As we've seen with certain classes, gear scaling really changes how the classes can play, their relative DPS towards each other, and how good they are in ideal conditions. A certain fact became transparent early on when our gear was lower, WARs couldn't easily deal with higher content as PLDs could. However, in proper gear (and I know you WARs are out there with maxed out characters), does this balance change?
With a well-geared WAR (and healers), can you survive damn easily through anything up to and possibly including Twintania? While everyone in my FC is a PLD, and I've never done BC with a WAR, it just seems to me like now, with current gear levels, WAR PLD should be the most efficient and quick way to clear BC now, from mowing down T4's adds to debuffing bosses for more PLD and WAR DPS. Is that way off base? Do top-end FCs still prefer PLD PLD? I can only speculate that the way the SE team said WARs are fine, they meant in iLVL90 or hybrid iLVL70 + iLVL90, and when you reach that point they ARE working as intended. However, for all I know, PLD PLD is still best and healers use that to their advantage to throw out extra DPS.
Also, not just BC, do max iLVL WARs work well with current speed run strategies?
Any near iLVL90 WARs here? How is it?
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11-12-2013, 03:13 PMSleighAny near iLVL90 WARs here? How is it?
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11-12-2013, 03:25 PMRuckus
I'm 50 WAR/50 PAL. I leveled PAL because they are categorically better for Coil with few exceptions.
Turn 1 PAL all the way. I've done it as WAR with success, but your healers will cry and have less of an acceptable margin of error.
Turn 2 WAR. ADS attacks can't be parried or blocked. I sometimes go PAL so we can cheese the last 25% by switching Hallowed, but it isn't necessary.
Turn 3 doesn't matter.
Turn 4 I prefer WAR. Waves 1 and 4 are so much easier for AOE threat generation without getting gassed. PAL is preferable to your healers, but OT doesn't take any super intensive damage so WAR is perfectly acceptable.
Turn 5 I go WAR, but only because I am not MTing. I doubt we will see a WAR MT Twintania till 2.1.
Depends on your definition of top end FCs, but all Twintania downs I've seen had PAL PAL. WAR/PAL is feasible, but just that much harder. People going for world/server firsts don't take handicaps. -
11-12-2013, 03:41 PMAunaYuuki
Two tanking twintania....in general isn't needed. There are videos with one tank but of course they are well geared. Tank switching is a strat and our WAR goes through all the coils just fine. Turn 1 he did it in half AF gear. For the majority of the turns besides T1 I am main healing the WAR as a SCH without any issues. Our warrior has 8k hp currently. We always run WAR/PAL combo just as much as WHM/SCH. Our WAR always says though he will probably not MT ever and if that day comes it won't come until 2.1 like Uncle Ruckus stated. If you have a WAR that knows what they are doing it can make coil easier or much harder. We have never run double PAL so I can't really say if it is easier, but we have never had any issues. Half our coil group are made up of 2.0 players and 1.0 players. Our tanks are both new 2.0 players and I am very proud and happy to have met them.
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11-12-2013, 04:38 PMfuzz
As a WAR you need to be geared far further than a PLD in order to do the same content, or, have an extremely competent healer who understands the mechanics of the fight (how the boss hits, and when) and how your class works.
Once you get geared you can do essentially what Ruckus said.
-fuzz -
11-12-2013, 05:49 PMPaikis
Disclaimer: My FC is in turn 5, I have tanked everything in the game on my Warrior and Twintania is the only thing we haven't killed with me tanking it (or at all yet). I also have a 50 PLD.
Bad Warriors will never be able to tank things that bad Paladins can. They will try, fail, and then blame it on the PLD having better cooldowns. Good Warriors have never had an issue tanking the vast majority of content (Dreadnaughts are about it). At the end of the day, a Paladin will run out of major cooldowns (here I include Hallowed, Sentinel and Rampart) eventually and at that point it becomes effectively a Warrior that can't heal itself and has lower damage/enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sleigh
Mathematically, PLDs are better spike tanks with the Warrior being the better consistant tank. But the gap is no where near as wide as most people think. Both tanks need to know when the big hits are coming, and both tanks will need to have something available to deal with those hits. For a PLD, they use a mitigation cooldown before the hit lands. For the Warrior they heal themselves either before the hit, after the hit or both.
Let's take Titan for example (because most people have done it). Mountain Buster hits every 30 seconds. A Paladin will be rotating cooldowns for these hits, and will have a cooldown available for most of them. But the third (or 5th if you use Hallowed for the 3rd) will hit and the best cooldown you have is Convalescence. For that hit, the Paladin is a much weaker tank. This pattern continues, occasionally leaving the PLD 2 MBs in a row with nothing to use. Meanwhile the Warrior has Inner Beast available for every single attack, and twice on every other. Berserk, Featherfoot and Second Wind can be used for every third MB, with Internal Release being used (every second MB) on each of the double IBs. For the Titan fight at least, once you have a minimum amount of gear (lets say full Darklight) the Warrior is probably the better choice for that fight, as it handles the Mountain Buster damage spikes much better and everything else is trivial.
