Qs for healers and Tanks

Hi, i was wondering:

as you can see i m a healer wtm lvl 39, just got to titan and was wondering: as a healer am i expected to keep the tank alive while she/he DOES NOT try to avoid aoe? tanks ? healers: how? i become mp starve; even being strategic and using cure / free-cure..
and i haven't seeing a tank that can take 2 aoe of the last boss of flox and getting poison on. How u guys keep up removing 1-2 poison plus healing, and that is no even counting if any dps needs smt.

am i doing something wrong?

PS HEALERS: i haven't figured out the best way to use stoneskin yet. i try at the beginning of the boss, learn that is bad bc slow some attack for tanks. So it seems that the moment to use it is when hp below 30% and spam cure??? isn't this too risky? o.O i mean if tank by 30% i spend time casting stoneskin might no be able to get to heal and tank dead pry even before i finish stoneskin .. no?

thx :)

To which AoE are you referring?

Titan stomps are arena-wide. no way to miss em.
If a tank gets hit by a landslide, its bad party positioning to blame.
Same goes for plumes.

That pretty much just leaves bombs.
If the tank is VERY well geared for the level, I see no reason why they couldn't eat bomb damage, but if they stand between 2 bombs and get hit by both? That's just bad positioning, and they deserve a swift death.

That said, anyone, even the tank, can dodge bombs, and the easiest way to know where to run is to... zoom out.

Yeah, I went there.

oh.. i not talking bout titan..
i was more in general.. e.i. is a tank suppose no to move when sees a aoe?

e.g. the last dragon in flox do this long narrow aoe in front of him that does quite a bit of damage plus poison, they dont try to move .. they take 2 of those, plus poison which stat.. so i either see myself cure and cure, with no time to remove poison or remove poison and very close to die or dead.
in those lines, also the 1st boss... 3 adds doing aoe poison plus aoe from boss.. u dont move to try to avoid at least one?

any advice is welcome.. but i need to know if i could say to this tanks, u have to avoid x aoe or i m not expected to do so and just im not good keeping up.
thx

EDIT and i know they have all those addons to keep them from me, but that doesnt mean u dont have to try to avoid some dmg and i need to just suck it up and heal....does it?

Yes, tanks are supposed to move out of AOE when possible. I do get hit by them occasionally, but I don't make it a constant habit. You might want to explain to your tank that they should move though and zoom out. When i first did Brayflox, I had not dodged any aoes at that point and didn't realize I had to until someone explained it to me. We were all silly noobs once :)

ok thx.. i try telling this to smn and he exploted and told me his gear was good enough to take some aoe, that i needed to keep up. made me doubt that maybe i m doing smt wrong.. :)

ps any healer know bout how/ when to use stoneskin.. or tank when u like that on? :) thx

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Originally Posted by lebirath

ok thx.. i try telling this to smn and he exploted and told me his gear was good enough to take some aoe, that i needed to keep up. made me doubt that maybe i m doing smt wrong.. :)

ps any healer know bout how/ when to use stoneskin.. or tank when u like that on? :) thx

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The only 'nice' scenario that stands out for me where a whm may be interested in tanking is by spamming medica II on Garuda fight, to hold one of the adds.

Also- A PLD also needs to know how to SS himself if the healer is busy healing the rest of the pt, heh.

How I use stone skin is usually after every fight. I know some people try to move on fast, no biggie. I try to at least put stone skin over the tank before a fight but if I find time during the fight or when everyone is waiting over a chest, i quickly put stone skin. Now...if the fight is all heated up, obviously heal and pay no mind to stone skin. Especially during a boss. Put it on before a boss, and I'm sure you rather save your mp rather then waste it during a boss fight so don't put it after it starts.

The more you play and see how stone skin works the more you get a sense on when it is a good time to put it on, sometimes I do put it back on the tank during battle (usually not in boss fight) because it ends up saving me mp.

FYI I'm sure you know, stone skin lasts the longest on tanks, I prefer to put stone skin on everyone but sometimes it just takes one or two hits and it is gone for you or the dps. I have seen some mages only use it on the tanks. So it is all up to you. I just like it on everyone because...yeaaaa.... it doesn't last long for 75% of the group, but it does help prevent damage for a bit just in case you were a little left behind and they went on ahead of ya.

EDIT: sorry i had some typos.

PS: Shouds of Saints works wonders. I know it lowers hate, but it also helps you regain some mp back.

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Originally Posted by lebirath

PS HEALERS: i haven't figured out the best way to use stoneskin yet. i try at the beginning of the boss, learn that is bad bc slow some attack for tanks.
thx :)

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news to me, anyone confirm that it slows attacks?

