Scholar in Cleric Stance vs. Summoner

Some people are trying to convince me that a scholar is cleric stance does more DPS than a summoner. To be more clear, they argue that in equal gear and level, the scholar in cleric stance does more DPS than a summoner.

Seriously?

This isn't true, right >.>

I can't even imagine how it could possibly be true!!!

No. The DoT damage (Bio 2, Miasma, Bio) can and will be close or on par (considering how Cleric Stance works), but the lack of Fester and added pet damage will NOT make Scholar 'as good' as a Summoner who knows what he or she is doing.

It's possible that the person who told you this was not playing with a very good Summoner. To push out the MOST dps, we have to maintain as close to 100% DoT up time as possible, using pet abilities like Contagion (DoT extension) to supplement that. If a summoner is neglecting DoT up time and isn't using Aetherflow on cooldown (for 3 more aethercharges... yay, Fester), then they aren't maximizing their DPS. Some Summoners also forget about Rouse/Spur/Enkindle, which will increase pet DPS too.

Its not true, although a SCH can dish out very decent damage in Cleric Stance.

Scholar Cleric Stance has a 10% Potency buff and mind to int switch.
Thus potency for it's debuffs are 39 for Bio II and Miasma and 44 for Bio (39 for Thunder if we count that) Where as Summoner have 35 and 40 respectively. So if we are excluding pets and counting pure debuffs, scholars do more damage (Assuming their mind is equivalent to a summoner's int which is almost always)

But, then two things come up. Fester is a 300 potency nuke that goes 3 times a minute and summoners have damaging pets. Since we include such, which tbqh makes sense since it's an tamer-type class, Summoner out DPS Scholars.

Its just not possible because of :

Enkindle
Rouse buffin pet damage of SMN
Raging strikes
Fester

And ofc the pet hittin all the time. Scholar can deal like 200 dps I think with half 90 half DL, a well played SMN would laugh at that number. Its still a very good additionnal dps tho

But Cleric Stance increases damage by 10%!

And they get Aero!

Isn't that enough to make up the difference?

(Devil's advocate, but the arguments I'm given)

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

But Cleric Stance increases damage by 10%!

And they get Aero!

Isn't that enough to make up the difference?

(Devil's advocate, but the arguments I'm given)

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Any one of Raging Strikes, Pet Damage, Fester, or Spur/Enkindle will make up for that 10% increase in damage Scholars get. Add in all of them and there's no contest.

As far as I've read, Cleric Stance SCH using Selene and all Aetherflow stacks spent on Energy Drains is close, but not quite there, to a SMN. However, when you put Garuda/Ifrit into the equation, especially with Garuda's Contagion, a SMN will highly out-DPS a SCH.

Technically true...A cleric stance scholar does more DPS than a summoner. But a cleric stance scholar does NOT do more DPS than a summoner + summoner pet. It's my rough understanding that Garuda is to DPS output as Fairy is to healing output...

Also, in end game content, a scholar loses a lot of DPS because of lower accuracy. If you're talking about DPS against a dreadnaught in turn 4, for example, the summoner is far superior because of how much the scholar misses.

No. Smner gets more cross tree abilities dealing with overall DD power then SCH. Raging strikes anyone? Also garuda I believe ups the effect of the DoTs by using a skill in its skill set. Our coil SMN outputs crazy damage and he is less geared then I am as a SCH I could never hit his numbers. SCH do great DPS in cleric stance though for certain instances like AK it just isn't anywhere near the DD power of a SMN. If you are curious I can parser program one of our runs I have tested this out many of times. I know DoTs are not calculated correctly on the program but it does give you some sort of idea. ^^

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

But Cleric Stance increases damage by 10%!

And they get Aero!

Isn't that enough to make up the difference?

(Devil's advocate, but the arguments I'm given)

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Borrowing aero as a SCH is a waste of a slot. :<

The misconception comes from the fact that the individual skills of a scholar in Cleric Stance, like-for-like, will do a tiny bit more damage than a summoner. Scholar Bio will tick a bit higher (a bit less than 10% because even though Cleric Stance gives an Int/Mind swap and 10% damage, the base Int of a Scholar is still higher than base Mind by about 15 or so depending on race).

If a Scholar and a Summoner both fire Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio on a target... the Scholar will do a tiiiiny bit more dps than the Summoner. But add in every other skill they have access to and the pet's damage, and it isnt even close.

nothing better to pick as a sch really so why not pick an instant cast dot for the Sh!ts and giggles

While they may not do as much dmg as a SMN, a SCH brings a whole lot more utility to a party than a SMN. Outside of coil (Because of acc issues), a SCH can simultaneously heal and dps at the same time. Lustrate / fairy healing, hop out of cleric stance for 2 sec, all while doing damage. This is the reason SCH is a much better overall, because they can do two simultaneous roles.

For me, a SMN is a gimped SCH, less utility in exchage for fester and a pet who's only purpose is to deal minor damage.

If SCH could use carbuncle, it would out DPS SMN easily.

