Limit Break needs to be changed

We're having to white DPS on Twintania because we push her to Divebombs too fast.
As a result, we don't build a third bar of limit break until she comes down, so the snakes don't die in time.

This is stupid. The gauge should either scale with DPS or ensure a minimum on phase changes.

If you have proper DPS you shouldn't be reaching level 3 limit unless your tank is dipping low too often. Learn to do it with a level 2 limit and move past it, don't rely on the level 3. In fact, sitting there and auto attacking will just bring you closer to the hard enrage.

You shouldn't need level 3 limit for this. Weaken the first two snakes, limit 2, and then single target rotation the other two snakes. At this point everyone should be able to go HAM with cooldowns and defeat the large snake easily.

The point is that we have to change to a new strategy, which is more risky, because we have too much gear. It makes zero sense.

then put on your old gear and do your old strategy

#problemsolved

Is this post just to (attempt) to show off DPS?

If you have "so much" DPS, you should be fine with lesser LBs in the snake phase.

Boo hoo you have to adjust strategy instead of just following someone elses, I'm so sad for you.

Obviously is your strategy no the right one. DPS zerging isn't the solution. Why should SE change the fight in your favour. Let your DPS adjust and not load out all they have.

Unbelievable...

Adjust your strategy. Raiding is not about looking up a walkthrough and simply following it to the letter, it's about overcoming challenging content and finding a method that works for you.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

Adjust your strategy. Raiding is not about looking up a walkthrough and simply following it to the letter, it's about overcoming challenging content and finding a method that works for you.

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Except we don't need to adjust our strategy. We can spend a minute doing white DPS in P1 and have three bars, but doing so makes absolutely no sense.
The problem here is that SE has shown that they're willing to design mechanics with the intent of a limit break being used to get past them, which makes future encounters questionable.

Imagine a harder encounter with less room than the snake phase, where a level 3 limit break is the only way to get past it.
Alternatively, imagine spending dozens of hours learning an encounter, downing it, and then after a few weeks having to come up with an entirely new strategy because the first one you came up with relies on a level 3 limit break.

'Your DPS is too high, you'll have to either stop using the strategy that's worked for the past month or white DPS for a few minutes.'
I'm sorry, but you have to be retarded to try to justify this as good encounter design. Once an encounter is on farm, it should stay on farm.

Wait, encounter is becoming easier because your DPS is ramping up....?

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Wait, encounter is becoming easier because your DPS is ramping up....?

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No, it's becoming harder, because we don't build enough LB.
We have to stop DPS for a while, so more limit break builds, or use a more complicated/risk-prone strategy on the snake phase, as a result.

This is what doesn't make sense. It's not particularly bad on Twintania, but it could be game breaking in future encounters, unless the way limit break builds is changed.

It is a good point, not exactly sure why limit break isn't based on dmg done. alternatively you could get lots of people get hit by fireballs(liquid hell) and build faster LOL

If DPS is ramping up then killing using limit 2 on the adds should be enough because of your elite phase pushing DPS.

alternatively, you could just sit back and autoattack to conserve mana, I've heard that SMNs had a lot of mana issues on that fight! :V

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Originally Posted by FUNgineer

If DPS is ramping up then killing using limit 2 on the adds should be enough because of your elite phase pushing DPS.

alternatively, you could just sit back and autoattack to conserve mana, I've heard that SMNs had a lot of mana issues on that fight! :V

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The problem is that you need 4 stacks of whatever the debuff is called, so you have to hold the two snakes for a long period of time, which in turn results in less overall damage to the big snake (compared to having a level 3 limit break).
No matter how high your DPS is, you aren't going to down the big snake before Twintania drops with i90 gear, unless you have the debuff stacked.

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Originally Posted by Yenn

The problem is that you need 4 stacks of whatever the debuff is called, so you have to hold the two snakes for a long period of time, which in turn results in less overall damage to the big snake (compared to having a level 3 limit break).
No matter how high your DPS is, you aren't going to down the big snake before Twintania drops with i90 gear, unless you have the debuff stacked.

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You might be killing the second Hygieia too soon. Here's what we do:

Kill one Hygieia, take the second one to low HP, DPS Asclepius until next set of divebombs begin, kill second Hygieia after 1st divebomb, finish divebombs, LB2, finish off the Hygieias, finish off Asclepius. We often have a good 10+ seconds before Twintania lands doing this method.

Again though, raiding is about finding what works for your group. Experiment a little and see what you can do to improve.

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Originally Posted by Zaft

You might be killing the second Hygieia too soon. Here's what we do:

Kill one Hygieia, take the second one to low HP, DPS Asclepius until next set of divebombs begin, kill second Hygieia after 1st divebomb, finish divebombs, LB2, finish off the Hygieias, finish off Asclepius. We often have a good 10+ seconds before Twintania lands doing this method.

Again though, raiding is about finding what works for your group. Experiment a little and see what you can do to improve.

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We can kill it with a level 2 LB, but the point is that the encounter shouldn't become harder and previously working strategies shouldn't become unusable because our DPS is too high.
It just doesn't make any sense.

