What is the reasoning behind not separating Sch and Smn stats?

One strength of FFXIV is the ability to play all classes on the same character and switch between them with 1 button click.

Why is it that someone that plays either Sch or Smn is forced to sacrifice the primary stat of one, for the other.

You can argue about 15/15 or even that 30pt don't matter, but if you want your job to be the best it can be, 15-30pt do matter.

What is the reasoning behind forcing us to share stats between 2 separate jobs, that have 2 totally different roles and main stats?

I can understand, lvling balance that you only have to lvl 1 and can play both, but by now a lot of people are past the point where being the 1st or 50000th lvl 50 matters anymore.

I'm asking why? And pleading to separate the stats of Summoner and Scholar from each other so we can freely switch between them at any time and play either role at their best, rather than having to spend 10k tomes every time we truly want to play one and then switch back to the other.

More than likely, its because Jobs are still Class based, so they cannot seperate them from each other due to the shared Class. This would also be why as say... a Paladin, Cure is Cross Class, while Fast Blade is not (you are actually still a Gladiator)

I'd imagine just laziness. Since it's probably not as easy as just flipping a switch. They probably have to do a lot of work behind the scenes to make it work.

The game isn't alt-class friendly anyway, so I find it's not that big a deal since you'll be spending your Myth on 1 Job.

Because they want you to choose the one you'd prefer to strengthen most. Anyone who calls it a lockout is insane, you can still be an effective SCH if you statted for SMN.

You can also buy stat resets if you demand that you be able to be the best at everything.

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The game isn't alt-class friendly anyway,

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This is a load of crap as well. This game is alt class friendlier than any other game out there. There's no rule that says "to change to this job and play it for any purpose, you must have all ilvl90 gear."

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I'm asking why? And pleading to separate the stats of Summoner and Scholar from each other so we can freely switch between them at any time and play either role at their best

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No. ACN gives you a 2 for 1 deal on jobs. They want you to choose one of them that you'd like to favor. It does not render the other job unplayable, no matter how much you'd like to think so. This is another case of "wah wah, I must have everything let me ahve everything! gimme more, more is always better!"

This simply occurs because most humans are unable to make decisions.

Because Jobs are not XI Jobs. Jobs are meant to be skill trees. In every game you have to pay something to reset your points to stat into another tree.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

This is a load of crap as well. This game is alt class friendlier than any other game out there. There's no rule that says "to change to this job and play it for any purpose, you must have all ilvl90 gear."

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No it's not. In any other MMO if you played a different class you could do everything your main could, not in this game.

Yet another example of bad design and a job shoehorned into a class at the very last minute. Hope you have 10K GC seals whenever you want to switch between them because 30 INT or 30 MND do matter. So much for the liberty of the armoury system.

No reason, it's kinda silly and should be separated.

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Originally Posted by Kopuno

Because Jobs are not XI Jobs. Jobs are meant to be skill trees. In every game you have to pay something to reset your points to stat into another tree.

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Yes, but the other 5 or 6 jobs don't have to suffer this balance issue, which is the point the OP is trying to make in case it was missed.

Still, that in mind, I'd like to say in the future there will probably be more jobs, some of them sharing the same classes, so a lot of jobs in the future will likely be facing the same "problem" SMN/SCH Are now... by then maybe they're update it... Personally I wouldn't mind them placing a cap on individual stats but allowing us to get more than 30 to spread by some sort of merit/overlevel system that many games offer.

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This is a load of crap as well. This game is alt class friendlier than any other game out there. There's no rule that says "to change to this job and play it for any purpose, you must have all ilvl90 gear."

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I think hes talking about the fact if you want to properly gear your jobs in anything I.lv90, You either have to get lucky on Allagan or wait months and months to gear up a second job. This game has the ability to cross-class but it does have a lot of restrictions that make gearing up a secondary class more difficult, not limited to the Mythos cap... (Such as once a week only for Coil)

Limitations of the worthless class system they left in. We currently have 8 classes no one in their right mind plays past level 29 because they are worthless when compared to their jobs, even in a solo environment. They honestly should just drop the class system altogether and stick with jobs only from here on out.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

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I hope you use also buff food, if 15 int or 15 mind is so much important for you

How many who complain about it eat buff food each dungeon run to get really every int or mind they can get?

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Originally Posted by CHunterX

Limitations of the worthless class system they left in. We currently have 8 classes no one in their right mind plays past level 29 because they are worthless when compared to their jobs, even in a solo environment. They honestly should just drop the class system altogether and stick with jobs only from here on out.

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You can't level a job without level the class the same time. Each exp go to the class ^^

Really hoping to see this changed in 2.1 or 2.2
Just wishful thinking

Is there an inherent problem with MND stacking as a SCH, and then switching on Cleric Stance for SMN?

