I see threads pop up from time to time complaining about bots or unusual prices on the markets. I like that there is a loud voice against RMT but I personally don't think there is any way of stopping it.
I'm thinking I could give some people an idea of what exactly goes on and why it is so extremely difficult to stop.
First of all, I have RMT'd in the past, both legit and by third party.
By legit I mean by publishers that let you buy into the market through their own systems (Perfect World Entertainment, SOE etc).
By third party, back in middle/high school I sold ladder-only Runewords on Diablo 2 to certain vendors. One of which (I will not mention) gave me a platinum membership for my services which actually used to be worth something (except I understood it as a way for them to make some of their money back so it has been collecting dust for 7 years).
The truth is, the RMT market is too big to stop. I can't really fault SE here because it isn't like any publisher can reliably put a stop to it. At one point the US Government tried to pass a law allowing them to tax WOW gold sold online because of the amount of money that was leaving the country. I haven't looked into it in years but I remember at one point WOW gold was worth more than the Mexican Peso.
Some of you might think "Well, it can't be impossible to design a system that goes after gold farmers" and this is actually true. But it isn't the farmers that keep the RMT going... It's the buyers.
SE can brag about closing 4000 accounts at a time, but right after you see a train of 20 bots "asidgaisheraser" floating around right? This is because the amount of money they are making heavily outweighs how much they are spending to register new accounts. Not to mention the money they make from phishing player accounts(and using those accounts to farm more) and key gen'ing product keys (can you imagine buying FFXIV and finding the key already banned?).
Now the websites themselves advertising game currencies for real money vary rarely do any of the farming themselves. These sites are ran by people who you can consider the "middle man". The business of farming currency is open to anyone who then uses these websites to split profit on what is sold. This right here happens to be my biggest issue with the whole system. The truth is, people who buy game currency from these websites are enabling a business that uses children and other unacceptable measures, all working in abysmal conditions, while only paying them cents a day. Considering how much money is left over it makes you wonder where it all goes?
These "Middle man" websites are literally a front for who knows what really? Buyers could be funding drugs or even arms dealing.
It also isn't just China like most would think. These kinds of places are run all over the world. They find English speakers who try to build a report with players in games sometimes too to try to get them into it, adding them on Skype or MSN and giving them updates.
An example of one such person who approached me
http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e3...t/Aion0154.jpg
Ultimately my point is that the only people that can put a stop to RMT are the people buying into it. There are too many of them, and sadly they don't care. Most will give the excuse that they work too much or don't have time to farm what they need to support their "gaming" but we all know that's crap. Personally even on limited time I find farming for myself to be a part of the game. It is part of the fun. If I had the gold handed to me I'd be desensitized to any accomplishment.
Disclaimer: The money I earned selling ladder-only Runewords on D2 went towards PC hardware upgrades... and maybe a few happy meals :)
Reality of RMT
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11-12-2013, 05:41 PMAsriahReality of RMT, Why Square Enix can't put a stop to it.
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11-12-2013, 05:54 PMstorm
In Tera the cash shop was strictly cosmetic with a few minor quality of life bonuses with limited use, but their cash shop had a system that allowed players to use real money to profit in game from each other. Before they became free2play one of those methods was an ingame item that was a redeemable months subscription. So someone could spend $15 buy the item, and then auction it for in game currency. Once they better developed their cash shop they added cash shop cosmetics that did not bind to the buyers character until use, allowing them to spend money on the item, and again sell it to players.
The reason I bring this up is I was never harassed by RMT in Tera, because Tera had effectively blocked any meaningful rmting by offering a bit of that service themselves, which allowed them to police and monitor it as a function of their service.
Is that the answer for FFXIV? I highly doubt it.
My point is I agree with you the buyers are the problem, and Tera is an example of a company that figured out a way to create a system that used that to their advantage rather than fight endlessly against it. -
11-12-2013, 05:54 PMKsenia
You can get rid of RMT but the game needs to abandon certain notions.
In Lord of the Rings Online "Gold Farming" has a whole other meaning because you can do it in the literal sense. Buy soil, water, seeds and some other stuff all from a vendor and go plant them. Part of what you get in the crop is an optional cooking ingredient of Herbs and they drop at about 50% and vendor for 300% what you paid for the farming items you purchased. You can farm around 3 gold an hour doing this.
