed Surge II, as its stamina regen feels much better then the tier I.

This thought came up for me when I discovered the Life Surge allowed me to HP regen off of weaponskills (Life Surge only works on basic attacks, so is pretty weak). This makes Life Surge much more attractive, but I found that I was running out stamina much more quickly without Speed Surge active.

I'm still not sure if twisting these helps overall, but I figured I'd toss it out for people to test out, play with and generally poke at.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Using them both never occurred to me.
You'd have to prove that activating both of them would not end up burning more stamina than speed surge regenerates, which is my main concern.

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That's why I don't do this anymore. It's too much of a hassle and not really worth it in the end. Plus, it generates too much hate in a party.

I see it as something far more useful in solo/duo situations, especially if you're tanking for a squishy. I'll try it out on Bardi tomorrow. Fighting him and spamming TV puts Stamina at a premium, so its seems to me to be the perfect test.

Yeah it's definitely a good tanking ability. They HATE surges.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Using them both never occurred to me.

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Probably because you still don't have speed surge II. Both should always be an option. If you're having trouble hitting, pop on life and get the eva proc then swap back to SSII. If your acc is fine, ride SSII.

This really only applies to fights that are going to last longer than 30seconds, so pretty much just NMs unless you're overcamping.

Really hurts my head that anyone would think that simply riding 1 or the other would be optimal in all situations.

I went out hunting some with SS2 and Life surge. Currently spec'd for DD. I was fighting R35-40 Djiggas @ rank 45. I found that without using both, I still required one cure and one sacrifice and two life surges to keep over 50%. Cycling SS2 and LS, I was getting 70-100 HP per hit. No cure or sacrifice or Life Surge, and I never dropped below 50% HP. This of course is all without the use of weapon skills. Certainly seems viable, the HoT gained by that cycle far exceeds that of Sacrifice. Next up, taking on some mongrels with a twisting vice spam cycle.

EDIT:
So, fighting the mongrels, R46, I'm R45. Not really a problem without fancy tricks. I tried SS2 with LS second, at which point the lack of stamina began to break down the weapon skill cycle. This is mitigated by the HoT you gain to some extent (because you are not casting spells as frequently), but the lack of stamina is not completely relieved by the lack of casting.

With LS first, and SS2 on top, I had plenty of stamina at the expense of increased HoT. There was no issue maintaining both LS and SS2 while having a full cycle of weapon skills. That is, Twisting Vice every time it was ready, and added Skewer II and Heavy Trammel every time I broke 2.5k TP. The increased healing was not a significant load to my cycle. The fight was much easier.

Conclusions?
It seems to me that in a fight where weapon skills are not wanted (djiggas, bombs, etc.) the cycle of SS2 with LS on top is the way to go. Stamina is not at a premium, so it makes sense. In fights with weapon skills adding life surge (for the EVA debuff) with SS2 on top is the way to go if you're the only LNC. The impact to the ability cycle is minimal, and a debuff is a debuff. The only exception to this seems to me would be when you are tanking, and someone else is spamming Twisting Vice (but you are the only one with SS2 + LS).

Unfortunately...
This is all a moot point come June when it all changes.

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Originally Posted by Airlea

Probably because you still don't have speed surge II.
Really hurts my head that anyone would think that simply riding 1 or the other would be optimal in all situations.

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Considering no one said that, you're obviously just mad from the other topic.

As another lancer said, it's not worth the hastle and probably best to just pick one or the other for that situation. I believe it. It doesn't look like it would on paper, don't have to have the abilities to necessarily come to that conclusion. You just have to be a believer in the null hypothesis sometimes, not a believer in every little thing you do mattering just because it's you that does it.

"A debuff is a debuff" is a logical fallacy. Sometimes one more doesn't matter. That statement depends on an all or none mode of thinking, when that line of thinking is more detached from reality and thus irrelevant to the truth. You have to ask what your debuff is actually worth, because it is costing you something. Not just "is it there or not."

Sometimes a debuff is just meaningless wheel spinning.

Life surge may be a complete waste of stamina compared to lancers equipping disorient and contributing to keeping it stacked to x3 with that stamina. I kick up a disorient II at the start of fights while on lancer. Not as much hate as a token life surge, and I bet that disorient x3 blows life surge out of the water if two other meleers kick up and do the same immediately.

Then you have to ask yourself what is the benefit of life surge debuff on a disorientx3'd mob? Probbly nil.

Haha, i remember having this conversation months ago, i've actually seen the effects and tried it on grind parties. Switching Surges like that is not worth the stamina cost(cost more than the stamina generated by Speed Surge II - and thats only if the mob is alive with activated speed surge on for over 2 mins~ assuming u hit consistantly, if the mob is alive for over 30 sec, its not worth partying or switch mobs).

Its easy to think or talk about switching skills but in actual application its not worth it unless u do NMs, and even on NM(if only 1 LNC is present) its better to stick with Life Surge to help the entire party(havnt fought NMs as party since their nerf), if multiple LNC, then make 1 into debuffer and rest go haste.

Solo play, yes u should switch skills, if u really need it but thn again life surge(my solo perference) helps alot during solo play because of HP absorb and pseudo bloodbath with each weaponskills but solo play really depends on the player's set up.

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Originally Posted by Peregrine

Considering no one said that, you're obviously just mad from the other topic.

As another lancer said, it's not worth the hastle and probably best to just pick one or the other for that situation. I believe it. It doesn't look like it would on paper, don't have to have the abilities to necessarily come to that conclusion. You just have to be a believer in the null hypothesis sometimes, not a believer in every little thing you do mattering just because it's you that does it.

"A debuff is a debuff" is a logical fallacy. Sometimes one more doesn't matter. That statement depends on an all or none mode of thinking, when that line of thinking is more detached from reality and thus irrelevant to the truth. You have to ask what your debuff is actually worth, because it is costing you something. Not just "is it there or not."

Sometimes a debuff is just meaningless wheel spinning.

Life surge may be a complete waste of stamina compared to lancers equipping disorient and contributing to keeping it stacked to x3 with that stamina. I kick up a disorient II at the start of fights while on lancer. Not as much hate as a token life surge, and I bet that disorient x3 blows life surge out of the water if two other meleers kick up and do the same immediately.

Then you have to ask yourself what is the benefit of life surge debuff on a disorientx3'd mob? Probbly nil.

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tl;dr = As has been stated, life surge is rarely useful outside of solo play, though it still has it's situational use. I can only hope that this post will promulgate the peerless perfection with which I produce proclamations of my perfidious perspicacity.

So, uh... Now that Stamina is gone.... This strategy is a lot better now, isn't it? o_o You could just start off with Life Surge, lower the enemy's evasion, then cast Speed Surge right after an auto-attack with absolutely no drawback.

You lower the targets evasion for the party, then you gain a faster attack speed and give Absorb HP to the party.

Indeed. In fact, I do keep both of them on my bar except in battles that benefit from more specialized setups and I simply don't have the points for it.

Seeing how you sometimes miss and and how the effect sometimes fails to proc, it seems somewhat unlikely that you can consistently keep both effects on. I suppose it could be something to experiment with, though.

Time spent activating an ability is still time not spent using a different ability with more offensive value. With the accuracy changes, Life Surge is not very valuable, and if Speed Surge affects autoattack delay similarly to how it affected stamina regen (flat 8% stamina regen increase for both I and II, tested extensively), it's even more of a necessity in order to best weave WSs and abilities through autoattacks.