Is there any reason people think this would be acceptable balance even if true?

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As far as I've read, Cleric Stance SCH using Selene and all Aetherflow stacks spent on Energy Drains is close

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Fester has twice the potency of Energy Drain. Twice. That's not "close".
Raging Strikes is a flat ~5% DPS increase assuming all other things equal and used on cooldown (which it frequently isn't - good SMNs time it with Contagion, other buffs, etc). Cleric Stance is 10%.
SCH do not have Rouse, Rouse is a 40% dps increase on 15% uptime. Assuming no tricks and gimmicks, overall, Rouse is a 6% pet DPS increase. This is aside from Garuda completely destroying Eos/Selene in DPS, not even including Contagion.
On that note:
No Bane.
No secondary pet DPS ability (Aerial Slash, etc)
No Enkindle.
You can make an argument for Selene, but a 30% spell speed buff on 50% uptime (15% spell speed worth of DPS if used on cooldown) doesn't make up for all of the above being missing, even with a group stacked to take the most advantage of it possible.
A (properly geared) SCH's far, far lower accuracy is also a (large) factor, easily meaning they hit at least 10% less - that makes up for cleric stance on its own.

And biggest of all: no Contagion.

You also give up having an AoE Bind in the form of Tri-Disaster, don't forget!

Each of these alone (with the exception of maybe Enkindle) should be enough for people to raise an eyebrow at this suggestion. Altogether? I can't even understand the logic.

To believe SCH outDPSes SMN or even comes close is simply false. Period. And even if it did, do you honestly think that's SE's design intent? Do you honestly think SE designed SCH to outDPS or even be competitive with its sister DPS JOB??

And what makes you think the utility of a SCH being able to off-DPS is any different from a SMN throwing up dots and spamming Physick? Eye for an Eye? Virus?

People who think pets do minor damage are so beyond wrong I don't even know where to begin. This is why addons need to be added and combat log (and therefore parsers) need to be fixed. People get THIS CONFUSED.

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Originally Posted by Borfin

No Bane.

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They get Bane.

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Originally Posted by T0rin

They get Bane.

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So they do. However.

Not with Contagion they don't.

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Originally Posted by Borfin

So they do. However.

Not with Contagion they don't.

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Nope, they don't.

There is really no reason to get emotional about the whole SCH vs SMN DPS debate. The only people that actually think SCH does more damage, are idiots, or trolls. No one with half a clue thinks that SCH is competitive with a DPS class.

As long as the tank uses some cd´s and its a trash situation - 3-4 mobs I feel competetive as scholar. No chance at bossnuking or if I have to use lustrate. A competent sum will outdps me there and finish off some adds at the same time.

It just have really good additional dps ... "additional". ;)

i believe the better question is if an arcanist can compete with a summoner.

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Originally Posted by Borfin

Snip

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You seem to think I'm one of the people who thinks SCH out-DPSes SMN or overall comes close. I'm not, as I said in my post, and especially when it comes to BC.

This has been done before in at least 1 in depth thread, if not more.

To summarize, the answer is no. And I don't mean that rudely, as if you were dumb to ask, because it is a good question and it raises a lot of good points (such as the fact that summoner as a job does NOTHING to increase our primary source of damage, DoTs).

It is closer than you think, but sch loses out because of 4 main issues

1. No accuracy
2. No dps pet
3. You can't actually get mind to be as high as int (because of passive int bonus from ACN, for one)
4. Did I mention no dps pet, because the pet is important.

Though, one thing to consider is that you (might) be able to summon selene w/o cleric stance, then stance afterwards, which should give your faerie good heals while you can do good dps.

So once we can macro selene (for mouseover healing), it may be viable for well geared groups to replace their second healer with a dps scholar w/ faerie heals.

Don't count on it though =)

PS, ACN is also worse than SMN, though for other reasons, namely the fact that its pretty hard to get a full set of Allagan gear (and once you do, theres no point for you to need to go ACN anyway, lol).

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Originally Posted by pandabearcat

This has been done before in at least 1 in depth thread, if not more.

To summarize, the answer is no. And I don't mean that rudely, as if you were dumb to ask, because it is a good question and it raises a lot of good points (such as the fact that summoner as a job does NOTHING to increase our primary source of damage, DoTs).

It is closer than you think, but sch loses out because of 4 main issues

1. No accuracy
2. No dps pet
3. You can't actually get mind to be as high as int (because of passive int bonus from ACN, for one)
4. Did I mention no dps pet, because the pet is important.

Though, one thing to consider is that you (might) be able to summon selene w/o cleric stance, then stance afterwards, which should give your faerie good heals while you can do good dps.

So once we can macro selene (for mouseover healing), it may be viable for well geared groups to replace their second healer with a dps scholar w/ faerie heals.

Don't count on it though =)

PS, ACN is also worse than SMN, though for other reasons, namely the fact that its pretty hard to get a full set of Allagan gear (and once you do, theres no point for you to need to go ACN anyway, lol).

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Being in or out of cleric stance makes no difference on how well the pets heal.