You never see people spamming gold for LotRO in the game. You could argue gold there has no meaning and you would be right but the truth is, gil here is on borrowed time. That's one of those notions that would need to be abandoned. That you can create an economy in a static PvE gear based game where nothing gets used up. Much like here, all gathered material is used to level and then it's just baggage. They have potions, they have food and just like here they both drop in the loot table and never get made. Much like here you can level up your legendary weapons and convert them to add on items for the next gen of gear. They even go one step further and let people make those items from single use recipes.
It's all in what you want to surrender as game concepts.
tldr, you need to starve them out. No shard throttle, no gil throttle, no grind throttle. -
11-12-2013, 06:06 PMAsriahYou raise a good point, and I agree that game design is the issue, but if Diablo 2 is an example, you don't really need game currency to have value in order to have RMT a problem. Gold was worth nothing in that game but the items themselves... sold themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ksenia
People usually look at the real money and see it as the main issue here, but it isn't. The problem is that almost every MMO (this one included) has a flawed system in place. These game devs are counting on legit players to keep the market reasonable but it has always been available to people to ruin a market with or without the involvement of real money.
Lets say SE said they just banned 4000 people linked to buy/sale of in game currency for real money. What if instead, you had 4000 people who sat and farmed gold for their own legit uses and ended up screwing up the market anyways. -
11-12-2013, 06:15 PMRi_ri
You have to be a special kind of lazy to buy Gil in FFXIV.
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11-12-2013, 06:16 PMstormThere's a lot of that "special kind of lazy" to go around in the world sadly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ri_ri
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11-12-2013, 06:17 PMPr0c3ss0rIs the same problem with everything. No prostitution would happen if there no one to buy, maybe we should kill all man and make this world 100% girl.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asriah
Same problem go for DRUG, of course you can blame who is buying it, and totally ignore the reason they buying it.
All this BS analogy is getting very old, but guess what, i am happy i am the only one that jerk myself while watching porn, i feel so special that company invest trillion $$$ on SEX online ONLY FOR ME!!! I mean serisouly there anyone else that do it? Trust me, everyone would tell you that i am the only one!!! Dare anyone to say otherwise.
I hope you can read between those line and understand my point.
PS: Ksenia +1 for your post, glad to see someone that understand the real issue. -
11-12-2013, 06:20 PMstormI tried but all I found was beige. o.oQuote:
Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r
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11-12-2013, 06:23 PMCastillan
Anyone read REAMDE by Neal Stephenson? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reamde
The core game that the book describes is written to embrace the RMT'ers as a mechanism for spreading wealth from rich western countries to the poorer nations, and the game as described had mechanisms to support such.
Reading that story, it does explore an interesting angle on the whole RMT thing. Rather than trying to ban, rather, embrace it as a legitimate practise that is regulated in its own way (ie. no chat log spamming, and really there's no need to, if it's legal). -
11-12-2013, 06:25 PMGrundy
Funnily enough I saw this post on Reddit yesterday which I found quite insightful regarding RMT.
http://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen...gilsellersrmt/ -
11-12-2013, 06:26 PMPikken
I wonder how good the market actually is in FFXIV. I don't get what people need to spend gil on? I have never spent any time actively trying to earn gil and I have never been out of gil. If you have one level 50 char that you play regularly, that is reach your myth cap each week, I don't see how you can do a net loss of gil. Honestly, what do people spent gil on?
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11-12-2013, 06:26 PMPr0c3ss0rWell Blizzard tryed hard with they RMAH, it was the smartest idea ever, but they game was so failure =/ Again, as i am the only one watching porn, i was the only one trying to sell item on RMAH, while everyone else was complaining about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Castillan
Sad because Blizzard killing the RMAH in 2014, tbh they should kill D3 instead and would fix the real issue. -
11-12-2013, 06:29 PMPr0c3ss0rThey spend on 2 STAR gear that is close to Allagan/myth gear stats, sometime better(Rare), so in other word, they save time. (is always the same scheme, like SE and other company do it on purpose.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Pikken
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11-12-2013, 06:32 PMSelkieI find RMT in any game to be appalling and TERA's method of "legalizing" it resulted in people obtaining end game gear once they hit level cap without having the skill or capacity to have obtained it themselves. What the company was trying to accomplish was not ridding the game of RMT but making sure that they were the ones capitalizing on it. It still destroys the value of any in game accomplishment to allow players to get ahead with real world wealth.Quote:
Originally Posted by storm
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11-12-2013, 06:39 PMRi_riBut, lesbians...Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r
Anyway, considering the JP servers doesn't have much RMT ads (I don't play on them, personally; just repeating what I've read here), I think what he says is true. If there's no demand, there'll be no supply.