I don't know. I've not played SCH/SMN, and play as a WHM, but it seems to me that stacking in MND would be the way to go based upon my WHM experiences. A MND stacked WHM in cleric stance mode is fearsome in its damage output.

And somewhere else people are complaining about lack of customization for the character.
(Here, you have 3 choices (sch+, smn/sch, smn+), instead of just 1...in which case, they might as well do away with the bonus attributes since just about everyone is going to pile on the primary stat)

I would imagine this is not just going to stay but it will be expanded upon.
E.g. WAR+ or DRK+...etc

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Originally Posted by Castillan

Is there an inherent problem with MND stacking as a SCH, and then switching on Cleric Stance for SMN?

I don't know. I've not played SCH/SMN, and play as a WHM, but it seems to me that stacking in MND would be the way to go based upon my WHM experiences. A MND stacked WHM in cleric stance mode is fearsome in its damage output.

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SMN doesn't get Cleric Stance.

It makes you pick one to be a main rather than anything else but at full i90 sch/smner you can easily go full vit and do your job. There are multiple reasons behind it besides "bad programming." I guess many people haven't played traditional mmos on forums. Why do people continue to bring up this? There are already 1000 posts about it go cry there.

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Originally Posted by Calyanare

SMN doesn't get Cleric Stance.

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That....is stupid. I just checked, yeah, SCH gets it, but not SMN? Now that is silly setup, especially with SCH and SMN having MND/INT relatively close together, unlike WHM.

-One of the main selling points of the game is the hability to play all classes in one character.
-One of the classes with has to choose between two completely different roles to play effectively in endgame scenarios.

Classes are an old concept that just doesnt work, remember that jobs were released so that the game could be changed into something resembling a FF title without completely losing all the progres we had made so far in 1.0.

The ones who suffered this the most were Conjurers who suddenly became healers and thaumaturges who could no longer heal, yet SE decided that the class concept should be kept for lore and adaptavily (Imagine having to rework the entire city, questline and NPCs by elimitating the classes in 1.0) so they kept them and since progress was saved to ARR they still exist now,

The prupose of "Using class for solo content" just doesnt work for one reason, there is no such content in ARR,

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Originally Posted by Castillan

That....is stupid. I just checked, yeah, SCH gets it, but not SMN? Now that is silly setup, especially with SCH and SMN having MND/INT relatively close together, unlike WHM.

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You don't really get why Cleric Stance exists, do you?

Cleric Stance doesn't exist so Arcanists can cheat the bonus attribute system. Cleric Stance exists so that healers, who are stuck wearing healer gear and wielding healer weapons, can get a boost to their offensive power so they can do solo content.

Basically so you cannot exceed at both. Imagine leveling 1 class and being able to effectively heal for sch and dps as smn, so in a duty finder with 1 class you can que as either. Meanwhile other players are forced to really play as what their selected class is. Bottom line SE does not want you to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Anyway int and mind are slightly useless stats imo. With every int increase as a mage your dps barely will change by any means and same goes for mind, your heal without 30 min will drop maybe 40 points, but sch is a crit oriented healer so big deal about you base heal losing 40 when it does not crit. With crit heals granting a broken barrier it does not really matter if the barrier has that extra 30 mind on it, since it will only mitigate about 100 more damage. Basically just choose 1 to stat or stat it with all vit or vit/pie because again that extra 30 for either class is a debateable increase.

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Originally Posted by Nahara

You don't really get why Cleric Stance exists, do you?

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A little more condescension please. You only hit 9/10 on the meter.

I'll leave y'all to whining about the topic of the post now.

The reason is because they are all Arcanist stats. No jobs have stats, only classes do.

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Originally Posted by Ashgarth

-One of the main selling points of the game is the hability to play all classes in one character.
-One of the classes with has to choose between two completely different roles to play effectively in endgame scenarios.

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I've got bad news for you buddy: The only thing stopping me from playing all classes on my one character isn't my stat distribution. I've played the entirety of endgame SCH with only 10 points in MND. Not once have I heard somebody ask what my stat distribution is, or even complain that I just couldn't heal enough. No, the biggest hinderance for end-game multi-classing is gear availability and advancement. If you want to complain about "having to choose," direct it towards gear lock-outs.

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Originally Posted by Castillan

That....is stupid. I just checked, yeah, SCH gets it, but not SMN? Now that is silly setup, especially with SCH and SMN having MND/INT relatively close together, unlike WHM.

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Well, SMN could get Cleric Stance, but you'd have to give up either [Thunder, Swiftcast, and Surecast] or [Raging Strikes and Quelling Strikes] for [Aero, Cleric Stance, Protect, and Stoneskin].
Besides, Cleric Stance would be completely useless after ilvl 60 gear unless Demagogue/Casting gear got MND values equaling 80% of their INT values or SMN could wear Strategos/Healing gear.
So no, it's not stupid. It's designed so that Healers can DPS when they're not healing.

