Stronger punishments for bailing

The 15 minute punishment just isn't enough. As DPS you routinely have to queue 30-40 minutes to get a party via the DF, and it's all too frequent that some primadonna tank shows up and either:

a) Takes one look at the team, decides that the party isn't sufficiently over-gearred for his discerning taste

b) Within 10 seconds of the fight starting, the newbiest member of the party makes a simple mistake (Usually starts healing or attacking before the tank can build a meaningful amount of emnity)

To which the tank responses by screaming "you all suck" and bailing.

It doesn't seem fair that he should get only a 15 minute penalty, while the rest of us DPS have to suck down a 30-40 minute "penalty" sitting in the duty finder. Either they need to implement a way for the non-quitters to get reassigned, under-cutting the queue, or - for a sense of poetic justice; take the longest queue time served by the party, and slap that plus an extra 15 minutes onto the leaver. Either way, tanks are already made to feel like virtual royalty, who you bow and scrape before lest they bail, without giving them a means to mete out 30-45 minute punishments to DPS just because their whim dictates.

And let's be clear here... it is always, without fail - the tank. Never the healer, nor the DPS.

I've had Healers bail on us because the tank wasn't geared enough to their liking.

Just sayin'.

This is an MMO. Make some friends, or pay a geared Tank to run you, ask your LS/FC, etc..

Do not expect perfection from public Duty Finder, especially when players on other servers have NO loyalty to you or reputation to worry about.

If the punishment for bailing on a group was as long as it takes a DPS to queue for a dungeon people would probably think twice about bailing on a group because they're making the run two minutes slower than it could be.

This might not be the best place for this but it fits with the thread and no need to create a new one. I don't usually quit (I think last time I quit was when a DF team spent about 15 minutes on Garuda and still failed because we didn't have enough DPS) but when I do quit the lock out timer is longer than 15 minutes. It's probably closer to 20 minutes (not exaggerating) even though I haven't timed it exactly. I'm on PS3 so maybe that's why. Anyone else experience a longer lock out than 15 minutes?

So why not replenish ranks when they leave? Why don't you go in as a tank? Why are you expecting everyone to be as noble as you?

There are at least half a dozen solutions you could implement yourself instead of complaining about a situation.

Sorry if this sounds harsh but if you have done nothing to make the situation better besides complaining very little sympathy will be thrown your way.

That's like if someone said their house was on fire and no one came to help put it out, and your solution is to shut up and become a fireman and handle it yourself.

Or, perhaps, people in general could treat others the way they'd want to be treated were positions reversed.

It's not always the tank (Coming from someone who has never tanked, by the way)

Also, since there are no other methods of abandoning a party, I'd prefer to keep the punishment what it is. If we die multiple times on an early boss in a dungeon and clearly don't have enough time to finish that dungeon. Even if nobody else on the team will admit that, I'm leaving. I'm not going to stick around for an extra half hour to prove myself right.

I try as hard as I can to stick it out with parties, teach them what they're doing wrong or could be doing better, and generally just be as courteous as can be. But some parties are just a lost cause and it shouldn't ruin your play time to just say "Sorry, I don't have time for this."

you would be waiting longer for a group because the tanks would be playing alt or crafting while waiting for the timer to wear off . And then you would get group and they would bail again because your gear is utter garbage .

also say they implemented a 24 hour lock out for example .

If I got a super bad group , and you get a lot of them , I would also play badly till someone rage quits and they eat the 24 hr lock out . It would be the longgggest dungeon run of misery ever . They should actually remove the timer and give a bonus to players who join groups in progress .

If the punishment was longer, I'd probably just go make a sandwich and wait for someone else to leave. I agree that your points a and b are not valid reasons to bail. There are, however, instances where you do get that DPS hellbent on AoEing all the slept mobs even after asking them not to several times. (Or they unleash some other kind of stupidity that makes you wonder how they got this far in the game (or how they manage to breath for that matter.)) If they cause multiple wipes due to shear ineptitude and show no signs of heeding advice given, they deserve the long queue that gets handed to them. Let them go sit in a corner and think about what they've done. Meanwhile, I'll be eating my sandwich.

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Originally Posted by Archona

Do not expect perfection from public Duty Finder, especially when players on other servers have NO loyalty to you or reputation to worry about.

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This cuts both ways, a tank shouldn't be bailing just a DF PUG because he failed to find perfection, not just for a PUG to be surprised to find a tank who is too much of a primadonna to breath the same air as anyone with less than a +1 relic and full allagan.