I blame our individualistic culture. -
11-12-2013, 06:42 PMDarkRain
How to kill the RMT . Step one you make the /shout function available only when you hit level 20 . You make the /yell at level 15 this will force the RMT to level a job each and every time an account gets ban . 2. On /tells when someone reports RMT /tells if more then 25 people report the /tell the account gets flagged for review then ban it .3 . Bots witch 90% are RMT 10% are lazy players . How you deal with Bots same way if a player thinks someone is a bot they report them . If the "Bot" gets 25 reports again there account gets flagged , reviewed then ban . When an account gets ban SE needs to track the account to the Credit Card and block that card . Then they need to look at all the sub accounts and ban all of it . Keep doing this every day its not hard . Also need to have people stop feeding the beast . DO NOT BUY GIL!!! simple
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11-12-2013, 06:42 PMstormI don't disagree. That was a problem. And generally is in games that legitimize RMT. My point wasn't about how awesome the system was but rather it was an example of the OP's point. Tera made rmting possible from their own cash shop and as such I never had to deal with aggressive shouts, annoying whispers, or account hackers and code exploiters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkie
It's not an endorsement of the method, it's an observation of the problem. -
11-12-2013, 06:45 PMPr0c3ss0rIt do, but nothing can prevent it. It is a real problem when the company itself start to sell the "short cut", that is mega shame/greedy, unless the game is totally free and they handle all fee with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Selkie
RMAH like blizzard did was the way around it, but they handled it poorly, the game concept was bad, the GOLD dupe with slow reaction was real real bad, the item dupe was bad, the replayability of D3 was POOR as hell, the tracking of who buy/sell was hidden information (unable to tell if is BLIZZARD selling lulz) And Even worse, Blizzard answered: We don't plan to sell item. (They never said they wont ever sell item...) the 15% Fee + 2$ fee was just too much.
OR DO NOT PLAY THE GAME, that also simple. (for who have good job with money and not as much time that you have.)Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkRain
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11-12-2013, 07:18 PMAsriahI feel like you were trying to disagree with me somewhere but then you got confused.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r
Also give the Lesbians some credit of existence would ya.
Ok going off of what I said at the start, "NO TIEM TO FERM GIL CUZ BUSY" Is a lousy excuse, and especially does NOT work in a PvE centric game like FFXIV. You don't have time to farm gil in this game? Where is the rush? Maybe if there was a strong focus on PvP you could try to argue with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r
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11-12-2013, 08:01 PMBladeglory
Let me tell you about
HomestuckRuneScape.
Back before 2008, there was a massive bot and RMT problem. Every area in Free to Play worlds were absolutely infested with gathering and spamming bots. I used to spend some of my free time helping to wipe them out using community power and the Player Moderator ability to mute.
Late 2008 rolls around, and they announce big news. The removal of the entire Trade System. Well, that's an exaggeration, but there was enough bitching about it to make you think that was the case. What was actually removed was "unbalanced trades". Any trade that was skewed by up to 3k gp, in either direction, based on the Grand Exchange's prices, could not be completed. 3,000 gp was not a lot. It also had a time limit of 15(?) minutes, so wealth could still be transferred, but very slowly. They also removed the Wilderness, the PvP area in the north where you could kill people within your level range for their stuff.
This crippled RMT. I'm talking knee-to-balls crippled. They were rolling on the floor, whimpering softly with tears streaming down their face. Suddenly it was impossible to sell any decent amount of currency in any reasonable amount of time.
Now, this went over really badly for two reasons. Both were solved eventually, however.
PvP: It couldn't stay in, because then RMT would just trade via secluded spots in the wilderness. Dangerous for both RMT and buyers. Mini-games and a new drop system for the wilderness replaced the old PvP.
Helping your friends: Removing unbalanced trades kept people from helping out their friends. And I mean legit friends that you're only helping because you like them. This is where things get really creative... Several new systems were implemented to restore function that the trade system had lost.
1) Increasing the trade limit based on the length of time you had that friend added to your Friends List. After several months of "knowing" them, you could make trades that were substantially larger. I can't remember the exact figures, but I'm thinking 3 or 4 times as much. Obviously, RMT accounts can't sit there for 3 months before delivering.
2) Increasing the trade limit based on the amount of Quest Points the account had. This went up as more Quest Points became available, but this essentially worked out to be a sizeable barrier to RMT. Only accounts with a large playtime could benefit from this increased limit (which stacked multiplicatively with the friends list increase) and it was simply not feasible for RMT to sink that much time into an account that could be banned at any time, even before its first delivery. Between these two increases, you could trade 90k every 15 minutes. This was a pretty decent amount to give away to long-lasting, experienced friends.