You can intentionally get someone killed to a plummet and raise them, this will probably raise your LB bar enough to reach LB3 by the snakes if you are truly dependent on it.

LB2 strategy isn't really that much more difficult. In a LB3 situation you just use your cool downs on Asclepious but for LB2 you use them on the 3rd and 4th Hygeliea to kill them quicker which results in a net gain of DPS (more 4 stack on Asclepious) and the kill/death time of Asclepious is actually very close to the same in both situations.

Theres actually a lot of variations how to actually deal with the snakes, besides what has even been posted. For instance you could get Hygleia 1 and 2 to 50% from AoE damage and then just do single target damage to Asclepious (which even with 0 stacks should get taken down a bit). You could then drag everything together, and LB2, which kills snakes 1 and 2,and gives 2x Debuff to the 3rd and 4th snakes which means they will drop very very quickly and just AoE on Asclepious to kill them or single target etc. Just gotta think of what works the best for you.

I think it is fine the way it is. This adds a level of strategy, even though I am sure it was unintentional. It is a nice thing to have to change strategies as you progress, even if it is the same boss. Otherwise, you would end up burning it that much faster and do the same exact routine. At least this way, the experience changes week to week for you.

Plus the surprise is kind of awesome. I remember on many occasions where I had become stronger and something no longer worked. A great example is WoW and Dragonsoul. granted it still sucked, but it was awesome when the raid realized that, 1. we had become even more efficient and stronger than expected, and 2. no one had a freaking clue what the hell happened. Total chaos when we kept pushing phases.

Agreed, each job needs it's own unique limit break not a shared one. Things like a Monk bringing out a sword for a fist inspired move (Final Heaven) need to be addressed and LB should feel natural to job. Seriously a Fist inspied LB bringing out a sword? WTF?

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Originally Posted by Irenae

Agreed, each job needs it's own unique limit break not a shared one. Things like a Monk bringing out a sword for a fist inspired move (Final Heaven) need to be addressed and LB should feel natural to job. Seriously a Fist inspied LB bringing out a sword? WTF?

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Dragoon bringing out a sword makes more sense?

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Originally Posted by Irenae

Agreed, each job needs it's own unique limit break not a shared one. Things like a Monk bringing out a sword for a fist inspired move (Final Heaven) need to be addressed and LB should feel natural to job. Seriously a Fist inspired LB bringing out a sword on Monk? WTF?

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fixed that for you.

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Originally Posted by Vektrat

Dragoon bringing out a sword makes more sense?

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Not really Lance != Sword.

You can adapt, but it all depends on your party setup. There is a way to get a level 3 limit break easily while straight dpsing the entire fight, and it is probably possible with a 5 dps setup, I just don't think that that setup is ideal so we probably won't ever be testing it. The way the limit break builds for "heroic" actions is a pretty stupid concept though, because I can't think of a situation past Ifrit other than almost letting a party member die that will build the limit break bar. So it is basically rewarding you for being bad.

Hmmm, we auto-attack P1 to build limit. Hadn't considered just going HAM the whole time and just single targetting down the first 2 snakes (staggered so that stacks don't fall off) and then just using L2 AoE on the second set.

Not sure if that's a better or worse strat though tbh. Hard enrage is tighter if you waste time auto-attacking, but L3 limit hits the small snakes for like 75% of their health.

Kind of a tough call. Curious what other groups who have also killed it are doing.

Our current strat is auto-attack P1, making sure we build at least L1 before collar drops, then when snakes drop, burn down small one as fast as possible, get 2nd one low, during 2nd divebombs finish second snake, LB3 on the second set of snakes, then blow all CDs on big snake.

We've ran into this problem and we fixed it by having me (monk) do more bootshines instead of DK during phase 1 since crits seems to build it. Also Scholar Sacred Soils every red mark. We also don't have the tank run into conflags unless it's a double healer or he's out of cooldowns. If that still doesn't do it, we force an extra conflag right before divebombs.

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Originally Posted by WutangRZA

Our current strat is auto-attack P1, making sure we build at least L1 before collar drops, then when snakes drop, burn down small one as fast as possible, get 2nd one low, during 2nd divebombs finish second snake, LB3 on the second set of snakes, then blow all CDs on big snake.

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You can do that exact same strat with LB2, you just have to use your cooldowns (Blood for Blood, Internal Release etc.) on the 3rd and 4th Hygleiea to kill them quick enough so that the debuff drops off you before Aetheric Profusion; and killing the big snake without a large amount of cooldowns isn't really an issue.

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Originally Posted by Zdenka

You can do that exact same strat with LB2, you just have to use your cooldowns (Blood for Blood, Internal Release etc.) on the 3rd and 4th Hygleiea to kill them quick enough so that the debuff drops off you before Aetheric Profusion; and killing the big snake without a large amount of cooldowns isn't really an issue.

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I thought the debuff was only physical, didn't even think it affected profusion? (Still might make sense to cooldown the small snakes to get the most uptime with 4 stacks on big).

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Originally Posted by WutangRZA

I thought the debuff was only physical, didn't even think it affected profusion? (Still might make sense to cooldown the small snakes to get the most uptime with 4 stacks on big).

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It's worded incorrectly. It effects everything.