I expected people would have figured this out by now, but most people simply look at average mitigation over the whole fight, and if that is all you consider, then the Paladin wins hands down. In practice, there are periods where a Paladin simply has no cooldowns of note, and the Warrior becomes the better tank for that period. That amount of time can be up to a minute in length, depending on how good/bad your PLD is at rotating his buttons. -
11-12-2013, 10:06 PMRuminateAll of Titans attacks can be blocked. A block reduces more damage than Rampart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
Flash improves evasion more than Featherfoot. It can also be used before every Mountain Buster, Rock Buster, and autoattack combo.
Rage of Halone's debuff reduces about as much damage as Foresight. It can be used before every burst combo.
Sentinel + Flash + Rage of Halone 1st
Rampart + Flash + Rage of Halone 2nd
Bulwark + Foresight + Flash + Rage of Halone 3rd
Invincibility 4th
Rampart + Flash + Rage of Halone 5th
Sentinel + Flash + Rage of Halone 6th
Bulwark + Foresight + Flash + Rage of Halone 7th
Rampart + Flash + Rage of Halone 8th
If the healers are bad, the PLD can do even more by watching for the landslide, count 2, then cast Stoneskin on themselves and partially absorb either the MB, or the previous RB. A 500 absorb Stoneskin(im undergearing the PLD) can increase eHP more than a 1500 Inner Beast(im overgearing the WAR) depending on which cooldown the PLD used.
If the group doesn't have a BRD, MNK, or they're bad/lazy/dont know, PLDs can even silence tumult after the third stomp, allowing the healers to focus more of their healing on the PLD instead of the raid.
....its interesting how the current belief is that PLDs are simple and therefore easy to play.
Are PLDs really simple, or do players simply not need to play one effectively to get through an encounter? -
11-12-2013, 10:27 PMBigpurpleharnessI think they're suffering from snowflake syndrome. Since Warrior is bad you're going to have three types of people, people who accept that (They may continue to play WAR because it's fun, but know a PLD is better, or reroll) then you'll have people who swear PLD isn't and it's sooooo simple, even though they have more cooldowns by a mile to use effectively than a WAR who's cooldowns simply aren't capable of being an effective clutch save like a PLDs. Then you have the people who just swear WAR is as good (Or in some cases, better!) than PLD for everything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminate
Personally, I love WAR, but I would love it more if they made us as effective as PLDs, and we were more active. The fact that actually using our wrath without infuriate up is ineffective is stupid. -
11-12-2013, 11:52 PMPaikisIt's a bit of both. Your basic, entry level Paladin can be a complete idiot and still clear most content. Playing it well though does allow for a very effective tank, in most situations being more effective than the Warrior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruminate
Ah, another one who looks only at the averages. Using Inner Beast is trading some long-term healing for some right-now healing. This is important to surviving damage spikes. Extra healing is great and all, but you have to be alive to receive it. There are several cooldowns you can use to make up some of that 15% difference as well, convalescence being the major one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigpurpleharness
There are problems with the class, sure. Paladin is a better tank, sure. But it isn't the best by such a large margin that Warriors cannot complete content. -
11-13-2013, 12:32 AMEhayteGood job. For reals, you are actually being of service to this community. Keep posting and helping people understand WAR strengths and mechanics. Theorycrafting is poisonous for WARs, and specific rotation strategies are great for new tanks or prospective tanks to hear and understand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Paikis
I play PLD (after many weeks of self-deliberation) because I believe that the damage reduction tank is going to be the mainstay "Main Tank," I could be wrong in the end, but that is my conviction. I still keep my WAR geared up and relic'd and all that because I find it endlessly useful to help new players with my WAR, especially helping new FC members in NM primals, where I can go the last 15-20% of the primal with the WAR without external heals, where-as a PLD would flop on his face and eat dirt in 10 seconds. -
11-13-2013, 06:22 AMRhazeCain
Regarding the OP's original question, cause I think it's interesting: I'm closer to ilvl 80 myself (bad luck on coil tank drops), but my perspective is it's about the same. WAR have tanked Titan now, where didn't really expect that before. WAR is adequate as an offtank coil 1-4. FC does that 3x every week. Twintania, not sure yet. Speedruns maybe WAR has just a little bit of an advantage because can both Flash and Overpower. This allows more AEs before running out of mana/TP, and does some damage unlike PLD spamming Flash. But there are some times where PLD has a significant advantage, and almost none where WAR shines.
Maybe some folks can get value out of WAR heals more than I have. But what where I typically die is to spike damage -- not consistent damage that a healer can't keep up with. (For spike damage self healing requires you to react, but that's not possible if you're already dead.) So really self heals do almost nothing for me. Maybe the occasional "my group died with demon wall at 10-15%, so I solo'd it" or letting the healer do DPS, but that's about it.
In concept, WAR could be really good. In other MMOs you might have like: Tank1 does least damage, but more utility and niche defense abilities. Tank2 does moderately more damage and has adequate defensive capability for all situations. In that scenario, I would happily take Tank2. Currently WAR here doesn't fit that description. But buffs are supposedly upcoming, and even if doesn't do exactly this, then hopefully no worse than just going PLD. -
11-13-2013, 06:33 AMTekkaTakedahttp://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/commen..._5_kill_kinda/Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruckus
Easy enough to get to Twisters w/ WAR MT. This seals the deal.
PLD of course is easier to get through most content. I don't believe anybody is arguing that though. Nice breakdown on how you split the class usage! -
11-13-2013, 08:55 AMBigpurpleharnessNot really what I said, but you can use me to vent, that's fine. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Paikis