3) The Assist System. People would often give their friends raw materials (gems, ore and ingredients) and have stuff made for them. This system made that possible again, and actually improved it by making it safer. You, with all your high level skills, would essentially give your soul to your nooby little friend. You would be unable to do anything but end it whilst this was going on. Your friend would do whatever they wanted with your skill levels. You would receive the EXP for what they did, and they got to make their item with their own stuff. This is pretty close to the "Request Meld" system we already have, actually. It's a much safer way to do things and has essentially the same functionality.
Now, everything wasn't perfect. There were always some enterprising individuals willing to do anything in order to get around this. But this solution was effective in making their lives hell. Especially for those first few months when they had no idea what to do. Ah, it was so quiet...
Anyway, eventually this system was repealed. Why? I still blame the new owners of the game and money-grubbing tendencies. RMT reappeared in full force when they removed Restricted Trade. (they barely even tried to find another solution)
TL;DR: RuneScape had a unique solution to RMT. At least as far as I know. It pissed off a lot of players, but eventually PvP and Trade were almost as good as they were before, if not better than before.
I'm not saying FFXIV should go that route. For one, it would involve placing more restrictions on the Market Boards, if not making it anonymous. I just felt like this thread would be an interesting place to dump the story, as it reminded me of what I experienced. -
11-12-2013, 08:15 PMTelsyr
While I agree RMT is a disease it currently isn't the biggest problem thats causing the in-game economy to suffer. Realistically, Free Market economies dont work in video games as NPCS and Players do not need to make a profit to get by, meaning no inflation so players can continue walmarting items well below NPC asking prices. The fact we can get all the items we need for a specific need also destroys the idea of Supply and Demand.
Right now the world of FF14 is entirely a resource based economy, You want something, you can go get it free of charge, unfortunely with gil being used a gate for certain upcoming features this creates pseudo-capaitism ideals on an economy that has no need for currency. Both economy types are extremely flawed in virtual settings however, Free Market and Capitalism invite more RMT transactions, while resource based economies invite more greifers. -
11-12-2013, 09:14 PMPr0c3ss0rya, i agree there =D ***let pretend that don't exist =D (just to do my sheeeeeeeeeeeep) heheQuote:
Originally Posted by Asriah
Well, Coil is the only reason right now, when PvP get out, it be even worse i would assume. I mean if you really think about it, if you just joined the game, you already 2 month behind from myth farming, and you cannot catch it up, your only option is GIL "2 Star item" synth. All the concept of this cockblock is real BAD if you ask me, but what can i do about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asriah
You can't hide the fact that majority of player will examine player and say: "OMG, your gear sux, sorry". Unless that player have his TIME MACHINE and able to go back 2 month ago and do his myth farming. And keep in mind this will go just from worse to worse, unless SE add new content that out date the Allagan/Myth gear, and lulz, you think people will love the concept of this?
Allagan = t1 to t4 = 8 piece of gear for 8 player (so in average 1 piece / week ) (a bit more if you also clear T5)
Myth = 300/week you need (495+825+495+375+825+495+375+275+375+375+900 for relic+1) = Total 5,910 Myth dived by 300 = 19.7 week
And that is for only 1 job, so in best scenario, if you get 1 allagan piece / week, you might finish the whole set in 9 week ***that only if you are ubber lucky.
The only way you can avoid that down time, is to buy the 2 star synth that is close *but not always better*, unless you real patient and love to be rejected from FC/LS. (Or run a time machine if that an option for you :P)
Like Ksenia said, is the game concept/mechanic that feed the RMT bizz. We in 2013, people love performance, they only believe in that, i see many player shout for 1 hours long just to do a 15 min WP run so it meet they EGO. You would say, don't buy GIL from RMT, just farm it!!! Gl with everything at 10~30 gil each because RMT are botting everything in the game =D GL synth ring that need 18 ORE at 25k each (450k) and Disconect in middle of the synth, and all that for a 40k profit... I mean is by far not that simple. -
11-12-2013, 10:34 PMShaone2 star hq'd/max materiaed crafted items don't even come close to ilvl90 gear, and are only a minor improvement on darklight, which isn't affected by tome cap anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pr0c3ss0r
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11-12-2013, 10:40 PMHamHam
One thing people buy gil for is to buy fights. Such as Titan. I've seen people with no craft leveled, they are new to the game, and yet have more gil than a veteran has with all crafts leveled and buying primal fights.
