The issue with bards/blms

I hate to tank in a party with only 2 bards/blm as DPS.This is the worst scenario combination.With other DPS classes I never have any problems.
Especially it is hard to deal with relic+1 who does not know when to stop for the tank to recover enmity <.<

I was once in groups with relic+1 bard who thinks his dps is too awesome to wait for the tanks enmity rotation.I guess I must upgrade my relic weapon.

Why do bards/blm gain so much enmity if they try then other DPS classes?I'm lvling bard myself & make sure not to do things that would trouble the tank's Life and control my enmity!

I'm going to say that it is not them generating more emnity, its that they are ranged and can start spooling up their DPS faster than say a DRG or MNK as these roles require positioning. That would boil down to them needing to give you a sec to generate threat, as you said.

BRD Foe Requiem boosts BLMS damage by 20%. Add that to AOE from both BLM and BRD and it's major damage.

Since you're a WAR I'd overpower and cross class flash like mad. Basically tab target your rotation with overpower and flash in between. The reason you're losing hate is because they're hitting things you aren't.

berserk and overpower

If the dps wants to throw their dps at the wall and pull off you then let them. A dps should know how to control themselves accordingly, I had a brd +1 all decked out in I90 gear ecept 3 peices, and a respectfully geared BLM and I found it rather easy to hold threat off them. I marked as well. If the dps don't wanna play nice then don't sweat it. Remember this is a game.

Buff yourself up before each pull, and ask them to wait until you finish your first tank rotation.

How geared are you as a tank? If you're less geared than the +1s, ask them to tone it down a bit. Worst scenario is they leave, and you get new DPS quickly.

If you ask them to tone it back and they don't (esp if they like AoE spam), let them die, and tell them that unless they focus-fire or tone it down you won't grab aggro back, and hope the heal is on your side. Its cruel...but really geared DPS that just go full-out with BFB/Raging Strikes and expect every tank to be as geared as them and hold aggro 100% of the time (even on non-target mobs) are not good DPS.

If I see this as a heal (tank having trouble with overzealous DPS), I will let them (the troublesome DPS) die, and ask them to focus fire and/or tone it down until tank has aggro. Dungeons are a team effort, after all, and if someone isn't playing that way I'm not going to be sorry. And yes, I do warn people first before doing this...but issues are usually with overgeared, not undergeared players...


And like it was suggested, Berserk + Unchained + Overpower is an absolutely amazing aggro-magnet. I run with one WAR in WP who'll do that and then tab-out til all the mobs are dead without losing aggro (when I run its DRG/BLM, DRG/BRD or DRG/SMN...Doom Spike + BFB + IR is amazing AoE...and yes, the DPS are geared...)

Just an FYI, as I have said classes 50 & Relic with full DL (including both tanks), Blm and Brd have a lot of front loading in their DD. Especially Brd. As an example, a Brd with proper sub classes lvled has *5* CDs to blow at the start of most fights. You can argue them to wait, and for new tanks especially they probably should, but on most tanks/fights it is optimal for them to blow said CDs so they are used more then once a fight. I personally wait to have at least 2 CDs (Internal release especially) to get my DoTs out, which is basically the start of ST rotation, and overall DPS. Then I am pulling out Bloodletters as I get procs (at least a couple procs within the 14sec. DoTs), and crits also play a factor.

All in all, even Relic tanks I have to throttle hate on a lot of time. Every Brd/Blm should have Quelling Strikes if they are geared and know their class. Blm can be the same way. Depending on crits, and firestarter procs (free Fire III) you can really jump in hate quick on the Tank. I find with quelling strikes Blm is a bit easier to not surpass the tank in threat if they are doing their rotation right. You will always be pushing the envelope a little, but Brd (especially in first 1/4 of boss' health) can really just go overboard. Either way, I always wait ~5 seconds or so before I even start DDing and don't think I've ever heard any tank complaints.

As a fellow tank, just make sure you are doing your rotations well. If a DD is just decked out in gear, Berserk definitely might be a good option early in the fight. Make sure you are pulling/running in with Tomahawk > BB combo > BB combo > SE combo to establish threat. You really shouldn't have an issue with 95% of DD if you are doing that (especially with your Relic Axe, you shouldn't have to +1). To be honest, you might even consider doing BB combo x3 if you see the Brd/Blm really riding your threat at the start. After that time their Buffs will have worn off, and you'll get some more substantial threat lead.

TL, DR; Blm/Brd have huge front load potential. Threat combos/buffs should keep you ahead if you are relic.

As someone who plays both BRD and PLD I think the issue is... DoTs... at least for brd. We use 3 Dot's (vb, wb, and fa). These make up a huge portion of my dmg and can easily take me from half threat to tanking by themselves even with a good tank. I cannot take them off, so even if I see my aggro creeping up into the danger zone I may or may not be able to do anything at all about it.