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Originally Posted by MercurialZero

If they cause multiple wipes due to shear ineptitude and show no signs of heeding advice given, they deserve the long queue that gets handed to them. Let them go sit in a corner and think about what they've done. Meanwhile, I'll be eating my sandwich.

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And this is the problem attitude I'm talking about. A party is not one DPS jockey - even a small party has 2 other people besides the idiot and the tank who're going to eat your punishment for one persons mistake.

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Originally Posted by RoosterAgathos

So why not replenish ranks when they leave? Why don't you go in as a tank? Why are you expecting everyone to be as noble as you?.

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You cannot replenish ranks in HM trials; and finding a tank to replace a lost tank in a dungeon is harder than finding a tank in the first place. No tank queues for "in progress" when they can get a fresh team that hasn't apparently had trouble retaining members in the past.

Also, "not bailing because the rest of the party has less than allagan gear" or "not bailing because someone accidentlly pulled aggro one time" isn't noble, it's just normal bloody courtesy. As for why I'm not a tank on that occasion? - Because you can't get a relic by doing the trials as a different class to the one you're gearing.

Ryuujin,

Level a tank through the DF experience. You'll come across just as many primadonna players in the healer and dps roles as you currently harp about in the tank role. Look forward to undergeared dps and healers tell you how horrible you are regardless of what you are (or are not) doing. Enjoy the level 50 experience of dps (and even healers) perceive you are going "too slow" and must unleash hell before you've done so much as a single tomahock throw or shield lob or feel the need to pick up additional packs. Learn the futility of marking mobs for a kill order when everyone seems to prefer to find their own target and spam AoE. Heaven forbid tanks just take a single mob group (with kill order) at time to get a feel for the dps/healers competence.

Not much of an issue now, but at launch it was amusing how everyone expected the tanks to know every boss fight in all dungeons and explain it to the rest of the group. Many healers and even dps would leave rather than "wasting" time to let a new tank learn the dungeon or bother to explain it themselves (or no one leaves...meaning you all waste the entire dungeon time allotment then take the debuff for completion failure).

Edit : Also, a harsher desertion penalty is going to hurt everyone in the group until a "vote kick" system is in place (not to mention the people that innocently leave through an unintentional disconnect). As pissed off as you are at primadonna tanks leaving your groups, you'll only get more frustrated when they just afk in the zone until someone else eats the deserter penalty.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

And this is the problem attitude I'm talking about. A party is not one DPS jockey - even a small party has 2 other people besides the idiot and the tank who're going to eat your punishment for one persons mistake.

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What you're forgetting is that there are times you will want to leave the dungeon. People will say that it's DF, you get what you get, and that's true. But sometimes what you get, cannot do the instance. Say you get a group that can't seem to beat the first boss in AK. You tell them what they're doing wrong, whatever. They still fail, multiple times. Should someone be punished for leaving because they KNOW people aren't getting it? It's clear when people improve, it's also clear when they do not. With your idea, it would be better for the person to afk at the entrance instead of taking the hit, they getting punished because they got unlucky with a bad group.

The blames should not always be put on the quitters. Say, yesterday I did AK with a tank whose HP was even less than mine (I'm a DD, my HP is 4k3 and his was 4k2 even with group buff). I gave it a try. Things seemed to go smoothly until the Wall (although on 1st boss it was "a bit" chaotic). He kept dying, falling, losing enmity. I was super patient, but after the 6th wipe I couldn't do anything but to quit.
So should I get punished stronger for something that isn't my fault?

You can't punish people for leaving a bad group. The whole entering and then leaving because the group is not OP doesn't happen as much as you think. The main reasons people leave are frustration with players who just are not getting mechanics or with a language barrier so they can't help people.

My reason for leaving 99% of the time is that i can't be bothered to wipe over and over trying to make people understand what they are doing wrong. I don't mind helping people who want to help themselves improve but it's not the job of anyone to carry bad players.

You can ignore the penalty of you make a pre-made group anyway. The only reason cor positions like tanks and healers use the DF is because its often easier than forming a group. If you make it harder for them your queues as dps are going to jump through the roof.

Realistic things that could be done to help this situation a little bit:

1. Make "Join in Progress" default ON, instead of default OFF. (This is so that after someone leaves, there's a higher chance of getting a replacement)

2. Implement "vote to kick" feature. (This way someone dissatisfied has another button to push besides "Leave". 1 person gets left without group instead of 3, and progress can continue.)