SE should make it against the rules for anyone to sells fights. All gil transaction should be made in the market provided by the game. There has to be market regulation, just like in the real world, even if people don't want it. RMT have made this game very difficult for those that want to participate in the market. The, you'll see a drop in gil buying, though it won't be enough to stop it, at least it will diminish part of it. -
11-13-2013, 05:03 AMSelkieOh! Sorry if I misinterpreted.Quote:
Originally Posted by storm
Although in TERA's defense, it didn't really have a problem with RMT spam even in the beginning before they started systems like chronoscrolls and the like. I think that is largely due to the character restrictions, like being unable to send whispers until you reached a certain level (which I believe was in place or maybe I'm mistaken), etc, and mutes for too many messages sent in trade chat (before global chat existed). As well, it was a much, much smaller game compared to FFXIV so the effort required to level a character and spam others wasn't wholly profitable. Additionally, we had GMs continuously present who would respond to players in trouble who asked for assistance in chat. RMT doesn't stand a chance when you can just insta-ban someone.
If we had a few more cautionary restrictions in place it could help greatly as long as RMT can't trick the server into thinking they're a higher level. The whole create character > spam entire server > delete > repeat cycle, is tiresome. -
11-13-2013, 05:11 AMRyios
Stopping RMT is actually easy, it just hasn't happened yet.
Games like this need a Solid Identification System. A way of tieing their users to a face, location, country of origin, etc. The problem is the anonymity of the internet.
If game companies like SE could tie a single person to their game absolutely, it would be a 1 time banned. You get banned, and no matter how many accounts you make, you are banned, you cannot play the game again, ever, PERIOD.
But to do this, there would need to be some sort of biometric based login system, which just hasn't happened yet, and might not for a long time.
Kind of sad that the very thing that would allow crack downs on RMT, is the same thing people lobby against because they would lose their anonmity on the internet, their abilitiy to download illegal stuff, etc etc.
Imagine if everyone on the internet had a solid identity, with no anonymous nature, and everyone was as accountable for their online actions as they are their Real World actions.... That would change everything, and some day it will happen. Such a system would give game publishers a way of connecting a player with a solid identity and they could create their ban system in such a way that it doesn't ban your account, it bans your Real World Identity (maybe a biometric linked ID Card and they ban that ID).
In the not to distant future we are likely to end up with some sort of identification system on the internet. Game publishers will be required to register their games by category, rating etc etc. And if congress wants to pass a law that says no kid under 13 can play an MA game, then no kid under 13 will be able to run an MA game. And if someone gets convicted of a crime they did in a video game they might lose all their rights to play all games (by the government) and they revoke their access without game companies having any input on the matter.
Seems radical, but in a future purely based on technology, this is the logical outcome. Eventually the two realities will merge. -
11-13-2013, 10:09 AMPr0c3ss0rWow and just wow, how much NSA paid you for this propaganda? When it come to that, ill do same as i did with facebook, ill stop use the service.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryios
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11-13-2013, 10:31 AMZumi
This has been done in other games but the best way to get rid of rmt is to sell an item on the store that is useable in game for game time. For $12.95 someone is able to buy a in game item that when used by a player adds 1 month to their account and is sellable for in game currency.
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11-13-2013, 05:43 PMBloodwillow
I like what EverQuest did.
Get some tokens for being a subber, but a bag of 13k-16k plat from a vendor.
There is next to zero RMT in EQ since then. No point ... can get plat so easy.
Even in EQ2 there is next to none. Buy a Krono, sell it on the market .. BINGO plat.
Need something like either here. -
11-13-2013, 06:21 PMtymora
I still liked that game that moved the UI around a little in a patch and caught all the unwary botters. Was it Tera?
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11-13-2013, 06:33 PMdiulalasing
Nobody can imagine the price some goes for.
Long time ago when EQ first came out, I know a max level cleric, full poh gear and epic 1.0 would sell for around 1000 - 1500 USD
Game money then was really expensive as well, but there are tonnes of buyers, and a few programmers hacking the game making illegal money.
Then there is also powerleveling service as well..
And that's 13 years ago now... -
11-13-2013, 08:42 PMMarenwynn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMKypvmB0
RMT are nothing more than criminal scum. -
11-14-2013, 02:16 AMArgent_WingsI'd like to bring up a counter example: Vindictus. They've had RMT for the last 2 years or so because in addition to selling NX credits for gold(which is against Nexon's ToS), people were STILL buying gold directly from the farmers and that's not even mentioning the player-run bots that were rampant before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by storm