BLM I suspect just hits too hard. A big crit can take a blm from virtually no aggro to full aggro in half a second.

It's a player issue. BRD and BLM both have high burst capabilities and have to learn to control their damage output. It sucks having to hold back, but it sucks even worse dying.

Both classes are proc heavy. A brd just cant not hit blood letter, and I dont blame em.

I don't know, but 2 overpower + 1 enmity combo is enough to hold 1 mob then switch that enmity combo 1 in your main target 2hit on the second and 3hit on the third mob. That should keep them up on you. After that is just cake and do the other combos 4, 5 ,6 or 7 ,8 ,9.

well +1 bards/blms are more tough to deal with, guess I adapt my rotation in more defensive tanking ,which means enmity combos over DPS.When I have mixed DPS I can switch to my basic rotation & balance tanking & DPSing out .

Id say it has more to do with them attacking as soon as u pull+Burst. I have only had a few issue's myself tanking, especially when trying to position a boss at the start. It's been posted many times that enmity is a team effort, if a brd wants to pull hate at the very start good chance he/she can. I even push this when I play brd here and there. Here's a example playing around with a parser, both my smn and brd are geared the same DL/Relic. My smn has higher dps overtime not counting bane or shadow flare. While my brd is lower overall dps it's short spike dps can reach over 330dps. Blm I haven't really had a issue with/have it lv'ed I could only assume it's lucky/early thundercloud/firestarter procs. If it's a aoe hate issue and there doing so constantly you just adjust to aoe tanking vs single target. Downside to this is War has limited resources(TP/MP) while Pld can just flash and restore there own MP.

The main issue is simply the inconsistency with their damage. Some times they'll go all out on AoE and sometimes they'll go all out on Single Target, making it difficult to judge what abilities you should be using.

I feel you. I main on bard and me and my tank buddy dread the times when there is another bard in the same run. Well...at least it makes it pretty predictable whom to watch out for because in 80 % of all cases this second bard will pull hate. My buddy is a pretty good tank and well geared but all of that doesn't help if the bard is attacking too early. The existence of quelling strikes also seems to be unknown to some of them.
When I pug, I try to gauge the tanks ability with the first few pulls. I generally wait a bit in the beginning and then start my rotation...if that is still too much I start each pull with quelling strike activated to give the tank some chance.
I all that doesn't help...well...then I have to auto attack through the dungeon and the problem is somewhere else.
Personally I think that most hate issues come from trigger happy brd and blm that can't wait a few seconds for the tank to grab hate. That and ignorance towards hate reducing skills because it might lower their dps output or something.

The dps is probably just being lazy. Both of the named classes can multi dot to slow down their threat on a single target. If they're about to pull, they could swap targets and hit something else for a few globals. If you're playing a tank competently there will be plenty of threat to go around. It's generally just lazy/sloppy play from the dps because hey, they're overgeared for the dungeon so no need to pay attention, the healer can clean up their mess. -.-

If they're pulling on a boss (again, assuming you're doing your job properly as a tank, popping threat CDs at the start, etc.), then they're just playing stupid.

Have to agree with OP with regards to bards. Its coupled by the fact it's harder to gain hate back because mobs keep moving away to ranged distance and bards keep unloading regardless.

Funny that you bring that up, Quelling Strikes that is. Both Blm and Brd have access to it, and for sure it should used for early burst damage on a target. I think it's more of a mentality perception all tho it says "Reduces enmity generated by each attack." I think most DPS that don't care, read it as "Make's you look like your doing less damage.". Cause If your not riding the threat line/pulling hate your not top DPS>_>

Hate to throw out names, but BRDs are by far the WORST job to tank for. I always have issues with BRDs, sometimes DRG too, but mostly BRD. They love going balls out as soon as I shield lob. I'm talking as soon as the mob is red, there they go. It sucks during bosses that I have to position like the first boss in WP and the last boss in AK. They go balls out while I'm running with the boss trying to get them in the right spot, and they go all out right away. All I did was shield lob, of course they'll get aggro from me. Oh and none of them have Quelling Strikes on their bars. At least the ones I talked to. Oh yeah, and they never seem to follow the kill order either >.>

I had a group just today accuse me of buying my account then being an RMT cause I couldn't hold aggro on trash. Of course they weren't waiting for me to pull or establish aggro or anything. I left that party fast and leveled GSM instead. had more fun.

i think it is player issue combined with not knowing how quelling strikes work

as for the trash mobs, there is no reason to stay at max range so even if you are trigger happy like me, just stand next to mob you are attacking and the tank will pull it of you easily if you mess up a little :P

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stalkster

I think it's more of a mentality perception all tho it says "Reduces enmity generated by each attack." I think most DPS that don't care, read it as "Make's you look like your doing less damage."

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or read it as "detaunt" meaning you have to hit it after you pull aggro :P