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Originally Posted by sheepysheepy

news to me, anyone confirm that it slows attacks?

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I use it all the time...first time hearing this. No tank has every told me it slowed their attack and sometimes I don't put it on them to see if they are squishy or not...and then put stone skin...and they seem to attack the same to me? O_o

Tanks should be responsible to get out the way of AoEs. If they are constantly getting hit by them, they are doing it wrong. However, telling them this will usually hurt their pride and they'll get nasty about it. It's not cool, but you are in the right here, you shouldn't be wasting mana on damage they should not be taking.

I always cast Stoneskin between pulls. It usually gives me enough mitigation at the beginning of the fight to use Repose on a few of the other trash mobs that get pulled, making everything easier for everyone (and by everyone I mean my mana pool...). Do NOT throw up Stoneskin right as the tank is pulling, it will give you aggro onto the mobs he pulls and they'll charge you. Usually I try to time a Stoneskin to correspond with the ending of the current pull (as the last one dies, then cast finishes). Works for me :)

Using Stoneskin can differ depending on the situation. If you get WHM or SCH to 50, you will probably find you use it a little more.

My general rule of thumb is:

At the start of a dungeon/instance I will put it on everyone. If it is a multiple monster dungeon/instance, I will reapply it to everyone before each 'boss' battle. This means I can usually get all of my DoTs on the monster as I probably wont need to cast a Cure.

In certain fights you can add it to tanks before a large attack is coming. Examples could be: Everyone's Grudge on the Tonberry King Last Boss in Wanderer's Palace or Final Sting from the Temple Bees in Sunken Temple.

Also if you are doing fights with 2 healers, the tank may not need a heal from you at a point, so popping on a Stoneskin instead is good practice.

Continued below due to character amount restriction:

Another time which is good to use it could be if someone is raised during a fight. After Rasing that person and curing them, a Stoneskin could stop them from dying again before weakness wears off. The time I use this the most is in Titan Hard Mode so that the raised person has a better chance of surviving through 'Stomps'.


A good practice would be to Stoneskin yourself, as due to many reasons such as inexperienced tanks, or other DPS attacking the wrong target, could force you to cure more which could mean monsters attack you. Having that Stoneskin already in place could save your life.

As you get more experience in certain dungeons or instances, you will see where it works best. Even something as trivial as casting it on a BLM that is on sleep duty could help a lot with possible hate issues if the mobs wake up as you wont need to cure the BLM as much.

thx all for the replies... :)

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Originally Posted by Duuude007

The only 'nice' scenario that stands out for me where a whm may be interested in tanking is by spamming medica II on Garuda fight, to hold one of the adds..

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sorry, i didnt get this, what u mean? (pls note im just got to titan, so no idea about garuda fight yet) do you mind elaborating a bit more? why would a wtm like to tank? that sounds crazy and aaaahhhhhhh!!!! :P .. to hold on add? but wouldnt spamming medica 2 draw more aggro to the wtm?? meaning end up with multiple adds that the tank would not be able to remove bc wtm keep spamming medica 2.. no? thx :)

and RE: stoneskin then:
- use it before boss and beginning of dungeons. NO bad point / negative effects for tank.. thx btw didnt know it lasted a bit more on tanks, it goes from me on 1 hit mostly, so i though it was the same on tanks.
- do not use it at the beginning if a pull, to avoid aggro
- use it on me (yeap..)

and others tips in specifics battles.. thx a bunch :)

@kellauchia: thx.. and i ll see what this sounds of shades is.. i dont think i have try it yet :)

edit: gonna bookmark this for future reminder. :)

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Originally Posted by lebirath

ok thx.. i try telling this to smn and he exploted and told me his gear was good enough to take some aoe, that i needed to keep up. made me doubt that maybe i m doing smt wrong.. :)

ps any healer know bout how/ when to use stoneskin.. or tank when u like that on? :) thx

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All roles should aim on avoiding avoidable damage, whether its the tank staying in AE and expecting healer to save them all the time from being lazy (thats all it is, a lazy tank). Or DPS not moving from positioned AE.

Sometimes players do get hit by avoidable damage. Could be due to a simple mistake, latency or anim lock at the wrong time. Happens to the best.

tldr: It is the responsibility of every class to reduce the amount of incoming damage they take in every encounter where possible.