As for the idea of simply increasing the leaving lockout timer, that seems bad to me.
- You will have someone instead of leaving simply go AFK. They hope that someone else leaves first and eats the penalty. Cannot be replaced.
- If that someone leaving is a tank, then there is even LESS tanks playing in the dungeon. Which means even LESS everyone else playing in the dungeon too.

Bad idea is bad. Please go become a game designer and see for yourself.

Anyone that tries to make other ppl leave should have a PERMANENT DF BAN. On FIRST offense.

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Originally Posted by RhazeCain

Realistic things that could be done to help this situation a little bit:

1. Make "Join in Progress" default ON, instead of default OFF. (This is so that after someone leaves, there's a higher chance of getting a replacement)

2. Implement "vote to kick" feature. (This way someone dissatisfied has another button to push besides "Leave". 1 person gets left without group instead of 3, and progress can continue.)


As for the idea of simply increasing the leaving lockout timer, that seems bad to me.
- You will have someone instead of leaving simply go AFK. They hope that someone else leaves first and eats the penalty. Cannot be replaced.
- If that someone leaving is a tank, then there is even LESS tanks playing in the dungeon. Which means even LESS everyone else playing in the dungeon too.

Bad idea is bad. Please go become a game designer and see for yourself.

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vote kick the tank .. wait another 20 minutes for a new tank . great idea NOT!

make friends you will need them.. make a LS and start to collect friends ! i do most of my fights with my LS friends and trusting fc members

I strongly agree with everything that puts Tanks on more "equal terms" with everyone else. It is a terrible system when the rage quitter gets less "penality" than the ones he left in their moment of need.

I can also see the opposite side though. When you have a bad group. I personally can never leave a bad group unless it has 0% to win the instance because of q times and I find that terrible and wishes that upon nobody. BUT it would be good making tanks thinking twice about leaving, something they do not have to as it looks today.

Alot of cred to all the great tanks out there though :) All the lovely people who stick when people are not as geared as them even though they do not have to. Gold star to you all.

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Originally Posted by Lunavi

I strongly agree with everything that puts Tanks on more "equal terms" with everyone else. It is a terrible system when the rage quitter gets less "penality" than the ones he left in their moment of need.

I can also see the opposite side though. When you have a bad group. I personally can never leave a bad group unless it has 0% to win the instance because of q times and I find that terrible and wishes that upon nobody. BUT it would be good making tanks thinking twice about leaving, something they do not have to as it looks today.

Alot of cred to all the great tanks out there though :) All the lovely people who stick when people are not as geared as them even though they do not have to. Gold star to you all.

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I had group today playing healer in cutters cry , the tank killed one mob and instant quit . Took me over 30 mins to get group as healer . Ended up leaving because waiting for a tank to click join in progress would take hours probably .

I don't mind when people rage quit, because I'd rather not run with them anyway. Whenever players have quit during runs I was participating in, it's usually just a couple minutes before that person is replaced, and it's often a better player. So let them quit if they want to. Better off without them.

Be a tank.

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Originally Posted by IzumiRaito

Anyone that tries to make other ppl leave should have a PERMANENT DF BAN. On FIRST offense.

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Yeah that would be great. wp/ak would be wastelands.

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Originally Posted by Ninao

Be a tank.

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This. I find people don't stick with it when they find out what tanks or healers have to put up with. Ironically, as much as they complain about others it's usually the dps that start things in my experience. My favorite is when they roll into a df wp group in full darklight and relic +1 and then complain things aren't going fast enough or people aren't speed running. Let me get this straight, you're overgeared to trivialize content then rolled the dice in the df and aren't happy with what you got now you're upset? Then the tank is supposed to put up with 20-30 minutes of you suck l2p? I don't blame them for leaving.

longer penalties will only make you have to wait longer.

My impression was that the penalty was just to keep people from grinding dungeons for exp by leaving before the time wasting bosses. It doesn't need to be longer. if anything it should be shorter.

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Originally Posted by RyuujinZERO

...tanks are already made to feel like virtual royalty, who you bow and scrape before lest they bail...

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I am soooo demanding dps bow to me at the start of duties from now on. Her Grace is pleased with you peasant, you may bask in Her Grace's presence for a moment.

Edit: I just thought about it, and the game did hand me a crown at level 45. So, divine right, right?

I had made a suggestion in a separate thread regarding 'dungeon ditching'

There should be a huge penalty for leaving a group early into a Dungeon. Like within the first 15mins if someone leaves, they have to wait an hour before they can run another dungeon.