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Originally Posted by Snowaeth

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Your answer is here :

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...SMN-SCH/page15

And also, XIV is not XI, they're different games based on the same franchise, that's all.

It's like saying "oh but in WoW you can do this and that".

You have to decide between SCH or SMN, that's all the reasoning behind it.

10,000 GC seals can fix your problems if you want to respec.

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Originally Posted by Bladeglory

No, the biggest hinderance for end-game multi-classing is gear availability and advancement. If you want to complain about "having to choose," direct it towards gear lock-outs.

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Almost everything in the game can be completed with i70 gear, which there's no lockout on.

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Well, SMN could get Cleric Stance, but you'd have to give up either [Thunder, Swiftcast, and Surecast] or [Raging Strikes and Quelling Strikes] for [Aero, Cleric Stance, Protect, and Stoneskin].

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...Okay, Summoners can't get Cleric Stance, because they can't equip Conjurer abilities. But you seem to already know that, so...what? Seriously, what's the point of this statement? That SE could change your secondary/tertiary classes?

...I guess they could...?

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Originally Posted by BlaiseArath

Yes, but the other 5 or 6 jobs don't have to suffer this balance issue, which is the point the OP is trying to make in case it was missed.

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The other...wait, wait, wait. There are 9 Jobs. Two of them are tied to Arcanist. So there are 7, not 5 or 6. That's your first mistake.

The second mistake is...well, duh. Of course they don't have to "suffer this balance" issue, because they don't have secondary Jobs yet. Therefor, the path of progression is just Tank > Tank, DPS > DPS, Healer > Healer. In the future, they'll be adding in secondary Jobs for ALL of the classes, so that Gladiator can go Tank > DPS, and Conjurer can go Healer > DPS, or Lancer can go DPS > Tank.

Like the person you quoted said, Jobs are basically skill trees, or specializations. AFAIK, Most MMO's have used them to an extent, and it's something a lot of people have been asking for(customization in the Job department), this is just FFXIV's way of bringing that about. Instead of having a Paladin that can DPS, though, they might implement a Dark Knight as the DPS Spec for Gladiator.

I 'm sure once more classes have more than one job, we'll see them add the ability to distribute bonus stats based on job and class, right now only 1 class "suffers" from this "problem".


Why untangle the Christmas lights in July.

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Originally Posted by FMElan

...Okay, Summoners can't get Cleric Stance, because they can't equip Conjurer abilities. But you seem to already know that, so...what? Seriously, what's the point of this statement? That SE could change your secondary/tertiary classes?

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It was a response to SMN not having Cleric Stance being "stupid." That Summoners would have to lose good DPS abilities for defensive abilities (and Cleric Stance, which I later went on to explain wouldn't work anyway)

Forgive me, I wasn't clear. I don't think lockouts are a big deal so much as a -larger- one than point allocations. Yeah, things can be done in ilvl70, just like you can do heal with 0/30 points in MND. They're both making you choose, but choosing which class to gear first (or if you want to split your choices between two) are going to have much larger repercussions than Allocations. I could heal in Coil with full DL and Omnilex +0 if I wanted, (and I have, once) but I'd be far, far more effective in my shiny Valor armor.

Well the stat passives are for the class it self.

Jobs basically are extensions of a class role. While you lose cross-skill options, you are given more stats and skills that will improve your role depending on what role you play with that class.

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Originally Posted by Bladeglory

It was a response to SMN not having Cleric Stance being "stupid." That Summoners would have to lose good DPS abilities for defensive abilities (and Cleric Stance, which I later went on to explain wouldn't work anyway)

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Yeah, y'know, after re-reading the post with that in mind, it makes a lot more sense. Sorry, the misunderstanding's probably on me. Finals week, so I'm kinda juggling four different projects at once. >_<

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Forgive me, I wasn't clear. I don't think lockouts are a big deal so much as a -larger- one than point allocations. Yeah, things can be done in ilvl70, just like you can do heal with 0/30 points in MND. They're both making you choose, but choosing which class to gear first (or if you want to split your choices between two) are going to have much larger repercussions than Allocations.

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Ehhhh. With the increase to Mythology, and the fact that they'll probably be decreasing the amount that you need for patch 2.2(at which time most i90 players will probably have at least two Jobs fully outfitted in Myth gear), I don't see it as such a long-term issue. Yeah, it kinda sucks at the start, when they first introduce content, but considering the fact that i70 is still useful right now, I don't think i90'll be useless until they start implementing i110, in which case i100 will probably be a ton easier to get.

...I used a lot of i(number)'s there, so I hope I was clear. Like I said, working on a bunch of stuff right now, so my brain's kinda scrambled. And I may have come off as defensive at first due to the sheer number of people complaining about how it's "impossible to gear alts."

What's that the Class system hampering the job system? Colour me suprised.

Can't wait until they tear it out of the game one of these days.