I play tank and dps but I never get other tanks' mentality that you can stand in AOE and expect healers to heal you. Though I see it a lot less in end-game dungeons so I guess the bad tanks got filtered out and that's good. The other day, I was helping a friend with Dhorme Chimera and the tank just stands in the ice circles and I'm like you'd better move or noone's healing you and they don't even realize the whole area is available and keep tanking in a cave where it's hard for me to dodge the ice circle and dps. :|

I stoneskin before the fight and before the next set of mobs, I also try and stoneskin the tank when I know a hard hitting move is about to happen (tonburry king).
For brayflox I usually cast a cure2 if tanks hp less then 50% otherwise a normal cure before I try and ensuna the poison in the last boss fight. The dps is usually just an ensuna and a normal cure if they get poisoned during the fight.
If the tank doesn't move out of the aoe when they clearly can and aren't suffering from latency issues I generally ask them to dodge in party chat and if they still keep just standing there then I just tell them either dodge or don't get cured and do a /sit if they still ignore me. Sounds like I'm being a douche but only way them types of tanks will ever learn.
Stoneskin when you can and if you have the mp otherwise its just a waste of mana as a cure is cheaper and can heal usually for more then what damage the stoneskin can prevent.

Stoneskin prevents 10% of damage based on a players hp so if the tank has 5000hp the stoneskin would block 500 points of damage.
Later on whm gains the ability that stoneskin prevents 18% if damage taken so now the stoneskin would block 900 points of damage. Generally a whm will always cast the stoneskin and protect on a party as they have the better buff rate then compared to that of a sch.
Stoneskin has no bad affects on anyone it is just an ability that will negate a certain amount of damage.
A must have ability you should have on healing is thurmaturges swiftcast ability this way you can instantly cast a raise if needed or any other healing ability you want. I try and save my swiftcast for raises though.

To reiterate several posts, tanks (all players, really) definitely should be trying to avoid the AoE they are able to. Granted, there are certain AoEs that aren't as bad (like the giant magic vulnerability debuff from the Efts in Brayflox's Longstop), most should be interrupted or avoided. As far as Aiatar goes, the tank can pretty much make or break the encounter, especially when any melee DPS are involved. If he/she doesn't pull the dragon out of the poison pools, you're going to have a bad day.

That being said, not all tanks do this out of a sense of superiority. I've been doing Guildhests for the first time as I level my Lancer. During on of the early ones, the Marauder didn't know to move out of the red zone. It wasn't a huge issue, given the level of the encounter, but it was a good moment for education.

I think it was at level 15 (or it could possibly have been level 10), but one of the Gladiator class quests around the level when they'll start tanking makes a point of teaching GLDs to avoid red AOE areas. I don't recall that point being made in the MRD quests, though, so I'd have a bit more sympathy with a low-level marauder who didn't know to get out of the red zone.

I'd certainly hope everyone eventually learns how to avoid AOE damage when possible, though. I can understand occasionally failing to get out of the way in time if it goes off quickly or has a wide radius, but someone who just consistently stands in the easily avoidable ones is doing it wrong.

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Originally Posted by sinfull

Stoneskin prevents 10% of damage based on a players hp so if the tank has 5000hp the stoneskin would block 500 points of damage.
Later on whm gains the ability that stoneskin prevents 18% if damage taken so now the stoneskin would block 900 points of damage. Generally a whm will always cast the stoneskin and protect on a party as they have the better buff rate then compared to that of a sch.
Stoneskin has no bad affects on anyone it is just an ability that will negate a certain amount of damage.
A must have ability you should have on healing is thurmaturges swiftcast ability this way you can instantly cast a raise if needed or any other healing ability you want. I try and save my swiftcast for raises though.

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Swiftcast is a godsend spell. Instant Ressurections/Raises. Also for a Scholar, should the Fairy die. You can instantly resummon her. :)

Um ok so...

OP is not yet at Hard Mode Primals. He is just at Titan Story Mode (Lv. 34) for those of you who seem to be mentioning Titan HM tactics, or even the word "Garuda".

Tanks also have a responsibility to dodge AoE and make life easier for the healer. If they choose to be lazy about it, I suggest you find another party, because it's not worth the stress to put up with players who refuse to perform their role in the party. Tanks have a responsibility to make sure the healer can go on healing them for as long as possible by helping them preserve mana where they can. This includes: dodging Landslides, dodging Weight of the Land, dodging Dragon Breath - pretty much any AoE attack that can be avoided. The longer the healer's mana is able to hold out, the longer the tank is able to tank - please make sure they do see it this way. Some attacks are unavoidable - ie. Titan stomps, so for those attacks you simply have to be prepared to heal.

If they choose to be pricks about it, they are clearly not worth your time. This is when I would suggest you find another party. You should perhaps look into making some tank friends - perhaps join an FC, or an LS on your server, and see if they have people friendly enough to help you out.