I think 15minutes is enough to get any player to give a group a chance before deciding that its hopeless.

For the Primal Fights; if you can't get them down by the 2 or 3 try on DF, I'm all for dumping the party. I think Primal fights should be limited to 3 tries. After that, you have to re-roll the duty again.

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Originally Posted by Grailer

I had group today playing healer in cutters cry , the tank killed one mob and instant quit . Took me over 30 mins to get group as healer . Ended up leaving because waiting for a tank to click join in progress would take hours probably .

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That's because the tank was probably doing his hunting log. Putting hunting logs in dungeons is just a bad idea. The increased XP from dungeons coming in 2.1 is a good idea to encourage more dungeon runners but not hunting logs IMO...

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Originally Posted by xRitzx

That's because the tank was probably doing his hunting log. Putting hunting logs in dungeons is just a bad idea. The increased XP from dungeons coming in 2.1 is a good idea to encourage more dungeon runners but not hunting logs IMO...

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The monsters killed for hunting log should only count after entire dungeon is cleared.

I wait on average 25+ mins for df. I could try to find my own group, but that is harder since everyone doing that wants speed runs. I still have to get more gear so I can attempt titan.

If you really have that much of an issue make your own group. If people left from my runs, it's because we really couldn't do the dungeon. This is a game and life happens deal with it.

Nah, when I join games and I see people in full soulbind gear I should have the option to leave.

These 2 shouldn't even be connected. It's obvious most dungeons are interwoven into both story & GC progression. So the devs attempts to force ppl to run/clear them are mundane to say the least. Leave logs outside of dungeons.

Rage quitting is inevitable, bc of the vast personalities & age group playing. I agree, penalties should be harsh, but how harsh & how would that harshness affect others in DF? Every implementation will have repercussion. We have to remember & be prepared for the consequences imposed actions bring. Finding a balance isn't always easy.

I agree with the idea of a greater punishment for leaving. There should be something done too to avoid people leaving DURING the fight, for example on Ifrit. It happens someone makes a mistake leading to a bad pull, it can often come back to a good configuration and people could let some chance to the new ones to a fight.

It's to often on the Ifrit fight that tnak pulls without caring of newbies or even while healers are buffing. I'm not surprised that a mage might not know he has to lb at it first time, if nobody takes the few seconds to explain.

Thus litlle patience won't do anything wrong for the well being of all.

You could make the requeue 2 months, and if the group I tank for is sapping all of the fun of playing, I'm not going to play.
(Not saying I leave for the reasons u mentioned, but that if I'm not having fun in a game, I'm not going to play, which I'm sure is the same for the other tanks.)

Instead of increasing penalty for the person that left, would it not be more fair to allow the other 3 party members to have a paused or time credited duty timer? This would allow time for a replacement to be found, who would likely drop anyhow when they saw that there was only 10 minutes left and the group is still at the wall, it would also be much less of a penalty to the 3 that decided to stay (and not leave to queue again).

Just seems vindictive to make someone suffer because, for whatever reason, the others weren't their cup of tea and they decide to leave but does seem fair to allow the others, and their new party member, another chance.

This definitely needs addressed.

You commit to a 90 min fight, that may or may not take the full amount of time. I completely understand unforeseeable events & empathize. What irks me is someone joins & quits for no reason.

Either gear not meeting their checklist, someone made a comment which quitter finds offensive (yep I've seen this) or somewhere during battle tank or healer dies, or we all wipe. All easily lead to Rage Quitting.

The biggest downside is:

1. 8 Players (often 1 quits & if randoms others follow)
2. Most generally still over 1/2 time remains on clock when experiencing rage quit
3. CANNOT just easily replace member

Other dungeons allow a "join" feature. HM Primes don't. They need to change this. Either implement "join" stipulating non-roll unless others pass (probably too harsh on one joining). I'm sure the devs could work out something beneficial to all. :)

There needs to be greater reward for joining party in progress. Ive had a few groups where a player just bails and we cant get replacement. If there was such a reward where tanks would actively seek groups in progress then that would solve a lot of bailing issues .

For Primals , imagine if there was a votekick function and the ability to join in progress, it would be a lot easier to do titan because you could kick players who were not up to the task and replace with hopefully better player without having to restart an entire new group in DF .

If the penalty were as long or longer than it takes for the dungeon to end, people who want to grief could just sit it out and afk until the dungeon's timer runs out. And being the first to legitly leave due to that would lock you out for even longer.

This would actually be horrible.