As a tank I can 'get a feel' for how hard an attack is going to rock me. I also have a good feel for the pace of a fight and take the time to watch MP and other members to make sure that what I decide is reasonable. If I'm deciding not to dodge (and I DO actually decide) I'm usually using 1 or more defensive abilities to mitigate the damage.


As a healer, I've run in to tanks who dodge everything (gives me time to do more DPS... maybe) and one who dodged nothing, and said half way through the dungeon their armor was broken. There is a careful line to walk when playing a healer about when to DPS, when to use mitigation, and just how low you and your tank are comfortable with their HP.

It isn't your fault they didn't dodge, however just about every fight up till this point you can brunt force past so they may not have known better.

As far as Stoneskin.... before pulls buys you a bit of time to perform other actions (or just let the tank generate hate). If the tank is full/near-full it will provide even more comfort zone. If a major attack is telegraphed to rock the tank, it will help reduce the damage. If you have to walk away from your tank it will give you a few seconds of not needing to mash cure. And for DPS it will 'forgive' them being hit once by not paying attention to agro levels.

hey.. thanks a bunch for all the replies. Great tips

and yeap, i have a FC and linkshell and quite a few nice friends that r tank; that day i was helping a dps friend in an "off time" for our group..

And just wanted to clarified that i m not trying to be a *%+*%# : i understand we all were noobies (still one), and that some tank can take damage (i did flox with one of my friends, got bored and starting dpsing; BORED.. this guy could take DAMAGE .. lol) but yea, thanks for letting me know that all should try to avoid aoe and help c my mp pool :)

thx so much again.. and c all stoneskin tips

also BEAT titan, 3 wipes (even after clip didnt understood 1st the big redcircle, so die 2 :( ) and 4th smooth.. yay!!

EDIT: yeap heard of swiftcast, gonna work on my Thaum :) up to lvl 26 (right no need for more than that?) thx

As far as stoneskin goes, always cast it before a fight, and NEVER use it during a fight UNLESS the person is at or near full HP. Stoneskin negates a certain amount of damage. It can be considered equivalent to curing damage, except that you cast it before the damage occurs instead of after. Unless the tank is vastly better geared than you (I'm talking level 90 gear while you still have just artifact), chances are your cures are going to be more effective. So, if HP is missing, use cures. If HP is pretty much full and you feel them need even MORE HP (They're weakened, or you know the boss will do a powerful move soon), pop stoneskin on them.

Actually, it doesn't matter when you pop stone skin. It gives you percentage shield based on your maximum HP, not current HP.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Actually, it doesn't matter when you pop stone skin. It gives you percentage shield based on your maximum HP, not current HP.

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This is true. However, it's a matter of efficiency. Cure II and Stoneskin have the same cost and Cure II is faster. If you're decently geared, Cure II will heal more than Stoneskin will protect, which is functionally the same (Both allow the tank to survive X more damage).

Cure II is basically better than Stoneskin, functionally, in every way except for one: Stoneskin can help the tank even if his HP is full. That is why I say never cast it on the tank unless a cure would overheal.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

This is true. However, it's a matter of efficiency. Cure II and Stoneskin have the same cost and Cure II is faster. If you're decently geared, Cure II will heal more than Stoneskin will protect, which is functionally the same (Both allow the tank to survive X more damage).

Cure II is basically better than Stoneskin, functionally, in every way except for one: Stoneskin can help the tank even if his HP is full. That is why I say never cast it on the tank unless a cure would overheal.

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While I mostly agree with this, when I use stoneskin in a fight I actually will use it before a cure 1 if they are above 70% health. The reasoning is that stoneskin takes longer, so if I get a freecure from the cure 1, it is usually lost before I need it. So 70% health, enough time to cast stoneskin, then cure 1, 15% chance of freecure for the next heal.

This mainly works well in fights with phases, where at each phase you get sudden spike damage, but have long enough intervals in between to cast stoneskin. By the time the spike happens they have full health +18% and I have a very good chance of having a free cure 2 ready to go. I find the freecure happens often enough to offset the cost of the stoneskin, and the stoneskin creates enough of a buffer to make those phases less stressful.

hmmm... that s a very neat strategy.. i ll see if im fast enough to try it .. i think that tend to use the time that my tank is full in HP to cure/ release status from my dps

I come from many years of playing on consoles by myself. Which means I have the horrific habit of using any class like a tank. However I do know how its supposed to work in group only the healer has limits. I think everyone should take healer to at least level 10 to get a feel for what its like and see the restrictions on spells.
Medica does nothing for a party member on the other side of the dungeon because they have left the epicenter. Also the healer is vunerable no matter what their level...once the mp runs out it takes 30 seconds to be able to use ether again. So be careful out there lol.